[account4net]

Originally Posted by dpen6

Whyats the corralation between an adoptee searching and self pity?

Fact we were 2nd and 3rd choice.

So what is the point? Because you were 2nd choice, you were treated badly? If that is the case then it is not good. Just because you were adopted after a failed fertility does that mean that your aparents were less of a parents?

[account4net]

Originally Posted by dpen6

ARe you reaading any of my posts?

How do adoptees treat their aprents and parents?

I am really not understanding your concerns or questions. What is it in your opinion think she should do? Forget we had bparents..foerget we were adopted? Was it it you think we should do?

You have to answer the question as to what is expected of children. All parents would look for is a sense of belongingness to the family.

[dpen6]

Bur we "belong" to both.....that is thereality. We can decide how much and how important each is and I truly beleive that all the parents need to respect that. Because adoption is about the children..right?

[benandkatieh]

Originally Posted by Indiaadoptee

hey guys, here's a little something. read it, share your thoughts, whatever-i just want to see what you think!

just wanted to pop in to give you a huge (electronic) hug! that's it, just a hug for what you're going through.

also, a huge thank you for being willing to bear your most private thoughts/feelings to help those of us condiering adoption to see it from your perspective. i sooo appreciate this. i will have my husband read this thread also.

i hope your struggles and searching for answers finally brings you peace someday and i hope you have a solid and large support system around you to help you through it all to whatever you find at the end.

off to read the rest of this thread, and again, thank you so much. your perspective is so eye-opening - adoption is so complex and should be appreciated as such, and we as prosepctive parents need to be aware of all that this process can/will entail so we can prepare ourselves not only for our own wellbeing, but for our future childrens' wellbeing as well.

again &

[benandkatieh]

indiaadoptee or Dpen6 - couple questions

since the issue about '2nd choice' has come up, wondering what you would think about our situation...

long before i was married i wanted to adopt children- i can't really point to a specific time or event that caused that desire, but i remember in college asking my parents if they'd be okay with it if they had grandkids that weren't our race (kinda already feeling out what response i would get). my husband and i met while in high school on a trip to india & nepal through a christian mission organization. we spent 6 weeks there in about 6 cities- by far the most profound and life-changing experience in my life. india has EVER since been alive in our hearts. we have a bio son and intend to have more bio children (no fertility issues), but again, india and adoption are both profoundly still in my heart. i recently read an article on infanticide with indian girls & what an organization (Compassion International) is doing to help, which again sparked this enormous feeling of wanting to do something. again the adoption question popped up in my head.

i know adoption is very complicated emotionally and i don't want to be a pollyanna about it in the least, so that's why i so appreciate having found this site and you guys in particular who are willing to give some reality checks to those of us preparing for this process. my husband and i are very invested in the attachment parenting model of parenting with our bio son and are very interested in reading about how this translates to adoption. also, i am a psychotherapist by trade and deal with lots of trauma issues in my work, so (again don't want to be a pollyanna) i do feel i have the capability to be prepared for these huge challenges that will inherantly be part of any adoption. (all that just for a little background on who we are)

any advice specific to us in our situation? any concerns that are blaringly obvious to you and not me? and if you had been adopted under the above circumstances would you still feel that '2nd choice' feeling, even knowing from us the circumstnaces under which we decided to adopt? any other info is so appreciated too! i hope we can bring this thread back to an informative interaction

[Indiaadoptee]

Hi benandkatieh,

1.Big fan of Compassion International.
2.Hearing a prospective aparent saying they don’t want to be a Pollyanna about adoption is music to my ears.


*~-~>~...

Dpen6 can certainly pipe in. I still stand strong in my opinion that any adopted kid is 2nd choice-not 2nd choice as in 2nd best, but 2nd choice in that because the apparent couldn’t do or have one thing, the adopted baby was the next available option. Can’t have a girl of our own? Buy a baby girl. Can’t have a brown baby or a black baby of our own? Buy the brown baby.

To answer your question, I’d still view myself as 2nd choice. Not any lesser, just plan B.



*~-~>~...

Attachment parenting model is about truly listening to your child, and placing an emphasis on security and foundation in your relationship, right? That is so important, especially for children who experienced a trauma no one should have to go through-losing their mother. If anyone doesn’t think adopted children don’t go through trauma, message me, and I’ll be happy to give you links to articles. I have links about prenatal trauma and all that too.

“Adoptive parents are understandably alarmed when they hear about wounds and traumas. But adoptive parents need to be aware of this. Adopted babies, like all infants, can be tremendously resilient if given the chance, but they have experienced a profound loss that other babies are spared. Adoptive parents who love their children must have empthay for, not fear of, the sorrow that their children carry.” –Nancy Verrier, author of Journey of the Adopted Self.


I did see the part about breastfeeding…and even though the attachment parenting website wasn’t talking about adopted babies, I want to say that I am definitely not in favor of aparents breastfeeding their adopted babies. I quote from a friend: “since most babies are not placed for several weeks anyway, they are already used to a bottle nipple. Then, here comes a strange woman trying to shove her boob in the kids mouth...nipple confusion to the highest degree... We already have Mom confusion...why make it worse? Just feed the ****ed kid a bottle.”

I mean, come on, I can’t think of breastfeeding your adopted baby as being anything more than fulfilling the amom's fantasy and emotional needs-either breastfeeding the baby she never had, or trying to force bonding with the new baby. Just give the kid a bottle.



*~ - ~>~ ...

benandkatieh, you said you’re a psychotherapist, so I’m sure you already know these 2 things, but I’ll list them anyways for the benefit of everybody else. These are very important for any parents of adopted infants…

1. Don’t leave your crying baby alone, thinking they will just calm themselves. I know it is so often the practice to make your baby cry himself to sleep, especially here in the U.S., but your new baby has already been through such a tremendous amount of stress and anxiety. The last thing they want to do is forced to experience that all over again-be in such a stressful state that they fall asleep exhausted from crying.

2. I highly recommend anyone who adopts to not use the disrespectful terms “birthmother”, “birthfather” and “birthparents”, or “biological” child. These terms, which are fed to us by the adoption industry, are used to make human beings appear to be unrelated to their own family members. The terms “mother”, “father,”, “family member”, “natural mother”, “first mother” are accurate, respectful and nonderogatory terms.

If any prospective apparent is too selfish to NOT use the respectful terms, they’re better off adopting a dog than a child.



Feel free to ask me more questions. Anything you can think of, just shoot. I too want to bring this thread back to a more informative interaction.

[benandkatieh]

thanks so much for your reply!

interesting view on the 2nd choice, i wouldn't have thought of it that way... will have to think more about the "can't have a brown baby, buy one" idea... i'd like to believe i am considering adoption for altruistic purposes rather than as any type of "plan b" or attempting to gain something for myself that i cannot have by biological means. will think on this one - thanks for the food for thought!

i am going to try to find some published materials on attachment parenting of adopted children (wish Dr. Sears had one). i had never considered breastfeeding an adopted baby (at least one that was not a brand-newborn at the time of adoption), especially not an older baby - i'm sure that would be crazy confusing (and kinda wierd on mom's part...? someone can disagree with me here), plus the whole thing about how breastmilk comes in and is tailor-made to your child's needs beginning at birth... that wouldn't really happen and would have to be done artificially, and well past much of the health benefit. plus we know bonding happens with bottle feeding and other activities together too... or kids wouldn't become attached to their daddies! anyway.

rearding the crying-it-out method - that's also part of attachment parenting to not do... babies need comfort and use crying as a means of getting needs met, NOT as a means of manipulation. we do not use this method and would not consider it with any future children. it's heartbreaking.

thanks for the information on the terms, i hadn't heard them before... what is "first mother"? my guess is the biological mother?

i'm sure i will think of more questions... and thanks for being here helping us out!
eta: oh, i meant to ask you what you think of co-sleeping (either in same bed or just same room) until child wants to/needs to be in another room. in attachment-parenting, it's about communication with your child, having caregivers close if/when they need them. obviously i'd want to know the sleeping arrangements the child is used to and decide from there, but in general, any thoughts about that?

[Indiaadoptee]

Glad to be of help!

Happy to hear you've never considered breastfeeding an adopted baby. Yuck.

I'm glad you don't use the crying-out-method. That's just cruel to babies who already have had to use it a lot before they joined the adopted family.

The terms "first mother", "natural mother" apply to the biological mother, so you're right. Those terms make the mother more real, rather than a nameless figure in the child's life. No matter how far away the aparents take the child from their mother, no matter how much the aparent diminish her existence in the kid's life, she STILL IS that child's mother. Want to do the best for your akid? Treat their natural mother with respect.

In general, I'm fine with co-sleeping as long as it doesn't damper the parent's relationship. I know in the U.S., it's common practice for the baby to be in another room, connected by baby monitors. But I'm sure in other countries, especially poor countries, it's common to have the baby/child sleeping in the same room.

[ChelleBrewer]

Originally Posted by Indiaadoptee

1. Don’t leave your crying baby alone, thinking they will just calm themselves. I know it is so often the practice to make your baby cry himself to sleep, especially here in the U.S., but your new baby has already been through such a tremendous amount of stress and anxiety. The last thing they want to do is forced to experience that all over again-be in such a stressful state that they fall asleep exhausted from crying.

2. I highly recommend anyone who adopts to not use the disrespectful terms “birthmother”, “birthfather” and “birthparents”, or “biological” child. These terms, which are fed to us by the adoption industry, are used to make human beings appear to be unrelated to their own family members. The terms “mother”, “father,”, “family member”, “natural mother”, “first mother” are accurate, respectful and nonderogatory terms.

I absolutely agree with these sentiments. Others, not so much, but absolutely these. These are also really important for any child who has a chronic illness and has spent extended periods of time unable to be held or nurtured, except what is allowable by health professionals.

[Amandak249]

Love is so much more complicated and intricate that some people care to or are able to understand. I refuse to let plain old ignorance tell me who I am and what I mean to my family. Unless you've lived it, adoption is something that is purely inconceivable for people on the outside. I've come to realize that.

2nd choice yes. My parents tried to conceive again for years before I was born. My brother, their biological child, is 40 now. I am in my 20's. If they had been able to have another biological child, I wouldn't be in their family. That's a fact.

But 2nd choice does NOT equal "2nd BEST choice."

My parents have told me that they sometimes wonder what a biological daughter of theirs would have been like, just as I wonder sometimes what life with my birthparents would have been like (though sadly Ive known them for years and now have a pretty good idea..)

My parents and I both wonder what COULD have been, what MIGHT have been. I wonder about my birthparents, the relationship that will never be. And they wonder about a biological daughter that they might have had, about the girl who will never be. We are all allowed to fantasize, and wonder. Does that mean we would change things if we could? Nope. Looking back is not the same as wanting to go back.

We occasionally spoken about our "wonders". What would have happened if my biological parents had wanted to keep me? What might have happened if we had been able to conceive? The response is always the same. We look at eachother, and say:

"Whatever might have been- it couldn't be better than this!"

[Dickons]

I have just read the entire thread and all I can say is that it saddens me to see that times really have not changed.

Being adopted means you have two mothers and two fathers, period, you cannot change that fact no matter how much you love your child, how good you are as a parent, or by just being you. You cannot change it. Accept it, get over your expectations that doing everything right can make a fact of life not a fact of life.

Nothing in the above paragraph means we do not love our adopted family, nor that we do not consider our adopted family our family.

I have one family and it includes two mothers, two fathers, four grandmothers, four grandfathers, multiple siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins. My adoptive family only has a fraction of that circle, the same with my biological family...but they are all my family because I am the adoptee.

If you set out to do the best job you can because you want to be better than the childs biological family, then you have set yourself up for failure because you will be chasing that dream forever. Do it because you want to be the best parent you can, period, end of story, no strings attached.

The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier is an incredible book. I read it and found myself mirrored in many aspects, I saw my siblings mirrored there in other ways.

Adoptive parents who are not adoptees should never assume that they can take away the pain, or because they are such sterling parents their adopted children will never feel pain from being adopted. It is what it is and just let us have the pain without it being negated or about the parents feelings and all the efforts put into being the parents. It is part of who we are and telling us to get over it, get counseling to get over it, be grateful for what you have, does not work, will not work, cannot work. It is the core of who we are, we did not choose it, it is what it is.

Having said all that, I need to add that it does not stop us from having a good life, being loving and kind, accomplishing what we want...everything that is part of being human is part of us.

Just accept the fact that you cannot change the fact that we have another family, and that fact does not change how we feel about you.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[Indiaadoptee]

Dickons, you just summed it up. No matter how much we adult adoptees talk and talk and talk about adoption in an effort to educate, people hear only what they want to hear.

So often after talking to prospective aparents over countless emails, at the end I still hear things like "why take the chance of adopting a child in the US and having their birth parents come along and reclaim custody...we chose China because the birth mothers lose all rights to their child right away - forever. we want our child to view US as their only parents."

It always makes my head want to explode. I'm like, ARRRGG! You completely missed the point!

It's so emotionally exhausting and sometimes I wonder why I ever bother. But then I realize somewhere down the road what I say will make a difference with at least one aparent, and they will be a much better parent to their adopted kid.

I can't change the world's twisted view on adoption, but I can drastically influence how one adopted child will be raised. That makes it worth the effort.

[Dickons]

Originally Posted by Indiaadoptee

I can't change the world's twisted view on adoption, but I can drastically influence how one adopted child will be raised. That makes it worth the effort.

I agree!

Kind regards,
Dickons

[account4net]

Originally Posted by dpen6

Bur we "belong" to both.....that is thereality. We can decide how much and how important each is and I truly beleive that all the parents need to respect that. Because adoption is about the children..right?

Sorry for the late response. I agree to that.

[thinkinginva]

Originally Posted by Indiaadoptee

Dickons, you just summed it up. No matter how much we adult adoptees talk and talk and talk about adoption in an effort to educate, people hear only what they want to hear.

So often after talking to prospective aparents over countless emails, at the end I still hear things like "why take the chance of adopting a child in the US and having their birth parents come along and reclaim custody...we chose China because the birth mothers lose all rights to their child right away - forever. we want our child to view US as their only parents."

It always makes my head want to explode. I'm like, ARRRGG! You completely missed the point!

It's so emotionally exhausting and sometimes I wonder why I ever bother. But then I realize somewhere down the road what I say will make a difference with at least one aparent, and they will be a much better parent to their adopted kid.

I can't change the world's twisted view on adoption, but I can drastically influence how one adopted child will be raised. That makes it worth the effort.

IndiaAdoptee, I hope you still check this forum from time to time! I've found this whole discussion eye opening. I'm brand new to to adoption and this forum, so please bear with me if I sound naive or uninformed.

By way of background, my wife and I have infertility problems and are unsure about our next steps. Having unsuccessfully tried IVF I am racking my brain about whether adoption is an option for us. Many of the issues discussed here have opened my eyes about the joys and pitfalls involved in adoption, for both prospective adoptive parents and adoptees.

Despite my reservations, I want to explore this as an avenue and learn as much as I can about this subject.

My wife was born and raised in India, and I'm of Indian "origin" (of Indian parents, and born and raised in the US). I think if we do adopt our preference will be to adopt an Indian child, from India.

A couple of questions and thoughts. If anyone else would like to weigh in, please do -- I am all ears (and eyes).

1. IndiaAdoptee, you said something very interesting earlier in reference to adoptees knowing that they are their adoptive parents 2nd "choice" or 2nd "option" if they were infertile. You summarized this as "Can't have your own baby? Then buy a brown baby." Quite honestly I was kind of shocked by that statement. Is that how you genuinely feel about your adoption, and towards your adoptive parents? Do you think this is a common sentiment among adult adoptees?

2. And as a general comment/question: I'm interested in this idea of the "primal wound" that adopted children and adults feel. I haven't read the book. I'm wondering this: if the primal wound leads to the child/adult wanting to know who their natural/first parents are, do you think that infertile couples may also undergo a similar primal wounding in coping with infertility?

Let me explain, and apologies if this sounds a little far-fetched. I'm always amazed at how easily people (usually those without infertility problems) tell infertile couples that they should just adopt. That's somehow supposed to make the real pain of infertility magically disappear. Well, it doesn't. Having experienced infertility personally along with my wife, I'm beginning to grapple with the whole question of WHY the urge to have my own child is so strong.

I think there's a strong parallel between this urge, and the urge of the adopted child to find their natural/first parents. For the adopted child, like you had said in previous posts, there's a deep need to be able to reconnect with where and who you came from. This need is fundamental to understand and develop one's identity. I think I can understand how an adoptee wants to be able to look at themselves in the mirror and be able to connect to their first parent(s).

Similarly, couples trying to have children -- and those who are infertile -- have a deep need to connect to each other through childbirth and form a bond with a child who looks like them, has their characteristics and maybe their qualities. When that is taken away due to infertility, the primal need to procreate goes unfulfilled. It leaves a gaping hole in your life and it has nothing to do with your individual choice -- somehow the choice has been made for you that you cannot have children.

Now doesn't that sound similar to what the adopted child feels -- that a choice was made for them, sometimes before they were even born, that they would be separated from the parents they came from?

Sorry this is so long, but I really appreciate your thoughts and reactions.