[roselee]

How can being attached to caregivers and teachers be a red flag?? If there are other signs such as lack of eye contact to caregiver or adopted parent, or completely different behavior at home, I can understand. I really don't understand the reasoning.

So, are what you are telling me that every child attached to caregivers and teachers are red flags. Lets just red flag every child that has oppositional problems at age eight, for example, and call that child Oppositional Defiant Disorder because of a lil' red flag or perhaps lets call children autistic because they are slightly delayed in their speech and line up cars (but in fact they may have the engineer type mind), or how about the child that is a little distractable but doesn't meet the DSM criterion for ADHD. Again I am a psychologist and have tested over 600 kids. I dx kids myself. Look again at the DSM diagnosis - a red flag doesn't necessarily mean RAD.

This child will most likely have some attachment problems, there is not question about that! But true RAD is different Your RED FLAGS to me could have many different reasons as I have already mentioned. Read the other posters comments three posts up from mine. She is also a qualified professional who has experience about dx and the many various factors involved. Again, I appreciate your comments and do realize that group home is SOOOO different than what we will experience.

I just get really upset when unqualified professionals without the appropriate training try to dx a kid they have very little knowledge about and aren't even qualified psychologists. Especially when they go off little red flags like the child actually attaching to caregivers or teachers. Gosh, in that case I must be RAD, too because I really attached to my caregivers. In fact all my friends must be RAD, too.

Also I am not underestimating the likelyhood of RAD, I think most of you are overestimating the likelyhood of RAD because you read books and have an RAD child, so you think that you are the true experts regarding all kids that are older and live in a group home. Yes, you do know a lot about your child but not about every child.

Again, there are so many other factors. Please realize that and accept what I have to say to and not debunk it.

Again there is a possibility of RAD but through your readings you know how RAD is actually rare, and sometimes over diagnosed!!! Please let the actually dx come from qualified professionals.

Oh, and you're right. I don't have all the answers regarding this child's history. They don't even know who the father is. But, I do have some and know how to get more.

Thanks
karin

[Lorraine123]

How can being attached to caregivers and teachers be a red flag?? If there are other signs such as lack of eye contact to caregiver or adopted parent, or completely different behavior at home, I can understand. I really don't understand the reasoning.

I wanted to explain my reasoning. I feel that a child in a group home cannot fully attach to their caregivers. The caregivers are not doing 24/7 therapeutic parenting. They can't. First of all they are not there 24 hours a day, second, they have other patients to attend to. Therefore, my thoughts are that the child is fooling the caregivers, and that is a "red flag" to me. The child can easily appear attached in a group home setting. Its superficial, same with school. If my daughter's teacher came home and said that my daughter was attached to her, I would laugh, actually I would be very upset. A group home setting is not conducive to attachment. That is not their goal.

I'm sorry that you think we parents of RAD children are "unqualified professionals." Believe me, I am much more aware of RAD than many "professionals" we have met with. It takes much more than having a degree in psychology to understand these children. The only way to fully understand them is to live with them day to day.

We were just trying to help point out a very real possibility that you may have to live with. Sorry you didn't see it that way. I wish you luck with this placement.

Lorraine

Lorraine

[lucyjoy]

I'm jumping in here late so forgive me if I missed something.

I'm not sorry I took any of my children. I love them. However, I have 2 that will never love me back and likely won't love anyone. It's heart breaking and it's hard everyday.

I have 9 children. 7 were unattached or RAD, 2 had issues with attachment. I have a child who lives very well inside a facility. He appears to attach to people. But he does not. He did abuse the other moms he live with, but never abused outside the home but likely would begin doing so with girlfriends. In the facilities, the people are paid to be nice and treat the kids the same regardless of behavior. My son can adapt to that. He cannot adapt to living with people who love him or expect him to give back.

I do have kids that have healed, kids who have improved, none of them were easy to parent.

It's good that you have attachment therapy in place. It's good that you are researching. Keeping strong structure as they have in the group home is a good idea for starting out. I would also limit what you put into the childs room to start with. Some of my kids really had a tough time accepting a lot of things. And taking care of them overwhelmed them. It's easier to start out with less and add then to have to remove things.

I would also suggest keeping a log of behaviors and things. It's good for establishing patterns or finding behavior triggers. It also can be helpful if a child makes false allegations against a parent.

I hope your placement is successful. I know it sounds negative when parents warn you of possible issues. We do this as we wish someone had warned us so we could have been prepared. Would I do this again? Yes, but with my eyes very wide open and greatful to know the worst case possible-what a blessing if it doesn't happen that way.

[Faith65]

Lucyjoy,

you said it well! Your whole statement is so true. B was in residental for a year plus before she came to live with us. Had 10 placements before that. And the 8 years of abuse and neglect at the hands of her biom and her many boy friends. She has been with us for 9 mos now.

Why was she in residental before coming here? Attachment issues. Behavior issues and many other things. Every 3 to 4 months moved. Everyone that we have worked with or spoken with before taking in B was their concern and wanting her out of residental so maybe she could attach in a family and heal and love others., because residental isn't the place to love and be a family. She was never going to get it in residental. If you walked in and observed B one would say she attached to her caregivers but never really deeply or fully. It was all survice.

We work daily on her attachments. We have worked with some therapist that had no clue what was going on in B's mind or world and they are soppose to be trained and knowledgable in this area? Yah right! We have come across a couple that really have helped us and B and contuine to. We have a step forward with two or three back. We love her with all our heart and soul. I don't regret ever bringing home. I have done this in the past foster. B is here to stay once TPR and adoption in finalized but my finance never loved or cared for a child with attachment or RAD before. He thought he got it before and that she wasn't so hurt but ask him now and he will tell you it's a eye opener. Noone prepared him enough. He loves her but most likely would never go this route again. B will be our one and only.

I believe what others are saying like I, that it's not what you expect. These kids need so much. Yes, some will heal, some won't and some will most likely need help throughout their lives at other times. We are just sharing, warning you that there maybe more hurt and pain or not.

We are all for the same thing to love our children and others.

[Lorraine123]

If you walked in and observed B one would say she attached to her caregivers but never really deeply or fully. It was all survival.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it more clearly. I was trying to say that the children CANT be attached to their caregivers in residential. But children with RAD are great at appearing to be. Thats why it struck me as something to be very wary of.

Roselee - Please realize that we are just trying to prepare you for what may come ahead for you. Its not something that can't be done. I mean, read this thread, you will see many of us who are doing it, and successfully I believe. We just want you to be prepared, thats all.

[roselee]

We are meeting our potential child tomorrow. I am praying that God gives us clear signs about whether or not to adopt. If he displays some of the major red flag signs, then I will may have to make the hardest choice in our life and say no. I don't know. I will just continue to pray. I am worried that he may immediately say "hi mom and dad". If he does that, then the decision is made up and I know that is one of the classic signs of RAD - major signs!! If he is superficially sweet or has any of the other red flags, then again we may have to say no. Oh, he also stated that he was excited but wasn't nervous at all. Why is that? Is that typical, too??

You are right, how can you attach really attach to people in the group home. It is different. They are SOOO structured there and have such as structured award system that he almost can't seem to get out of or deviate- even a little. As I talk with these people in the group home more and more, it is SOOO different than taking him into our home. Very different!!

We are scared and I am very sad because I already feel like this kid is part of our family, but I also have to consider the warning signs. If they are really flagrant then I really need to head those.

Most of you said that I may not know until the child lives with us for awhile, that is scary, too. It's so hard right now, because I really feel it's the Lords will that this child is in our live but RAD is very serious. Even if he isn't full-blown, you're right, he will have some kind of attachment problems.

If he enters our life, I know that our lives will completely change. My spontaneous unstructured life will take a 180 turn to structure, organization, which is actually a good thing). I am also nervous about that. Am I able to do that? I know I can do reward systems and all of that jazz because that's what I studied in school. However, we didn't study RAD at all!!!

I can already tell that this child will be very attached to my husband and my later take things out on me, which is another sign!! I am not blinded. RAD is very rare and this child can be somewhere on the spectrum, but he will be somewhere on the spectrum.

My child is 2 1/2 years old and this child is 10 years old. The group home counselor is very honest and stated that his world and thinking is very different than the average thinking. I asked her if he is possible RAD. She stated that although he doesn't have major warning signs at the group home, there could be a strong possiblity. She told us we can't rule anything out like you did!!

What do we do when we approach this child. Approaching a possible RAD child or a child with attachement disorders is different. I feel I should know the answer to this, but I don't.

I don't think I have ever been so nervous in my life. We are about to make the biggest decision of our lives that will literally alter our life path -possible in a very good way or in the opposite direction.

Please please respond tonight before I leave. It is 12;00 am and I leave in 6 hours.

Karin

[Faith65]

Karin,

What I would do is go slow! Bring a game with you to play at your first meeting. Maybe Sorry or something like that. Keep it light and fun. Remember you don't have to make a dession today. Your 2 1/2 yr old will take the back bunner for a long time I am sorry to say. This child will need you 100 %. YOu will need to be a full glass and milk and then some daily. Yes, sturcture is big key. I also wouldn't let him alone with your 2 1/2 for a long time too. He will have lots of aniexty that might come out in the wrong manner to your son or animals. B did this with our dogs but nothing really serious.

I would also suggest doing lots of visits before bringing him home. Start at the place he's been at, then day trips, then to your house for a day, then over night , then weekends and such. He will most likely ask if you are his new parents. I would say I am not sure but we want to be your friend and get to know you and you know us before we or you make that dession.

Remember, he will most likely put his best foot forward for a while. Just be yourselfs. Have faith.

Keep us posted! Enjoy the day.

[ajjhmf]

Karin,

I'm sorry I'm getting this after you've left, but I will send my prayers your way.

I think Faith65 has a good point about taking it slow. If at any point you feel apprehensive about the match, take a step back and regroup before you make a decision. As far as seeing signs of RAD, it is VERY hard to do at first meetings. It took us about 2 weeks after placement to figure out the D had attachment problems. By the we were in love and ready to do anything.

Honestly, I wouldn't bring an older child into my home with a younger child. I'm a believer in sticking within your families birth order. Your 2 1/2 yo isn't going to be able to defend him/herself should something bad happen and will likely pick up behaviors the older child may bring into the home. It's a very hard place to be when you realize one child hurt the other in your home under your watch. I still have a hard time with forgiving myself for what D did to J while he was here. (I didn't realize you had a toddler at home or I would have told you this sooner.) Constant supervision is on answer shuld you decide to pursure this match, but it VERY, VERY hard to do. We had to do it with D and J. It abut killed me being at that state of hypervigilance all the time. Some people may be able to do it, but consider whether you think you can handle having your children within your sight at ALL times.

I hope some of this helps.

Blessings,
Jenny

[Lorraine123]

I also didn't see this until after you left. Sorry.

I agree that it will be very hard to see RAD on visits. It really won't rear its ugly head until the child is living in your home. We did see signs of RAD when visiting our daughter. She called us mom and dad on the first visit. She climbed into our van without question. She gave us hugs freely. Everywhere we went she was over friendly with strangers. But the biggest thing we saw was that she wanted to be in control of everything we did. There was nothing big, but lots of little things. Its strange, but I couldn't pinpoint a lot of behaviors as RAD, but as we spent time with her, I would get a funny feeling in my stomach that things were weird. I don't know how to describe it. Also - you probably won't see much if you visit in the group home because he will be on his terf.

With RAD, you often have to look at the past of the child and surmise what the future holds. Sounds scary, and it is, but, very often these children aren't diagnosed. And this is for various reasons. Either the present caretakers don't see the behaviors or they don't want to know because then the child is harder to place and the subsidy will be greater.

I would be very cautious around your younger child. Jenny had some good points. You need to realize that this child will be a role model for your younger child. But mainly I would keep an eagles eye on the two of them. We watch my daughter with the dogs vigilantly.

A RAD child takes all of your time and energy. Be sure you are able and willing to give everything you have to this child. Building attachment is a 24/7 job. You will give and give and you get nothing in return. You will feel like you are being sucked dry.

I'm not trying to talk you out of the placement. Just letting you know what to expect. We were told that our daughter was "the poster child for RAD" prior to placement. So we willingly accepted a RAD child. We felt that it was something we could deal with. But its the toughest job I've ever done. I don't believe my daughter will ever heal, but I do feel that I have made a difference in her life. I don't think she will ever love or feel true empathy, but she knows how you are supposed to behave and she tries to act accordingly. I have learned alot about myself through her. And I thank her for teaching me that.

Please keep us posted. We have all been right where you are today. Having to make this life altering decision is tough. My husband and I still talk about the day we met our daughter and had to decide. We both say it was the most stressful day of our lives. I remember meeting her and my heart was pounding so hard that I thought you could see it through my shirt. Be sure to think with your mind, not your heart (easier said than done). And good luck to you. We all understand.

Lorraine

[Faith65]

Ok, how did the first meeting go? What was his reaction to you and your husband and what was yours?

I hope all went well but no matter what this is a journey in life. Without taking this step you wouldn't have learned something new. You wouldn't have meant someone new and possibly begun a new journey.

Waiting to hear.

[roselee]

FINE - You all are right in one way or another!!! I am torn up and in tears because I see it!

We just got back home after visiting this child, I will call "dcharmer". He is in WA state and we are in OH (although we are from WA state originally). Everything you have said to me is starting to make sense.

First of all, the group home that he is coming from is good but is run like a boot camp. There really was not a lot of emotion...at all. We barely saw a staff person smile because they were so busy making sure the kids were doing what they needed to do (only 6 kids). Honestly, it reminded me like a prison or half-way house. This is probably the reason why transition period is important (going from a group home to a foster home) not most restrictive to least restrictive (such as an Emotional Disablities self-contained classroom to a mainstream setting with no special ed supports (((school psych here)))).

When we picked "dcharmer" up, he immediately waved and smiled. He calls us by our first names (which is a very good thing - I think ), instead of saying "mom and dad" and he did not give us a hug (which was my number one red flag to say "no"). He was very nice. However, our two year old was "out of control"
He was on a very VERY long airplane ride and so much attention was on him during our group home visit. We tried our best. This was not typical behavior of our son but we could blame him, the plane trip sucked!!

We arrived in time to meet the staff at the group home and to hang out before dinner. We went to dinner and the "little" control issues started to arise almost immediately. The waitress escorted us to one table and "dcharmer" immediately choose another table.
I had to agree with him on that one because I personally didn't like that table either, but I did take that as part of the control issue (maybe I have control issues because I do that, too.).

That control issue continued A LOT throughout dinner, especially with our little son. Our son was loud, refused to eat, etc. Our son is usually good but flying from OH to WA was very long and we were all tired!!


This child, I will call "dcharmer" got our son to eat (our son is very picky). However, our son copied EVERYTHING that "dcharmer" did. Some of the inappropriate behaviors such as taking chopsticks and banging them on every piece of dish. Then our son wanted to do that. So there we had to explain to 'dcharmer' out that wasn't a good idea. When we were trying to redirect, the lack of eye contact was EXTREMELY evident!!! We were being nice about it, but firm. He did stop that but really took notice how our son did copy everything. They ended up playing cars together during dinner or we would have left because of our son. He was very good at keeping our son occupied, and we let him. Although a part of me wondered if it was a diversion technique to avoid talking with us.

The next day we went out on the town and the control was so little but very constant. It ranged from pleading to eat "ice cream dots" at 10:00 to this and that... it was a lot. Re: the ice cream dots - we told him if we all had a good day (not just placing it on him), that we would have ice cream after lunch. He still begged and pleaded but we just didn't make it an issue. So, when we didn't get into the little control battles, he did look a little defeated but than went on to the next thing. He was still very good with our son, but as the day progressed he was seemingly becoming less attached to us. He also went to the bathroom about 7 times in two hours. I read that when he is extremely nervous, he has a lot of bowel problems. A funny, but possible control issue was when we were getting off an elevator with a lot of Seahawks fans (about 10). When we got off, he yelled "go Panthers". That was very funny, but he told us before he was a Seahawks fan. The people all laughed and one person stated that "our son was a very brave kid". We got pictures of us in the Space Needle (the pics where you can spend extra for a frame). We asked dcharmer, if he wanted one and he said, "no, that's alright". When I stated that I was going to get one and we really wanted to get one for him, he then said "alright", but had little emotion attached to that.

We then went back to our hotel room where my mother and our son's cousin (our son's age) was there. We wanted to have a quite dinner with "dcharmer". We found a place to eat but during the ride he said a few things that got us. He asked if he could finish up the school year at his current school, then he said really quickly "Oh and maybe 5th grade, too". He wouldn't expand. Just a few weeks ago on the phone he was asking if he could move in with us next week. Right before he said this, we stated that we wished that we could spend more time with him because he was such a great person. He then looked like he was ready to cry. It was a few minutes later, he said the above.

Oh, before dinner he was begging for us to take our son with us. We knew why. We felt he knew we wanted to get more personal and talk and our son is a perfect diversion. When we finally sat down to dinner, we had normal chit chat. He had fun turning his water into a gross "double dog dare you to drink that" thing. A normal thing 4 graders would do...I did that. Then he asked for a balloon from the waitress, which he purposely let go. I looked at him and made a slight joke. I said "you did that on purpose, huh". Of course he said, "no, it just slipped". I joked with him and said "yeah, whatever, you just want to use your charm and good looks with the waitress to see if she'll give you another one and you know she will, right"? He looked at me, smiled and said "maybe". Then, he said, "you got me, yes". Throughout this conversation, he was completely looking at me in the eye. Then was the time for serious conversation regarding adoption.
He tried so hard to diverge. While my husband was talking, he would interupt and say "OH, please pass me the sugar, etc". I finally stated, "You know we are trying to have a serious conversation with you that may be hard so I will only give you your sugar if you PROMISE me you won't interupt us and listen to us for a few minutes.

He was fine, we told him thought he was a great kid and asked him to be truthful about how he felt about us. At first he said that he thought we were funny and very nice. Then he said he was very concerned about the age difference between my son and him. I think he was trying so hard the night before to impress us with his big brother skills (which most of the time were really good - for the very brief time we saw him). He said that he worried that he would always have to entertain him and that although he really liked our son, he got really tired after a while. He then said that he would love to have a bigger brother or one that is the same age.

Then he mentioned that for two years, he has never been allowed to go to his friends house afterschool or have his school friends at his group home (that part is understandable). He stated that he felt very apart from his school peers and has a hard time knowing really what normal is. He then said that could be the reason why he was feeling the way he was about being nervous about adoption with us and the age difference. We told dcharmer that we all needed time to think about the adoption to see if we were a right match and that included him. He agreed. Again, he said that he really liked us but was just a little nervous about the age difference thing (of course there is more to it then that)

I personally can understand the age difference thing. I did feel that way with my sister who is 8 years younger. I loved her so much, but always felt I had to entertain her. I loved to entertain her but it really wore me out and then I felt guilty.

The strange thing is that after that conversation, he wanted to go next door to ToysRus to get a gift for our son. Since he was so open with us, we decided that would be fine. What surprised us is that he went past all the toys he liked and looked at items that our son would like. He kept saying "OH, "N" would love that. I would love to see him play with that. So, we picked up a little something for "N'.

Then, I asked him to pick out something for himself. He first said, that's alright, I don't need anything. We convinced him and he picked out something...that was actually pretty neat. At this point, I was almost in tears and didn't care if he picked out a $100 item for himself because I felt that we were probably not the right family for him. I really just wanted to get back to the hotel room for he can say bye to our son and get him to his current home.

When we got back to the "hotel" room, he was really stalling. He did not want to go back to the group home (or was it that he didn't want to say goodbye). We would like to think it was the second one, but we will never know. He really seemed to get a little teary-eyed saying goodbye to our son. When we brought him back to the group home, we said our goodbyes and told him that we don't want him to feel pressured at all. This is a big decision for both of us.
I initiated the hug...I had to just to see what he would do. He gave both my husband and I half hugs and said goodbye.

Most of our time together was good, truly. It doesn't sound like it, but it was. However, the warning signs that you all have mentioned were clearly there and it was only a day and a half we were with him. I know that he was trying to get as much out of the day as he could because he really lead an extremely structured life and hasn't experienced a lot.

I am in constant tears right now I can't even explain to you! I will wait, as one writer said. We will wait, process, read more, and talk to this child on the phone a little more. We will also see what his counselor can get out of him regarding the visit. Our worst fear is that he decides to go with us, not because he likes us, but just to get out of the home.

The chances of us actually adopting him our about 30% yes, right now. There are just so many things that are son could pick up, so many things that dcharmer needs to learn, etc. We really need a clear sign. I have been praying, but feel that God has been unusually silent in the past few days. Why??

I will keep you posted