[HopefulMommy]

Hi All,

DH and I are researching plan B for our first adoption.

We are currently logged in at the CCAA in China and do not expect a referral until 2009!

Anyway, I have read about some really great experiences with Kazakhstan, and we are thinking about pursuing an adoption from Kazakhstan, but I am confused.

I thought I read that it is against Kazak Law for waiting children's photos to be posted. And that they (Kazaks) do not pre-refer children. You are expected to be matched while in country. I am I miss reading this?

I have had two agencies who have actually sent me photos of children and I have only sent emails requesting info...

Any help would be appreciated
Thanks,
Rebecca

[auntuptonow]

Hi, Rebecca. There are a number of adoptive parents on this website who are more informed than I am, but since a few days had passed since your post I wanted to pass along what I have been told (here and on other sites) regarding referrals and photolisting.

t is my understanding that referrals are illegal, and that parents are expected to travel blind-- only meeting/selecting their child once they are in-country. That having been said, some agencies do "refer" specific children and go so far as to list photos. But from what I understand, there are no guarantees that you will be able to adopt the child you were referred or were given a picture of, so be wary of any such promises.

I hope this helps
Jeannine

[hml1976]

I think I can say this here. I would not sign with any agency that photolists Kazakh children, especially infants. If I was considering said agency I would be sure to google the name of the agency and the agency director to gain a better understanding of its reputation. Vague enough? I hope so

[maverick3926]

Hi Rebecca,

My DH and I are currently in the process of adopting from Kaz. I agree with hml1976, I would be hesitant about signing with an agency that shows you pics. The travel for Kaz is blind, and yes you are matched in country. We have heard from many people that the matching is great once you are there, because you get to match with the personality, also, you have a say. We are with an excellent agency if you are looking for one. Just PM me and I will send you all the info!

[nyetdetskydom]

We adopted with an agency that has photos of children, they may not show them on their website, but they have them. All agencies have working relationships with various detsky-doms, while they won't guarantee 100% they will more than likely do their best to fit you with the child you had seen in the photo, but once in country they will remind you to lie in court and state that you saw them and picked them out while visiting the detsky-dom. You'll see while you're in country, they're are many "stretched truths." It's almost comical. So you play the game. You just have to remember you are a visitor to a country with a very different culture and mindset then most Americans. All I can say is that I learned to roll with things. You can check out my "honest" blog at Becoming the 4 McCaffery's

Cheers
Nell

[hml1976]

Agree with Neil. Most of the big agencies (I think we used the same agency for our first adoption) do get "referrals," we had a referral. But the OP is referring to an agency practice of posting pictures of infants online for all to see and then requiring a nice hefty "holding fee" to reserve the infant and then it seems without fail, the child is no longer available but your paperwork is already in Kaz by then and you've signed the agency contract. Totally different than the referral system that the big agencies use.

[kazmama25]

Ditto. We also adopted a "referred" child. Public photolisting is quite different. Please be careful of any agency that "promises" you a referred child. Our agency was good about making us understand that, while they'd do everything they could to ensure that we arrived in Kazakhstan by the time Emi came off of the 6 month registry, there was always a chance that a local family could adopt her or that we wouldn't arrive on time and that she'd be available to other foreign adoptive parents. There were never any guarantees. It is a true leap of faith either way- referral or not.

With our second daughter from Japan, we were never given a choice on either sex or gender. We saw photos shortly before travel and met her in country. So, we've done both "referral" and "blind" adoptions. Both brought wonderful, amazing children into our family and we couldn't be happier or more in love with our girls.

Best of luck to you!!

[lovemybulldog]

He Rebecca,

Popping over from China boards.

When we were researching countries and Russia was out for us, we also looked into Kaz. Our agency has a Kaz program, but when asked they stated that they only handle blind referrals so as not to skirt legal issues, ask prospective parents to lie in court, and because the child isn't always there when they travel.

They said that most often, you "choose" from a group of children once there, and can you imagine how it would feel if you had a picture in your head and got in the matching room only to see that the child you have in your head and heart at that point isn't there and you can't say anything because you weren't supposed to see the picture in the first place? I would be devestated. Of course, I haven't BTDT from Kaz, but that's just what I've read and was told by our agency.

We also wouldn't be able to travel for such a long trip. It's such a very long in country stay. We couldn't justify eating up half of our stay home time with our child just for travel. Even 2 trips seems ridiculous to me (one of our reasons for not going Russia).

I know everyone's experiences are different. I do know that Kaz has pretty good health stats on kids and they are just gorgeous.

Good luck in your decisions and your wait in the China program. I hope and pray every day that things speed up.

[HopefulHeart2]

Hi There! I was looking through the forum and noticed that you are pursuing your Kazakhstan adoption while still pursuing China adoption as well? My husband and I are LID in China as of 4/2007. Thus- we are in a very very long anticipated wait as well and would love to initiate another adoption in the meantime. We just didn't know if CCAA or our agency, CCAI, would allow this. Any advice/feedback that you could provide me with- I'd so appreciate! THANKS! -Lisa

[mrbkr]

Neil is spot on. It is the same way in Russia as well. There are many photos of orphans in Asia and Eastern Europe including Kazakhstan that are available and they are quite easy to find. There are also many parents that adopt the exact child they picked out from a photolisting. It can be done and is being done everyday. That said, of course the younger the child, the bigger the risk that it will not be available when the PA is ready to travel. That also happens more often than it should but against the law or not, many agencies take the chance of publishing photos of waiting children. I guess they figure why not use all the resources available to help the children find their forever homes. Not all agencies that publish photos of waiting children are bad. For most of them, their heart is in the right place. I would not discard a good agency solely on the premis that they published photos of waiting children. I think we would all agree that prudent and thorough research is the key to chosing the right agency. The best agency in the world may not be the appropriate agency in every circumstance. The agency I use for Kazakhstan may not be the agency I would use for China or vice versa.

There are some agencies that are a lot more intrenched in certain parts of the country than others. By that I mean there is a closer relationship between foreign coordinators and their associated agencies here in the U.S. They are also more intrenched in the system itself. They know the system and have been working in and around it for years. They have more influence with adoption authorities and administrators such as judges, lawyers, orphanage directors, local social workers, doctors, teachers, etc . Some foreign coordinators can even exercise their influence with specific consulates here in the U.S. I know this for a fact and through experience.

In any event, by doing your research, cooresponding with all the experienced folks on this site, and getting everyones opinion and take on things, you are off to a good start. Get the answers to all the questions you possibly can and use this site for other questions you haven't thought of. We did and it sure helped us. The final judgement is yours of course but it's nice to have a group of experienced folks you can reference from.

[Electridel]

I agree with Kazmama25. Referrals and photo listing are two very separate things. The big agencies use referrals and IMO, that's perfectly ok. We all know there is risk there, but it also gives PAP's a chance to plan, research medicals, etc. It's all about risk. Our agency said only 5-10% of families lose referrals. Photo listings on the other hand are much more risky. There are soooo many other stories out there where parents have signed on with an agency due to a photo listing only to find out that once they paid the fee, the child was no longer available. I agree with the other advice- run from photo lisitings. Traveling blind is also not w/out risk. You don't know who you're traveling for, if there are children in your age range or gender, and what the health of the children are. It's really about risk. Which one is more preferable for your situation? Neither referral nor traveling blind are wrong (though yes, technically referrals are illegal in Kaz, but obviously not inforced if the BIG ONES are using them), it's simply about which risk is right (best) for each family. Good luck with the research and the choice.

Jennifer
Mama to Gianna (Petro, b. 11-26-07, a. 7-2-07)
Convergent Paths - Home Page

[JenniferKaz]

We travelled blind to Astana in the spring of 2006. Shortly (as in weeks) before that our agency stopped giving out referrals becuase the country has really cracking down on referrals, expecially referrals held for more than a couple weeks.

When we arrived, 'blind', we went to the orphanage and saw 3 children: 1 too old for our home study, 1 severely delayed and 1 which our co-ordinator told us we would pick before they showed us any kids.

As it turned out, we travelled blind, but our agency did not. So that satisfied everyone's legal issues and anxiety as we never had to lie in court.

I have heard of quite a few people travelling blind and seeing/meeting a dozen children and then picking. That would seem difficult. Depends on the region and agency how they do it.