[KarynB]

Saya,

Great thread and thanks for sharing. I agree with you 100% that birthmothers in IO are not treated the same way as birthmothers in North America. In fact, I wrote a twenty page paper on that subject for a class recently - titled "The Politics of IO". I am thinking of expanding it for a thesis for a Postdoc. Anyways....

Great thread and I'll comment more later (I should be studying right now!!!)

[Isabo]

Originally Posted by KellyKA

Hey everyone sorry but im going to rock the boat at little bit but I am all for closed adoptions especially for infants. I think for older children who know and remember their parents other options should be considered for keeping contact but for young children and babies I think things should be closed and Im saying this not as a selfish parent but as an adopted child myself.

I will admit I am very curiouse about my birthmother and family but I would have been VERY confused growing up to have 2 moms I knew about and possibly other half brothers and sisters, and it would have "normalfied" if thats even a word, a broken family. I grew up in a great home with two brothers who were my parents biokids and while I feel a little differnt I would have felt like an OUTCAST had there been other parents to "know about" besides my own and I think putting a concrete face, to the abstract idea of my adoption would have isolated me and caused alot of upset and pain. My parents never hid my adoption and were always very open about me being adopted but they were MY PARENTS and my brothers were MY BROTHERS and to have other people hanging in the wing popping in an out, being "family" but with no resposibilty would have greatly lessened my view,value and feelings of what a family ment.

Im sorry if Im not saying the popular thing its just my point of view and im also looking at it as the example of how I want to raise my own children. While giving a child up for adoption is a truely selfless thing I think this new idea of Open adoptions is a little bit of "Having your cake, and eating it to" at the expense of the child.

Kelly,

I am glad that you had a good adoption experience. Not all adoptees have that good experience. My son did not and was very damaged by feeling rejected, abandoned and unconnected due to his adoption. He would have benefited greatly by knowing his first family. He sought us out while still a teenager. For him, finding us as a teenager was too late to undue the damage caused by not knowing us.

I am blown away by your characterization of open adoption as "having your cake and eating it too" for first families. I relinquished into the closed adoption system as a scared, shamed, uninformed and yes, coerced, teenager. I have no idea what "cake" you would be referring to. As a mother who lost her only child, adoption has not had ANY rewards for me at all. Open adoption is about lessening the losses involved in adoption, not putting extra icing on the cake. The closed adoption system was a punitive, horrible system that inflicted tremendous losses on families. The director of my agency told me a few years ago that "what they did to young girls was inhumane." I would not wish a closed adoption on my worst enemy. It is a soul destroying experience for a mother.

As far as "responsibility", first families have responsibilities to their child. It is their responsibility to be good, loving people who their child can look up to, and who are dependable and there for their child when needed. I know that not all first families are able to live up to this, but the nature of adoption is that most people are in crisis or in very difficult circumstances or they wouldn't be forced to "choose" adoption in the first place.

[Isabo]

Originally Posted by Saya

Blah blah blah. This is a long-winded way of expressing my frustration that international adoption is like 20 YEARS behind domestic adoption in so many ways. I feel like the social workers in the international program hide behind sterotypes - "oh, it wouldn't be culturally appropriate to stay in contact." Um, says who? In domestic adoption, where the potential birthparents are standing right there in the room, my agency treats them like human beings. But for international, the birthmoms are just hypothetical. The agency doesn't think about whether they're getting counseling or financial support, they don't think of these women as individuals with their own goals for what an adoption should look like. The result is these women are completely silenced.

Saya,

Thank you for bringing this topic up and for feeling such compassion towards your child's first mother. I often read the international forums here, especially the Guat forum. I have seen a very mixed goup of adoptive parents there. Some seem like wonderful and compassionate people, while others seem to have a very different take on international adoption - precisely the one that you are describing.

One of the most disturbing threads I have ever read on this site took place in the Guat forum. You can read it at Who else is secretly wishing biomom would get pregnant again? . Basically, many of the thread participants, including the OP, were secretely hoping/praying that their child's first mother would go through the horror of losing another child to adoption so that they could adopt a full sibling. I am saddened beyond words that anyone would wish the losses involved in adoption to be experienced a SECOND time on a woman in crisis or that anyone would wish that a child be conceived SO THAT that child could lose their mother. Losing one child is horrifying enough. I am STILL haunted by this thread. It is an eye opening experience to read it.

[JPDakota]

Kelly,
How you and I view things is not very politically correct on these forums. You'll always get responses that basically say you cannot feel the way you do. That's just how it is.
I, too, had a great adoption experience in the 'closed' era. I agree with your assertion that open adoption, while presented as best for the child, is really more like best of the birth parents. In fact, I can say with complete honesty that it would not have been good for me. We adopted a newborn domestically in a closed adoption because we believe this is what's best for the child. DD's birth mother agreed with us.
I guess I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in your beliefs.

[Kabre]

Our AD is from Korea. In many ways adoption there is viewed like it was her in the US 50 years ago (hush, hush, women faking pregnancies then adopting, etc) although things are slowly improving. When we first began our adoption journey I thought there was no way I could handle an open adoption. After we heard our daughter's story though I felt so much for her birthmother and the pain she must have gone through. I wonder if she got any counseling or if her family brushed it under the rug. I have sent letters and pictures to our agency in Korea should she ever come looking and I said if she'd like contact we'd be willing to work with her. I do feel differently about open adoption now though.

[JPDakota]

Just so I'm clear......I did not say I could not "handle" an open adoption. It is not about that. It is about what is best for my child.
And, now I seem to be hijacking the thread because we didn't adopt internationally, so I'll quit. "We now rejoin our regularly scheduled program, already in progress."

[kristibk]

I just have a comment. I have spoken with a couple of families that have adopted domestically and they understood the importance of having as much information about their children's bio parents as possible. Their children have wondered who they looked like, where they got their curly hair from, did their bio mother or father love to play the guitar like they do. Our adoptive children with come with a genetic make up that we may or may not know anything about. I doubt I will get much information from our agency about our daughters family. I have our photo of our daughter with her bio mother from the DNA. We know she has two younger brothers. I want to have something because I'm sure someday down the road our daughter will have questions. No matter how good we are to her, no matter how much we love her, we assume she will have an interest about where she came from. I have a cousin that my aunt and uncle adopted when they lived in Alaska. He never had much interest in knowing about his bio mother and father. I have an aunt that was adopted and when she was a teenager she wanted to meet her bio mom. My grandparents new this woman and took my aunt to meet her. She also met 2 half sisters. She was glad to have had that opportunity but she never formed a relationship with them. It was beneficial since my aunt became diabetic and found out in ran in her bio mom's family. We have no idea what our future will hold with our daughter. Like most parents, we just want to try to prepare the best we can.
K

[hml1976]

For the record Isabo, I know of many many international adoptive parents who have spent thousands of dollars and even broken the laws of their children's birthcountry to attempt to find their children birthparents. I think your generalizations are harsh and cruel to those of us who decided to adopt overseas.

[Isabo]

Originally Posted by hml1976

For the record Isabo, I know of many many international adoptive parents who have spent thousands of dollars and even broken the laws of their children's birthcountry to attempt to find their children birthparents. I think your generalizations are harsh and cruel to those of us who decided to adopt overseas.

Please reread my post. I stated that "I often read the international forums here, especially the Guat forum. I have seen a very mixed goup of adoptive parents there. Some seem like wonderful and compassionate people, while others seem to have a very different take on international adoption - precisely the one that you are describing."

I WAS refering to those adoptive parents you describe when I talked about the "wonderful and compassionate people." I said that there are also others such as some of those in the thread I posted about (http://forums.adoption.com/guatemala...nt-again.html). What you claim are "my generalizations" were not my words; they were the words of adoptive parents who have adopted children in Guatamala and hoped that the natural mother would get pregnant again and relinquish AGAIN so that they could have a related sibling. Read the thread I posted about. I did not make it up, and I made NO generalizations in the post you are complaining about. I talked about a thread which BROKE MY HEART TO READ and HAUNTS ME TO THIS DAY. There were some of those "wonderful and compassionate people" in there as well, fighting the good fight and expressing their outrage against the harsh and cruel hopes and prayers of the would be two time adoptive parents who wanted a mother to suffer another loss so they could have a sibling.

Why don't you read the thread and then express your outrage against the posters in that thread who actually make international adoptive parents look very very bad?

[Saya]

Isabo - as a mama with a daughter from Guatemala and a frequenter of that board, I do remember that thread, though I don't think I posted. I think it was pretty eye-opening for me about just these kinds of issues. I'm so sorry it hurt you so much. A.com can be a difficult board sometimes, with so many different points of view. I love the Guat board - the people there have been amazingly supportive of me through some really hard times. But I think threads like that are indicative of this larger problem that in IA potential adoptive parents aren't asked (usually) to think about what a expectant mother considering adoption is going through.

But I guess my question for Isabo et al regarding this thread - and this is one I have struggled with - is what is the difference between that thread and me simply saying "I want to adopt a second child." My husband and I are starting the process to adopt number 2, domestically. We (OK me really) are much more politicized about this this time around, and it is important that I know any woman who decides to choose me as the mother of their baby gets all the support, counseling and resources she needs, and that she is not coerced in any way. But aren't I at some level saying that I hope that some woman decided to relinquish her child to me? I don't want any woman to feel coerced or pressured into making such a life-altering decision. But I do fundamentally believe in adoption - I don't believe, like some people, that adoption is fundamentally wrong, or on some basic level worse then a child being raised by his/her biological parents IF it is done ethically.

I don't think I'm making myself clear, so I'll just post this and see what happens. Isabo, as always thanks for your insightful input. And KarynB I'd LOVE to hear more about your paper!

(And yes, we are in the midst of gathering documents and information and hundreds of dollars to try to find Anabel's first mama. For various reasons, it might be a difficult search, so wish us luck. . .)

[KarynB]

Hi Saya,

I don't want to speak for Isabo here, but for me the difference is that in the first thread the responders were "hoping" their birthmothers would have a second pregnancy and have to relinquish. This does seem pretty cruel and highly insensitive - is there anything worse than losing a child, no matter how it happens? I think when we adopt internationally we are really shielded from the bmom's perspective - we didn't talk about this AT ALL with agency or SW. Very sad, and a real disservice to our kids.

Anyways, when you are taking on adoption #2 you are not really wishing that loss on anyone - but acknowledging that is does happen and you are willing to parent a baby if the birthmom/dad is unable for any reason. Subtle distinction, but very important. JMO, of course!

I don't think Isabo was in any way hurtful, etc to a parents - I think she is right in that many (especially in IO) don't stop to think of the tremendous and life altering loss this is for birthmom. Of course, many of us know nothing about our kids' birthparents due to abandonment etc - so maybe that is our excuse. But that doesn't change the profound loss in her life - made even more devestating by the fact that she'll never know that her baby is healthy, happy and well-cared for (hopefully). This realization has made me so incredibly sad on so many occasions...

Saya - I'd be happy to send you my paper and although it is a bit lengthy I can highlight to areas about birthmom's etc - thanks for your interest!

[Oceans]

But aren't I at some level saying that I hope that some woman decided to relinquish her child to me? I don't want any woman to feel coerced or pressured into making such a life-altering decision. But I do fundamentally believe in adoption - I don't believe, like some people, that adoption is fundamentally wrong, or on some basic level worse then a child being raised by his/her biological parents IF it is done ethically.

Just my 2 cents but No, I don't believe this is what you are saying.

If you look at an individual woman and hope (or heaven forbid pray) that she has a baby that she can not parent so she places with you... then yes, you need to re-think your attitude about that IMO...

If a woman is considering adoption after becoming pregnant, of course you would hope and pray she chooses you, if she chooses adoption...

One scenerio hopes for an unplanned pregnancy, the other just hopes you are choosen to parent.

Karyn is right. The differences are subtle but in the end, they become huge...

[jeannecr]

Isabo, I just stumbled upon this thread, but I wanted to say that I remember very well the thread you describe from the Guat. forum. I was as appalled as you were at some of the statements posted there. I do think one of the problems with the old Guatemalan adoption system was the lack of awareness/education among PAPs. I believe education and discussion is the way to improve all aspects of adoption.

Jillian, I believe you are right that many Guatemalan birthmothers would love contact. We are planning to pursue that route as well.

[hml1976]

I agree its a disgusting thread. However, I'm sick of people who adopted domestically consistently putting down international adoptive parents. We are all adoptive parents, we all love our children and MOST of us do "stop and think" about our children's birthparents daily.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by hml1976

I agree its a disgusting thread. However, I'm sick of people who adopted domestically consistently putting down international adoptive parents. We are all adoptive parents, we all love our children and MOST of us do "stop and think" about our children's birthparents daily.

I agree - I don't think that's been happening in this thread, however. The majority of the people who have posted here have been parents through international adoption or a first mom.

I certainly wasn't trying to start a domestic vs. international thread, and hope that's not what we have here. My initial question was more about IA as an institution promoted by agencies then about individuals.

I went back and read that thread on the Guat board, and I'm feeling a little differently about it now. Not because it wasn't based upon an upsetting and disturbing premise, but because I feel like many of the posters started to think about things a little differently and many people revised their perspectives over the course of the thread.