[kimber413]

I think there are a couple of things everyone unfamiliar with Russian adoption need to keep in mind:

Masha's adoption was completed over 5 years ago. Masha's adoption was completed ILLEGALLY, meaning the agency did not complete all the proper paperwork, accepted money under the table (single men are not allowed to adopt from Russia), paid bribes to officials that handled the adoption, did a poor excuse for a home study, etc. The Russian officials have been punished by Russian authorities, the agency in question is no longer allowed to process Russian adoptions, and many, many more hoops were added for those of us adopting from Russia to jump through in order to complete an adoption.

Was what happened to Masha terrible? Of course. Does it happen all the time? OF COURSE NOT. But threads like this started by folks unfamiliar with the CURRENT process of adoption from Russia (and by many comments here, it is painfully clear that many are NOT familiar with the current processes, nor do they wish to be) only serve to hinder those of us who have or are in the process of adopting from Russia. They hurt the prospects of the tens of thousands of children there waiting for homes with loving parents. They serve no useful purpose other that to stir the emotions of OTHER people who have no clue what the current process of adoption from Russia is.

Unfortunately, just like in gun control laws, additional adoption laws will only be applicable to those folks who wish to adopt LEGALLY. Illegal adoptions are the problem, and they can always be processed under the table somewhere, no matter what laws are added, just like anyone that really wants to own a gun can get one, whether they are illegal or not.

Would standardized home study rules help on this end? I'm not sure. The rules are pretty standard for Russian adoption. As someone else said, there are police checks, FBI checks, psych evaluations, medical exams, biographies, letters of recommendation, photographs of home and family... literally hundreds of pieces of paper signed, notarized, and apostilled to complete a LEGAL Russian adoption. I dare say if most bio parents had to go through what we went through before they could physically have a child, we wouldn't have as many problems with overpopulation. But biological parents don't have to do that paperwork, and neither does anyone that wants to pursue an illegal adoption. And I don't think any amount of additional legislation, additional paperwork, additional "hoops" will do anything to prevent illegal adoption from happening. It'll just leave a bunch of kids who could have had a good home with a loving family sitting in an orphanage in Siberia waiting to time out so they can join their friends in prostitution and drug abuse.

[Katie63011]

Kimberly, you couldn't have said it better! To quote bromanchik - Amen, Kimberly, Amen!!!!!!!!

[Southernroots]

We will have to agree to disagree, because I cannot buy your premise on gun control or adoption. Just because people circumvent laws in regards to both, doesn't mean that we should throw up hands up and say. "Oh well, bad things will just happen sometimes."

We have to put forth our best efforts to protect children - it's that simple. And if that means you and others adopting have to jump through more hoops, ect. - sorry, that's the price you must pay. I am not unsympathetic to your plight, but, I have to put childrens' best interest before yours.

If harsher regulations slow down adoptions in Russia, that's the price we pay for protecting those children who are currently being adopted. Of course no one wants to think of children languishing in homes because the regulations are stricter. There have been way too many tragic events occuring the past few years in Russian adoption. Personally, I can't condone ignoring the flaws as they surface so that it makes it easier for adoptive parents to adopt from Russia. Or, even to allow more children to be adopted knowing that so many tragedies are occurring with the ones who are being adopted.

I dare say if most bio parents had to go through what we went through before they could physically have a child, we wouldn't have as many problems with overpopulation.

That comment is one that I am afraid to even touch. But, I think it is highly uncalled for in this discussion and very reflective of your disdain for bio parents.

P.S. The fact that Masha's adoption was handled illegally only means to me that we have to take measures to insure that it will be harder for it to happen again.

[aimeemk]

Originally Posted by kimber413

I think there are a couple of things everyone unfamiliar with Russian adoption need to keep in mind:

Masha's adoption was completed over 5 years ago. Masha's adoption was completed ILLEGALLY, meaning the agency did not complete all the proper paperwork, accepted money under the table (single men are not allowed to adopt from Russia), paid bribes to officials that handled the adoption, did a poor excuse for a home study, etc. The Russian officials have been punished by Russian authorities, the agency in question is no longer allowed to process Russian adoptions, and many, many more hoops were added for those of us adopting from Russia to jump through in order to complete an adoption.

Was what happened to Masha terrible? Of course. Does it happen all the time? OF COURSE NOT. But threads like this started by folks unfamiliar with the CURRENT process of adoption from Russia (and by many comments here, it is painfully clear that many are NOT familiar with the current processes, nor do they wish to be) only serve to hinder those of us who have or are in the process of adopting from Russia. They hurt the prospects of the tens of thousands of children there waiting for homes with loving parents. They serve no useful purpose other that to stir the emotions of OTHER people who have no clue what the current process of adoption from Russia is.

Unfortunately, just like in gun control laws, additional adoption laws will only be applicable to those folks who wish to adopt LEGALLY. Illegal adoptions are the problem, and they can always be processed under the table somewhere, no matter what laws are added, just like anyone that really wants to own a gun can get one, whether they are illegal or not.

Would standardized home study rules help on this end? I'm not sure. The rules are pretty standard for Russian adoption. As someone else said, there are police checks, FBI checks, psych evaluations, medical exams, biographies, letters of recommendation, photographs of home and family... literally hundreds of pieces of paper signed, notarized, and apostilled to complete a LEGAL Russian adoption. I dare say if most bio parents had to go through what we went through before they could physically have a child, we wouldn't have as many problems with overpopulation. But biological parents don't have to do that paperwork, and neither does anyone that wants to pursue an illegal adoption. And I don't think any amount of additional legislation, additional paperwork, additional "hoops" will do anything to prevent illegal adoption from happening. It'll just leave a bunch of kids who could have had a good home with a loving family sitting in an orphanage in Siberia waiting to time out so they can join their friends in prostitution and drug abuse.

AMEN TO THAT!!!

You have brought many FACTS and KEY POINTS to the discussion!!! Masha's adoption was over 5 years ago. I was in the process for 16 months (2003-2005)and can remember numerous law changes.

Our documents included (I am sure I am missing a ton)

Initial application (background checks)
Homestudy good for 18months
Fingerprinting by local, state, and FBI
Medical exams by specialist every 3 months
Approval by BCIS
Marriage license (had to be married for 5 years)
Birth certificates
No history of sexual abuse or illegal drug use
Age over 25
Non family references x 5
Psychiatric exam here and in Russia
Financial statements means had to be greater than our debt in our region
Pictures of our home and family
Letters from employers stating that we are "good employs"

Follow up evaluations with a licensed medical social worker.

All documents had to be notarized and Apostilled.

So I agree there are loopholes, but there are loopholes in every law. This man is a criminal and he broke the law all the way around.
I can tell you for a FACT that the laws have changed since Masha's nightmare started. Also the laws have changed since the killings of Russian children by their adoptive parents. NO MORE INDEPENDANT ADOPTIONS. SO please educate yourselves a little on the CURRENT laws of Russian adoption before you go stirring the pot!!

[angelkisses0102]

Kimberly...thank you for taking the time to post what so many of us involved in Russia adoption were thinking...yet our thoughts were being clouded by emotion...by the knowledge of we went through...what our poor children went through prior to our adoptions. What some of our kids are still struggling with from the horrors inflicted upon them in orphanages.

I have to live the rest of my life, as do many of us, with the memories of what I saw in Russia, of what our court documents state happened to my children. So many of us are very passionate about Russian adoptions...about getting these kids out of there. If you had experienced what we have...you may be able to understand our deep, strong feelings.

No process, anywhere is perfect...no laws go unbroken...and the vast majority of Russian adoptions are legal...

[aimeemk]

Originally Posted by Southernroots

We have to put forth our best efforts to protect children - it's that simple. And if that means you and others adopting have to jump through more hoops, ect. - sorry, that's the price you must pay. I am not unsympathetic to your plight, but, I have to put childrens' best interest before yours.

If harsher regulations slow down adoptions in Russia, that's the price we pay for protecting those children who are currently being adopted. Of course no one wants to think of children languishing in homes because the regulations are stricter. There have been way too many tragic events occuring the past few years in Russian adoption. Personally, I can't condone ignoring the flaws as they surface so that it makes it easier for adoptive parents to adopt from Russia. Or, even to allow more children to be adopted knowing that so many tragedies are occurring with the ones who are being adopted.

Do you have the number of children dying in orphanages each day? Dying of starvation, abuse, neglect? Also the rate of death shortly after turning of age and getting out of the orphanage.

The new HOOPS are making it almost impossible to adopt. I think the children will be the ones to suffer in the end.

[angelkisses0102]

Originally Posted by Southernroots

I am not unsympathetic to your plight, but, I have to put childrens' best interest before yours.

If harsher regulations slow down adoptions in Russia, that's the price we pay for protecting those children who are currently being adopted. Of course no one wants to think of children languishing in homes because the regulations are stricter. There have been way too many tragic events occuring the past few years in Russian adoption.

If this is true then you would want these Russian orphans in loving homes...not Russian orphanages. Did you know there are over 700,000 Russian orphans...did you know Russian spends less than a penny a day on each orphan. Did you know almost half of the kids who age out commit suicide? Did you know the vast majority of the rest turn to crime and prostitution to survive.

Have you ever spent a day in a Russian hospital, with little kids running up to you, asking if you would adopt them? Have you ever seen an 11 month old infant so malnourished that she weighed less than most newborns...wore 3/6 month clothes at 1 year? Have you have had to fight a judge in a Russian courtroom that you in fact want to adopt this baby regardless of the fact that she is sick? When the judge would actually say 'pick a healthier one and let this one die here?'

Have you ever spent a day with an attachment disordered child...infant actually...who is so full of rage and anger that he wants to hurt you? And does?

13 children have died at the hands of their adoptive parents since Russia opened their doors in 1991. Most of these children were so deeply disordered...RAD...and you know who did that to them...the wonderful Russian orphanages that you feel are OK to spend some extra time in. Spend a few hours with a RAD child, you'll understand more than you ever, EVER want to know about the horrors of the system in Russia.

How many times have you actually been in a Russian orphanage?


****edited to add****
How many Russian orphans have you adopted? I have 2 and would love to adopt again...but...

I have a very difficult time typing this...based on the rest of my post....but we will NOT go back to Russia for adoption #3....why, when I know the absolute living hell these kids endure? Because of all these new HOOPS we would have to jump through....for the fact that these kids are now required to spend MORE time in the orphanages before they are available to be adopted...more damage done to them. That I would have to leave my baby RAD'ish for too long on 2 trips or possibly even 3 trips to Russia...that the emotional toll from the process would be bad, oh so bad for my 2 kids who are already home. So who is benefiting from these new HOOPS? Not the Russian orphans....

[aimeemk]

OH look! Someone (KAREN) is familar with Russian adoption and has stated some FACTS!!!



Yeah Karen!!!

[kretzklan]

The percentage of children killed or abused by adoptive parents from Russia is .2% (that is only counting those cases we know about and the children adopted in 2004...so the actual percentage could be +/- 2%) I know that is MUCH lower than the percentage of abused children in foster care or even with their biological families. No, it is NOT ok for it to even be one child. But, I don't see anyone saying "hey, let's put a licensing practice into place to have a baby in the US" - BUT many children are hurt and killed by their own birth parents everyday. Now, people will say that is not the point of this thread. BUt, it seems the point has been to say that adopting from Russia should be harder because children have been injured and abused. What is bothering those of us who have adopted from Russia is that no one in this scenario is worrying about the children left behind.

Out of 5,300 adoptions granted in 2004 - there have been no stories of abuse or neglect. The children in the stories were adopted earlier when rules were less strict. But, to say that rules need to continue to tighten when it is close to impossible to get the children out now...it's silly. We need to follow the rules of adoption now and never go back to what allowed these families to adopt before...but we do not need to make it harder on families now. I do not need to pay for the sins of those that came before me and neither should the children.

If anyone cares to know - the number of children adopted from Russia went down over a 1000 for 2005. That is 1,000 children sitting in orphanages in Russia with no family. And if you think there isn't abuse in those orphanages...you live in a dream world. My children suffered terrible abuse both in their birth homes and in the orphanages. And their stories are nothing compared to others. The people in the homes do what they can...but what can they do with 450 kids and no money...little food, little clothing.

Someone mentioned the aging out issue. I saw a study - 85% of Russian orphans who age out of the orphanage system (age 16 to 18) are dead within 5 years. Murder, drug overdose, suicide...There is a documentary called the Children of Leningrad. If you have a chance to watch it...well, it tells the story. And that is about the children who can't even get into the orphanages due to overcrowding...The city my children are from is home to 600,000 people and 10,000 orphans...

[CeltiaSkye]

Originally Posted by Southernroots

We will have to agree to disagree, because I cannot buy your premise on gun control or adoption. Just because people circumvent laws in regards to both, doesn't mean that we should throw up hands up and say. "Oh well, bad things will just happen sometimes."

We have to put forth our best efforts to protect children - it's that simple. And if that means you and others adopting have to jump through more hoops, ect. - sorry, that's the price you must pay. I am not unsympathetic to your plight, but, I have to put childrens' best interest before yours.

Southernroots, you're missing the point. None of us are saying that we should reduce the number of hoops that we have to jump through. We're simply trying to point out that the situation when Masha was adopted was MUCH different than it is today. Nancy Grace is trying to claim that Russian adoption is still an unregulated anything goes enterprise and that is simply not the case. The steps that needed to be taken have already been taken.

[Kippa Herring]

Originally Posted by kimber413

I think there are a couple of things everyone unfamiliar with Russian adoption need to keep in mind:

Masha's adoption was completed over 5 years ago. Masha's adoption was completed ILLEGALLY, meaning the agency did not complete all the proper paperwork, accepted money under the table (single men are not allowed to adopt from Russia), paid bribes to officials that handled the adoption, did a poor excuse for a home study, etc. The Russian officials have been punished by Russian authorities, the agency in question is no longer allowed to process Russian adoptions, and many, many more hoops were added for those of us adopting from Russia to jump through in order to complete an adoption.

Was what happened to Masha terrible? Of course. Does it happen all the time? OF COURSE NOT. But threads like this started by folks unfamiliar with the CURRENT process of adoption from Russia (and by many comments here, it is painfully clear that many are NOT familiar with the current processes, nor do they wish to be) only serve to hinder those of us who have or are in the process of adopting from Russia. They hurt the prospects of the tens of thousands of children there waiting for homes with loving parents. They serve no useful purpose other that to stir the emotions of OTHER people who have no clue what the current process of adoption from Russia is.

Your opinion.
I just don't happen to share it.

Originally Posted by kimber413

Unfortunately, just like in gun control laws, additional adoption laws will only be applicable to those folks who wish to adopt LEGALLY. Illegal adoptions are the problem, and they can always be processed under the table somewhere, no matter what laws are added, just like anyone that really wants to own a gun can get one, whether they are illegal or not.

That's a little cynical.
And self-righteous, if I may say so.
Illegal adoptions will always exist, so "shrug".

Originally Posted by kimber413

Would standardized home study rules help on this end? I'm not sure. The rules are pretty standard for Russian adoption.

How come those Florida loopholes then?

Originally Posted by kimber413

As someone else said, there are police checks, FBI checks, psych evaluations, medical exams, biographies, letters of recommendation, photographs of home and family... literally hundreds of pieces of paper signed, notarized, and apostilled to complete a LEGAL Russian adoption. I dare say if most bio parents had to go through what we went through before they could physically have a child, we wouldn't have as many problems with overpopulation.

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting here. If your sub-text is what I think it might be, then I find that very disturbing.

Originally Posted by kimber413

But biological parents don't have to do that paperwork,

Edited

Originally Posted by kimber413

And I don't think any amount of additional legislation, additional paperwork, additional "hoops" will do anything to prevent illegal adoption from happening.It'll just leave a bunch of kids who could have had a good home with a loving family sitting in an orphanage in Siberia waiting to time out so they can join their friends in prostitution and drug abuse.

Some time last year I read a very good article by an adoptive parent about adoption from Russia. It was published (I think) in the Washington Post. I'll see if I can dig it out. While the author's attitude is different from yours, I think you might find a lot in the article with which you would agree.

[BrandyHagz]

I am going to ask that everyone please take a minute to check out the Forum Rules and Terms of Service.

Respect is a requirement here on the forums – we ask that all members, regardless of their opinions or feelings on adoption, be respectful and kind to others. You can get your point across and state your opinion without being rude, and we ask that you make the extra effort to do that please.

Thank you.

[aimeemk]

Kippa-herring,

I am a little confused. What are your intentions here? What do you propose change? In your expert opinion, what do you suggest change in the Russian adoption process to guarantee no more terrible things happen by American adoptive parents.

[kimber413]

Originally Posted by Southernroots

That comment is one that I am afraid to even touch. But, I think it is highly uncalled for in this discussion and very reflective of your disdain for bio parents.

Since you don't know me personally, and have no idea if I am a bio parent as well as an adoptive parent, well, I just have to laugh at this one. I must hate my parents. Freud would have a field day with that one. Or was it Jung?

Originally Posted by Southernroots

P.S. The fact that Masha's adoption was handled illegally only means to me that we have to take measures to insure that it will be harder for it to happen again.

Again, hollow words. You clearly don't understand the current process, and evidently aren't aware of illegal activities that happen regardless of the amount of legislation that's enacted (know anyone that smokes pot?) Just what additional "hoops" would you add? Name them, I'm sure we do them... Those of us that opt to go through the system legally, that is. I'd be interested in hearing them, and if they aren't already in place and they make sense, then I'd be all for them.

[NancyAshe]

This thread has been closed for posting. Differences of opinion often become heated, but must remain respectful.