[nicks]

Hello! We are in waiting mode for our son to be born in 2 months. We adopted our precious daughter almost 2 years ago. We took her to the mikvah when she was 6 months old and had her baby naming ceremony afterwards. My question is....since we are having a boy this time does he need to go to the mikvah first and be converted before having a bris?

[Shai's Mom]

I would suggest that you check with your local orthodox rabbi on the matter. I don't believe that your son will have to go to the mikva before his brit mila, but please check with a rabbi.

All the best, and good luck!!

[myrniesam]

Our second son had a brit then went through an orthodox conversion later on. Our rabbi/mohel took care of both things for us. Our first son was internationally adopted so he had a different course. We had him circumcised at an older age and had him converted at the same time as our infant son.

[DebbieJFSG]

If you're adopting a newborn, it is generally the practice to have the bris first (day 8 is preferable but not mandatory, since the baby won't be Jewish yet) and then the mikveh later. We did this with both our sons, although our second child, who was born prematurely and spent his first ten days in the NICU, couldn't have a bris until he was three weeks old.

[sak9645]

You have the brit milah first. You then wait until the circumcision site is healed and take your son to the mikvah.

Sharon

[Saya]

Just curious - even if the baby is in your arms as a newborn, wouldn't you have to wait until TPR is irrevocable before doing any of this?

[DebbieJFSG]

To answer Jillian's question....it depends!

If the birthparents agree not to have the baby circumcised in the hospital because they understand that you will have the circumcision done as part of a religious ritual, and if your agency has no problem with it, you can go ahead and have a bris when you want.

If the baby is circumcised in the hospital and you are having a ritual circumcision at the bris (what's the term? Ha'kefet dam? something like that...) where the mohel draws a drop of blood symbolically, then it doesn't much matter at all.

If the birthparents do not want the baby circumcised then you do need to wait until TPR is complete and your agency may want you to wait until the revocation period has ended because if the birthparents change their minds and decide to parent the circumcision can't be undone!

I would say it's safer to wait until after the at-risk period has ended.

Our first child was born in Florida, so TPR was signed and irrevocable 24 hours after he was born. We had the bris in Florida on day 8 at my grandmother's apartment. Our second child was born in Arkansas. There was no mohel in the state at that time! We waited until we were home and had his bris when he was three weeks old. (Also he was premature and in the NICU so there were medical reasons to wait.) In both cases the birthparents wanted the boys circumcised but understood that we would be waiting until it could be done at a bris rather than by the doctor in the hospital.

[Saya]

Thanks Debbie! Our first child was a girl (and home at 8 months old) so we haven't had to deal with any of this. But who knows what's going to be up with number 2!

A question just popped into my head for all of you to wrap your Jewish brains around - if for some reason you were to take a child to the mikvah and do the conversion before TPR was irrevocable, and then the birthmother changed her mind and decided to parent, would the conversion be valid? Would the child still be Jewish?

[sak9645]

Personally, I wouldn't think of doing a conversion before the child is legally mine.

Judaism has always been very cautious about the whole topic of converting people, because, throughout history, there were groups of people who tried to force the Jews to convert to other faiths. We know what it feels like, and that it is wrong. We are not like some religious groups, which believe that it is important to proselytise, to save people from going to Hell.

That is why, for example, many rabbis make it tough for people to convert to Judaism. They want to be sure that the people converting are absolutely determined to be Jewish, and are not being pressured -- for example, "You can't marry my daughter unless you convert." Conversion classes focus on the difficulties of being Jewish -- prejudice, all those dietary laws, etc.

Obviously, modern-day Judaism has had to deal with situations like adoption. Somewhat reluctantly, Judaism had to recognize the fact that you can't wait until your child reaches the age of either religious or civil consent before making him/her Jewish. As an example, what happens if you wait, and all the other boys are studying for their Bar Mitzvahs, but your son can't because he isn't Jewish?

Today, most rabbis are comfortable with converting an adopted child who is not old enough to give consent -- though I've actually heard of some ultra-Orthodox rabbis who are not. However, a tradition has grown up of having the child reaffirm his/her conversion at the time of Bar/Bat Mitzvah, to show that he/she is happy to have been given the chance to be Jewish.

Because of this sensitivity, I think it would be religiously and ethically wrong to convert a child who might not actually become part of the prospective adoptive parents' family. In this case, you'd be requiring conversion of a non-Jewish child, with no justification, something that simply would not be acceptable to any rabbi or Jewish scholar.

If you went ahead and converted a child, and he/she subsequently was returned to the birth family, I think that you would need to advise the birth family of the conversion, and let that family decide what to do about it. I suspect that, in most cases, the birth family -- even if not terribly religious -- would choose to baptize or christen the child, or do something that would return the child to his/her previous religious identity.

If the birth family did not do so, yes, the child might remain "technically" Jewish. It is possible that he/she might be considered Jewish in a few very specific legal situations. As an example, if he/she became an adult and decided to move to Israel, perhaps he/she could qualify for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.

However, it is pretty much impossible to raise a Jewish child in a non-Jewish home. From a practical point of view, that child would not be Jewish, having had absolutely no serious exposure to the Jewish religion and culture. He/she would have to study as much as any convert if, at a later date, he/she decided to identify as Jewish.

Again, the bottom line, in my estimation, is that making a non-Jewish child Jewish should be done only under the specific circumstance of a finalized adoption.

Sharon

[DebbieJFSG]

Technically...(very technically)...the conversion isn't "complete" until a child reaches the age of maturity and "accepts" the conversion. Jewish law states that you can't convert someone against his/her will. So the bris (or not, if it's a girl) and the mikveh are the first steps that Jewish parents take so that their children are fully accepted as members of the Jewish community. When a child reaches the age of 13 and has a Bar or Bat Mitzvah, that is seen as the "acceptance" of the conversion.

Now don't all jump down my throat...I know that there are different interpretations based on whether we're talking about Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, etc.... And I'm not making a judgement here about what everyone else should or shouldn't do. I'm only sharing what we learned when we started this process eleven years ago.

The rabbi at our (reform) temple said he didn't feel we needed to take our son to the mikveh. As far as he was concerned if we were Jewish our son would be Jewish. Personally, we weren't okay with that. Based on the way my husband and I were raised, we wanted the mikveh (and three rabbis so we would have a beit din). But we did not use Orthodox rabbis, so, in fact, some people would say that our son's conversion "didn't count." (Of course, we disagree!)

In terms of "accepting" their conversion at age 13...see my post about B'nei Mitzvah planning (which we just started). I don't want to duplicate info here.

And so my LONG answer is...no...I don't think a Jewish court of law would consider the child Jewish if s/he were returned to his/her birthparents.