[dpen6]

Your depriving your son of basic respect...you can still be innocent and adopted.

Your tone is very defensive..nobody can take the corner on anything.but it would not behoove to listen to others that have lived it. I suggest you read some of the forums that deal with adotees that have found out later in life.

This is not a contest on who knows better...just thinking of a childs well being...but as you say you know best....good luck

[MNelson]

celinenj02, have you seen any adult adoptees, on this thread or elsewhere, that always knew they were adopted, yet wished their parents had waited to tell them? It seems that you are getting a lot of good advice from the perspective of an adoptee, yet you assign other motives to their views (depriving of innocent years ... not being close to adoptive parents...etc).

My son will NEVER say why did you lie to me? He will never say why didn't you tell me sooner.

This insistence that you can tell the future is closing off your mind to people who have been standing in your son's shoes. There are some adult adoptees here on the forums who have had incredibly harsh beginnings such as your son did. Please don't dismiss their perspectives because you feel your son's situation is so vastly different.

[MNelson]

I would also suggest working through some of your own anger at your son's birthparents and fears about sharing the truth with your son that is so evident in your posts. Your son will pick up on it, even if you choose your words carefully.

[crick]

(disclaimer...speaking as myself here and not as a moderator. These are my opinions and are to be responded to as any other member)

Celine –

You’ve asked for people here to put themselves in your shoes and to really listen to your words. Just want to say it’s difficult to do that when your posts have generalized many groups of people as one, called people names, and when you seem to not want to put yourself in their shoes either. Especially for the adoptees posting, as I believe that no one but them can truly offer the insight of what an adoptee feels or would want/not want. True, no one “corners the market”, and every single person’s experience is unique, but I can’t see where anyone has tried to do that. I see people saying “hey, think about this”.

You say you know your son best…and that is probably true for a lot of things, but just in case there is the chance that you don’t know how he’ll feel regarding this issue, I’d think the words coming from other adoptees would be extremely valuable and deserving of your time.

Since you mentioned other adoptive parents and their perspective though, I’ll go ahead and jump in despite my better judgment because I’m getting the feeling from your posts that you seem to have all the answers and everyone else is just wrong for having a different opinion. That said though, here goes.

I understand you have a different situation and one that contains a lot more factors than the “average” infant adoption. I understand too that you wish to spare your son a lot of pain in discussing his background and beginnings. I too, have this challenge. It’s a fine line at times when some of us parents discuss adoption with our kids that do not have birth parents who voluntarily placed or who were less than stellar as people. In general, I don’t think we have a desire to tell our child that they were result of rape, that they were abused or that their bparents simply did not care or whatever the case may be. I think too, we are angry at their bparents at times and resent them for harming our children.

You’ve stated that you don’t want to rob him of his childhood or something to that effect. That it’s better for him to be in a state of bliss now and not force him to accept such grown up issues. Hmmm…well that’s one way to look at it. I’m curious though what bubble your child lives in because I don’t see how kids can be completely sheltered from anything difficult in the course of life. I also think kids handle things a lot better than us parents give them credit for at times. Just my opinion there though.

I look at it this way for my kids anyway… I will not have them thinking that adoption is a stigma or a horrible way to make a family. They have already suffered a lot and I will not add to that by keeping information that is theirs from them. True…some of the information is painful and not yet time to discuss at their young ages. There are indeed details that they are not ready to comprehend and that is okay. Nonetheless…it is THEIR information, history and RIGHT to have. I will not keep this from them when the time comes to discuss because to do so would only add more lies to their life. I believe this would only add more pain because as their parent, I believe I need to raise them to face their challenges head on, to learn to grieve and triumph over that grief. To learn that despite the losses they have had or the rotten things done to them, beneath it all, they are loved, they are worthy, very much wanted and that they can be proud of who they are.

Those are the details though…not the basic information of “yes, you were adopted and I did not carry you in my tummy.” My 6 & 5 year old boys were 3 & 2 when I became their mom. They have no memory of their early beginnings or of their birth parents, at least not that I can see. (removed from bparents at ages 2 &1) But they absolutely do know I did not carry them in their tummy; that they were born to another mom and dad. My youngest son cried when he made the realization that I did not give birth to him. He was sad that he wasn’t in my tummy and he was angry and refused to believe that there was another woman out there who did this. And yet, as I comforted him, he also realized that none of that took my love away from him. That I will always be his mom and I will always be there for him. And in his 4 year old mind (when he made the connection of what we’d been saying all along), he came to the conclusion that I am his mom and that’s that. As he grows, we continue to discuss and it’s more of a relaxed discussion or mention. He’ll say, “You have green eyes and I have brown” and I’ll say, “yes you do and you got those from L”. He’ll say, “I want green eyes like you!” And I say, “Oh, but I love your brown eyes and they are one of my very favorite things about you!” It’s sometimes difficult to teach a young child that there are differences but differences don’t mean “bad”. That some things he has are from other parents and then there are things he gets from his dad or me. And yet…we do it because it’s our hope that our children will celebrate who they are and part of that celebration includes their genetic traits/ birth parents. To deny the pieces of them that are not of us is to deny them pieces of themselves and I can’t do that to them.

In order to do all of this though…I have to start with the simple fact of “You are my child placed in my arms through adoption”…. it’s the celebration of starting their lives with us and of our family. I want to not only acknowledge this but also openly embrace it. Why wouldn’t I want my children to understand that there are all kinds of families and this is how ours came to be? To celebrate our family’s origin? I never want them to be ashamed of it and feel that if I were to hide it, then at the moment I finally decided to tell them, they would wonder “well, if this is such a good thing, why didn’t you tell me before now?” I don’t see how I could convince them that it “was in their best interests that I didn’t tell you”. Kids are smarter than that, in my opinion.

And I also firmly believe that waiting for “the perfect moment” to share this will never come. I don’t believe there is such a thing as the perfect moment. I do believe though that the longer we hold off on things, the harder it is to do it. You obviously have the right to tell him when you feel the time is right though, because you have that control. Just wonder if you can get past what I see as YOUR desire to not discuss it because it bothers YOU in order to give your child what is rightfully his…the pieces of his life.

[Mommy24]

I would like to add my 2 cents here for what it is worth..... I think waiting to tell our children about anything that pertains to their lives is not in the best interest of them. I can say this because I am trying to figure out how and when to tell my children they have a biological brother who I gave up for adoption. You see, the "time" has just never seemed to be "right", however he is only getting older and the "time" may be soon that he wants to find me, So now what have I done....I am making it look like he is a big secret( he is not, everyone except my children know about him) looks like I am ashamed (I am not) why didnt I tell them from the very beginning?? I didnt think it was in the best interest of them, but now I say......How do I tell them??? They are gonna hate me for keeping this all a secret and so I feel now I have messed everything up.....All Because I "thought" I knew what was best for my children, with the insight from others I am finding that I really dont know as much as I thought I did. Bottom line, ask questions, get advice, take what you want, let the rest go.....but always remember that those who have walked in the same shoes probably arent still trippin over their feet As for timing..... their is never a better time like the Presence.....Had I told my children from day one it would be normal now I have messed up and make it look like some awful situation that I was ashamed of, so who have I hurt MY CHILDREN! JMHO

[Southernroots]

Mommy 24 - I did not tell my other children - no one knew - and I WAS ashamed - not of my son - but that I had "given him away". Sorry if that term offends some - that was how it felt personally to me. The term "placement" (which I loath) did not exist then.

Until my son found me four years ago, I hadn't told a soul - too afraid and ashamed. After he found me, I told them -they have not taken the news well. Our relationships suffered for awhile. Now I know that had I told them years ago things might be different now. Both of my other two are married - one with children of her own. I have been asked not to tell my grandchildren about their uncle. Neither of my children wants contact with their half brother, nor do they want to discuss it. They love me as their mom, but, they are embarrassed and instead of taking it out on me (who they know and love) they have chosen instead to pretend that their brother does not exist.

So, yes, I agree that waiting to tell the truth only makes it way worse - and a perfect time may never happen. I have 3 children who may never all meet - and I have no one to blame but myself - and now I am paying the price.

[mrsred]

There are ways to tell a child he is adopted without sharing the "brutal" truth. A simple "your birth mommy couldn't take care of you so GOd helped me find you is enough". Why treat it like something shameful?
I am the adoptive mom of a boy that was neglected and abused because his young teenage mom was too busy getting high and partying to take care of him. Yes, I am angry with what she did (and didn't do) to my boy... but I would never play down the fact that he is adopted. God found him for us and us for him. What could be more wonderful? There is no awful truth of adoption.

[mn125]

As an adoptee who, to this very day has never been told about the *Other* mother - I'm thankful my aparents did one thing right.....I've "always" known I was adopted. It was left for me to figure out on my own just what that meant, though. My aparents have told friends, neighbors, and relatives more than they ever shared with me about *her*. In my family, she simply just didn't exist when it came to me knowing. A very big secret, and a whole lot of lies.......
I think that says A LOT about our relationship, unfortunately. Karma is the rule now. I've been reunited with *her* and my friends, neighbors and relatives ALL know. What comes around- goes around.


I hope the following article of a study done by Brodzinsky will be helpful to the thread here.....

Joe Mancuso
12/26/2005 5:47:07 PM
WebWire Related Industries

http://www.international-adoption-si.../articles.html

When do children really understand what Adoption means?


Today most Scientists & Adoption Agents are of the opinion that parents should inform their adopted children as soon as possible about their status. The issue should thereafter be discussed more often at various points in time to give the child/children a chance to grasp their special status and the opportunity to ask questions. Only an early introduction to the subject will give parents and children a chance to develop an open and trusting relationship between each other.



There are two sides to the process of informing a child about its adoptive status: First of all the information has to be passed on to the child and secondly the child has to understand the information it has been given.

It is more than likely that a 4 year old child can be made to refer to itself as adopted and further tell that it has grown in another womans womb before being adopted by its present parents. This however does not go to say that the child has understood what an adoption really means. More so it has to be assumed that due to the childs use of very specific vocabulary related to the issue of adoption the parents are lured into the false belief that their child fully understands the concept of adoption. By doing so, the cognitive capability of a small child is highly overestimated.

It takes approximately 10 years for an adopted child to fully grasp the information about its adoption which they have been given at the age of 3 or 4. This knowledge was the result of the scientific research by BRODZINSKY and his colleagues during the Rutgers Adoption Project (1986). The scientists examined 100 adopted children in comparison to 100 non-adopted children. There were 20 children in each age group: 4-5 years old, 6-7 years old, 8-9 years old, 10-11 years old and 12-13 years old. All adoptive children were adopted within the first 2 years of their life. Their understanding of the adoption was evaluated on the basis of a 6 grade chart.



Although the 4-5 year old children had all been informed about their adoption most of them did not have any understanding of the meaning of an adoption (grade 0). At an average age of 5 years and 6 months most examined children either assumed that all children in general were born to their biological parents or that adoption and giving birth are the same (grade 1). At the age of 7 years and 2 months children could distinguish between adoption and birth. They viewed it as 2 different means of becoming a part of a family. The relationship between the adoptive parents and the child was described by the children to be a permanent one. However they could not articulate a reason for the permanence of this relationship other than voicing the assumption that The child is now owned by its adoptive parents (grade 2).
At an average age of 8 years and 8 months the children were not so confident about the stability of the Parent-Child Relationship anymore. They believed that their biological parents would either claim them back one day or that their adoptive parents could also decide to give them away at some point in time (grade 3). At 10 years and 4 months of age the children were confident in the lastingness of the relationship between adoptive parents and child again. With regards to this newly found confidence they even referred to professionals in a position of authority such as Judges, Lawyers & Medical Doctors (grade 4). It was not until the average age of 12 years and 5 months that the adopted children understood that an adoption on a legal basis of specific laws incorporated the transfer of parental rights and duties from the biological parents to the adoptive parents (Grade 5).


The adopted children were aware of an Adoption Agency being involved in their adoption at an average age of 8 years and 1 month but did not know the actual task of the Agency. Approximately 10 months later they understood that this organisation plays a vital role in the process. In most cases the first assumption was that the Agencys purpose was to cater to the wishes of the future adoptive parents. Once at an average age of 11 years and 11 months the adoptive children understood that the Agency first and foremost acts on behalf and in the interest of the well being of the children put up for adoption, therefore screening the potential adoptive parents.



Brodzinsky and his colleagues research clearly shows that the understanding of an adoptive child with reference to its adoption develops in predictable phases. In the beginning the knowledge is still very general and slightly diffuse but becomes more sophisticated with time. This knowledge is also associated with a growing awareness of the connection with social organisations and the relating laws.



The research indicates how difficult it must be for a child under the age of 13 or 14 to process the fact of having a dual set of parents. Younger children dont grasp this concept at all, slightly older children find it hard to fit the characteristics of adoptive parents into their idea of a family concept. Eight and nine year olds know that parents and children are blood related. Adoptive children of this particular age group therefore question which family they are really part of their biological parents or their adoptive parents. Bearing in mind that children of this age group (8-9 year olds) have not yet understood the concept of adoption including all its implications it is not surprising that they feel insecure of their position within the adoptive family and voice a lot of questions regarding their heritage.

During a further examination of 156 adopted children aged 6-11 years old Brodzinsky and his colleagues (1986) found out that a childs comprehension of its adoption is neither influenced by structure of the adoptive family (only child, biological siblings, adopted siblings), their social status, the previous history of the child nor its age or condition of health at the time of adoption. This means that the comprehension develops through an intra psychological process by combining the newly received information with other relevant knowledge of family structure, social institutions, human motives, separation, loss, - etc. This Process is therefore imbedded in the overall cognitive development of the child.



The results of this research clearly show that parents and adoption agents generally expect the adoptive children to understand the process of an adoption too early. In return they are surprised when primary school children ask a lot of questions regarding their biological parents and their heritage, the reasons for being put up for adoption as well as being insecure in terms of their adoptive parents love and sometimes show signs of sadness and depression. Parents and experts do not understand these behavioural patterns and often wrongly judge it as negative although it is quite normal, age appropriate and probably inevitable. It is a sign that the children are trying to achieve a better understanding of the adoption. In order to do so they have to process the loss of their biological parents and the resulting emotions (sadness) at this age. This is being complicated by the lack of knowledge about their biological parents
Consequently it is vital that adoptive parents make themselves aware of the fact that adopted children will comprehend the adoption with all its implications not until they have entered their second decade of life. They (adoptive parents ) can help the child to achieve a positive and extensive comprehension of the adoption by openly and honestly discussing the issue instead of avoiding it. It is equally important that they are also aware of the difference between adoptive families and biological families further understanding the special status of their own family. Primarily they should not overstrain the child and confront it with unrealistic expectations but should give the child the time it needs for the long lasting cognitive development process which will conclude in a full comprehension of the adoption

[celinenj02]

Do you all understand that I do not plan on keeping a secret from my son? I have never done that. I do want to tell him more but in due time. Okay, I haven't told him there is another woman out there who carried him and I guess that part is going to shock him at this point in life. He is still very young and I have said in all my posts that I do plan on telling him soon, just don't think I needed to tell him when he was 6 months old or a year or 2 years old. I don't think that a 7 year old is going to resent me for not telling him in infancy or sooner. I think he will be glad to know at that young age. Why are you all trying to imply I am going to wait until he is full grown or not tell him at all?? Please read my posts carefully.

Crick, I think you have the best understanding of what I fear and what I am going through. Although you received your kids when they were older so in a sense it was easier for you. My children were infants and were never with their birth families (in their custody).

I thought it was cute though that my son said to me while eating lunch, mom why did you pick a kid who only likes to eat mac and cheese all the time? (Perhaps hearing that he is so special and chosen by me and daddy, etc.) So, I guess in a sense some of what I have told him has sunk in but the one major point I haven't told yet is that he was born of some "other" woman. He does know that he didn't grow in my belly, but he hasn't asked well where did I come from. If he had, I know I would have told him just then, but since he didn't ask I felt perhaps he can accept this one step at a time.

But I certainly do see how the longer I have waited has made it harder to talk with him about instead of easier. But I don't think I have waited too long just yet. It is close to the time, but I want to still get him very familiar with adoption in my own way.

Sorry if I sound defensive, I guess I am. And sorry if I sound resentful for birth mom hurting my son, I am. That's a topic we don't ever really talk about, but I notice that at first I was very sympathetic for her and in some ways I am but the older my son gets and when I see that he has some areas that he struggles with as a result of her bad choices, I admit I get sooo angry inside with her. Especially since she did it again and again after she had him. After, she and I even talked and I pleaded with her and told her how difficult of a time he had in the beginning and that he was a miracle. You are right though Crick, it is going to be so hard to talk about her in a positive light even though I will believe me I will for his sake, but at the same time it scares me because I know if I am too positive about her or the birth father he may not be prepared to defend himself if he decides to meet them someday, but I guess in time, I will reveal more and more. I hope he never ever has contact with his bio father, although I know it's my son's choice, but I just can't say much nice about that guy! Reality!

It's reality the feelings are real. I am defensive and I am protective over him and I admit that someday when he makes contact with her I will feel ferociously protective over him because I feel so strongly that she will "mess him up" in some way because sadly she is so messed up.

I appreciate what you are all saying that if he is exposed to these things he will be stronger and I do agree with that very much, but it is so hard when you are living it. I have doubts, and I need prayer and faith. I know that only God can answer my prayer that my son only grows up a strong, decent good man. That is all I want in this world. I just don't want any harm to come to him emotionally. I never realized how petrified I was of this subject until we have gotten into it here. But I guess it's good to deal with it now. I know I will come through fine. I am a strong person.

Thanks again for the advice. It has got me thinking. But please don't misunderstand I am telling him just not all at once, but he will know most of it fairly soon.

[crick]

Celine - I think this last post of yours is much closer to the truth. Also clears up some confusion and misunderstanding I had regarding your plans for discussing adoption with your son, so thank you for that.

What I see a little bit of is the challenge in separating out your own feelings regarding his birth parents and wanting to protect him from all of that. I understand that one! I don't always succeed in doing this myself. I try to remember that my feelings regarding their bparents are my own and there are just things that I owe them as their mom. Things I shouldn't have to tell them because of someone else's mistakes or wrongdoing, but ah...that's motherhood, no? Just a bit more difficult I think.

I just hope you can find a way out of the negativity issues surrounding it all and focus on the positive aspects too. I'm sure you do this already, but maybe try to remember that his adoption and joining your family should also be included in that positive line of thinking. It doesn't have to be full of the details and hard things right now. There is time for that.

Facing your fears is a good thing too and I wish you the best on continuing to do that.

[heartened]

If you need something to feel positive about regarding his birth mother and father, than focus on this and let go of everything else:

Regardless of what "crimes" or "ill deeds" this woman and man may have committed, the course of their lives led them to a moment. In that moment, that beautiful child you are honored enough to raise was conceived and then born.

Everything else PALES in compairison. Every foolish choice they made with their lives - to do drugs, to commit crimes, whatever - becomes meaningless next to the fact that they created the child you now call your own.

If you cannot embrace and focus upon that positive as overwhelming any negative, then truly, I feel sorry for you.

[Mommy24]

Celine.....((((hugs)))) Just want you to know that I am not judging you nor do I think that you will wait until your son is grown to tell him....just wanted to express how much harder it gets the longer you wait, with that said.....You are protecting your child in the best way you know how and not one of us Mom's could not possibly understand that! So you keep on and the answers will come and God will give you the strength and the words to follow.

[Southernroots]

And I also firmly believe that waiting for “the perfect moment” to share this will never come

Ah, yes, there is no perfect moment - many of us can attest to that.

Crick, I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your posts on this subject. Your first post particularly I thought was very passionate and I knew you were speaking from the heart. That's what I aim for.

Mn125 - Thanks for posting that interesting article - it was very informative and I liked it better than the one that I posted. Waiting till 2 even I think is not for the best. I will archive that article and next time some one asks me that question, it will be a good reference.

Heartened, your last post blew me away. It was such a positive and wonderful way to look at the situation and has to be a great way to frame it for a child. Thanks so much for your input.

Seems to me that we got an inaccurate picture of Celine's situation. She originally said I believe that she hasn't told her son - but, actually, I think it is that she hasn't told him the whole story. But, he does know that he is adopted. I imagine that she's feel somewhat besieged by now, but, I know that we all have concerns for her son. So, I believe the situation is not quite what I originally thought. Think that she still needs to start conversations with him about his adoptive status and keep them up as he grows. And, she definitely needs to heed all this advice about how she refers to his birth mom (in front of him or not). And maybe an attitude adjustment is needed as far as her general feelings about her. I understand having negative feelings for her if she's done all that she has, but, somehow, I think she needs to also work on having some positive ones too. A challenge, I know - and I understand that.

[celinenj02]

But be honest Southernroots, naturally from your perspective you are going to believe that telling a child from birth is best because you are a birth mom. From your perspective you would want that child to know that YOU exist. I can understand that. But it isn't about you, or birth moms for me. It is about my child. I will do what's best for him not what's best for birth mom.

If you think about it what I am expected to do is basically give my son a loaded gun. What do I mean? I have to tell him he has a birth mom and sadly she isn't the young gave my child up cause I got pregnant but I wanted the best home for him, etc. type of birth mom. She is a mess. She can and most likely will try to mess up my son. If she wan't such a mess, I would have no problem with my son learning about her and I would encourage contact, etc. Now whether or not you believe that my son should eventually have a relationship with this woman, his birth mother, you need to get in my shoes and understand that I am forced to expose the child, my child, that I have protected from any/all harms beyond what most mothers are expected to do, and then basically put him right in harms way by divulging this information.

This is not a cut and dry story of simply telling my son he is adopted, has a birth mother who loves him and now let's go on. No, this can of worms will inevitably be a threat to him and his wellbeing.

Now, you say I need to work through my negative feelings on the subject and to that I say 1) I don't have negative feelings 2) my feelings of being a protective mother over my child are normal in this particular situation.

Yes, I will present her positively to him. I love him too much not to. I will encourage him to forgive her and to accept that people are flawed and everyone will let him down in life in some way that's just human nature.

It is so hard I always said to feel that you have to protect a child from their birth family. You just don't understand that feeling. It is like a dichotomy! It is very difficult to be in my shoes but I know God put me here for a reason and I know He will bring me through it for my son.