[SKL]

OK, so the girls are between age 2.5 and 3 and I'm losing my patience. I know it's age appropriate for them to be inconsistent, selectively deaf, and borderline bipolar. But at the same time, I feel it's my job to help them think more logically and act more productively. About a month ago, after a particularly trying day, I planned out a speech I would use with my girls the next day. Something about how we can all be on the same team, cooperating to make our days pleasant. If the speech was ever delivered, it's been long forgotten by all.

I have plenty of methods to "deter" bad behavior, all of which work for varying amounts of time. Mostly the "deterrent" disciplines help us to stay just on the right side of the line for a while, but then if I don't come down on them every time they cross that line (even as a joke), we are back to square one. I'm back to asking DD multiple times to do each thing and eventually lose my cool. I'm pretty tired of this pattern, and I'd guess they are too.

I haven't done the "incentives" (e.g., stickers) thing because (a) I don't like the idea of paying kids to exhibit reasonable behaviors, and (b) I'd guess the incentives wouldn't work any better than the deterrents - without a more intrinsic motivation, the effect would be very temporary.

I'd love some ideas on how to motivate good behavior. Have you had a positive discussion with your kid(s) that made a real difference? What else have you tried? Or should I just find a drug that numbs me to the realities of age 2-3? (Just kidding on that last one - most aspects of this age are awesome!)

I should note that I'm not talking about clinically horrible behaviors. It's just that I feel in my heart that all three of us could do better. I feel I may be missing opportunities to get us all on the right path.

[mommytoEli]

without a more intrinsic motivation, the effect would be very temporary

i find that with my 3.5 year old that the short term incentives produce more than a temporary change in behavior bc i feel like the short term incentives provide enough time for him to develop a habit. he got used to being dry, got used to cleaning up his room, got used to staying in bed at night, so that when i took the incentives away, he had formed a habit. he is by NO means perfect, but when i step back and look at the thing he needs to work on the most, and provide a way for him to temporarily earn rewards for the desired behavior, the desired behavior sticks around LONG after the rewards are gone.

just my experience.

[Devora]

At this age I don't think a "talk" will work. What works for us is the plain, old-fashioned consistency + mom and dad keeping their cool so that we don't all feed off one another's negative emotions. (Feelings can be contagious.)

Incentives and deterrents that are given out in a "punishment" kind of way don't really work for our son (to a degree, of course, but not like for some kids, no matter how consistent we are with the). I just roll my eyes when someone says, "Have you tried stickers?" I know it works wonders for some children, but my son is very internally motivated (a great trait in an adult but not so convenient at 3 or 4). And because stickers aren't intrinsically motivating for him they don't have much effect, nor do other rewards. (I remind myself that the fact he's not easily bribed is a good thing -- I don't want him to be easily manipulated when he's older.) Some things that work for us:

1. The more emotional he gets, the calmer and quieter we get. As I said, feelings can be contagious and if we react loudly, with frustration, sternly, etc. then it just fuels the flames.

2. Instead, we respond very calmly and matter-of-factly. We find a simple phrase and use that same phrase every time so our reaction is very predictable (and boring) to him. For example, if he whines he hears "I'm sorry, but I can't understand you when you whine." If he forgets to ask politely for something (in our family that means "May I have ____, please?") he hears "Excuse me?" We will repeat the phrase, calmly, as many times as it takes for him to figure out what he needs to say differently.

3. For a while frustration led to throwing toys. So we put a box on the top of the refrigerator. If he throws something (later we extended it to leaving toys in rooms where he can play but isn't supposed to leave the toys), we silently pick it up and put it in the box. He doesn't even need the explanation anymore that when he is calm he can earn back the toy by doing a job. The jobs are simple, but contribute to family/household life such as emptying a small trash can, wiping off a counter, cleaning (to the best of his ability) the sliding glass door where he leaves handprints, etc. When he gets around to earning back an item (sometimes he doesn't ask for it for weeks) he is eager and proud to do the job. This has worked wonders, I think because the process is predictable + it gives him control over the object (versus us returning it when we think he's ready) + he has a sense of accomplishment when he finishes the job. That's not to say that the box is always empty! But it's never full anymore like it was at first and the negative behaviors are far less frequent, less extreme when they happen, and less likely to lead to a prolonged tantrum.

4. When there are other things that have consequences we calmly and simply explain "You chose to do ___ and so now the consequence is _____ because _____." The consequences are logically connected to what was done.

5. (Hardest one for me) We don't give in out of sympathy or to avoid conflicts. Our son can smell inconsistency a mile away! For example, this morning he wanted to take a particular toy and the 4 accompanying parts to pre-school. I said he could take 1 of the accompanying parts or none. He ended up throwing them down and then bawling when I silently put them in the box. I was tempted to give him a few minutes to calm down and then give him a job. But the fact is that we would then have been running late. Although I have lots of flexibility in my work schedule, given my current workload it creates a lot of stress for me if I shave off any time on the three preschool days. So I resisted that temptation and went with what was reasonable given the circumstances and consistent with our requirement that he be truly calmed down. (We don't set a time limit until he can do a job, but he does truly have to be completely calm with no threat of the tantrum resurfacing.) So I explained matter of factly that he could do a job when he came home in the afternoon and I would be glad to give it back to him then.

6. Telling the story of what happened: I don't do this often, but sometimes it really seems to help. Usually I ask my son to explain to me (when he's calm) what happened (i.e., what choice he made and what the consequence was). But sometimes (like this morning) he will say he wants me to say it. So then I tell it to him as a story. I start with something like, "What I saw was..." and I tell it in the same way as I tell happy stories to him about things we've done in the past. Then at the end I ask him if that's what he saw happen, too. (This morning he actually added a piece that I left out.) When I do this it really seems to wash away the last of the frustration. I don't know why it works and it's not actually something that I do a ton of (perhaps I should do it more). But it seems to model for him how to think about what happened in a more calm and positive way. I think when I have him tell me it sometimes feels to him like I'm interrogating him. Naturally that wouldn't feel good. Given your girls' ages, telling the story approach might work better right now than having them explain their own behavior. (Although we had our son explain his behavior from the time he could talk; it just wasn't always a detailed explanation.)

7. I try to reframe things in a positive way. So whether he's told me what happened or I've told him the story of what happened, I end it with something like, "I'm confident that next time you will..." This usually gets a good response because it shows I have confidence in his abilities and that I see the good behavior as well as the negative behavior. Occasionally he reacts negatively by saying something like, "No I won't. I'm going to throw my toy again." That's an indicator to me that he's still feeling out of sorts. In those cases I usually find that giving him space is best. If I jump in to lecture or talk more about it he'll get ramped up again so I'll just say something like, "Okay. Maybe we can talk about it later. I'll let you listen to your music now (if we're in the car; if not, some other appropriate thing)."

Those are the first things that come to my mind. You're right that you want your daughters to grow into thinking logically and contributing to family and community life. But the way we get kids there is a process of little things, one at a time, often times over and over again. It's a paradox -- we need to parent them with an eye to the next developmental level while at the same time accepting the present reality.

[JillnChris]

Just hang in there. I know it is easier said then done.
Having zero impulse control is a characteristic of their developmental stage. They just can't do it. They can't think of anything but what they want to do.
I'm a big fan of super nanny and there was one episode where she scolded the parents for "lecturing" the two year as they do not have the attention span for this yet and it would not sink in anyway.
I believe the only thing that will stick is positive reinforcement and immediate age appropriate discipline and LOT'S AND LOT'S of patience. I have many days where I lose it as well so you are not alone. I find that whenever I am at my witz end and reach out for help that is when things start to turn around!

[b_fettes]

Hi,

I personally think the most effective method is 100 % consistency with whatever form of punishment you choose and to always make huge efforts to praise children when they are doing what is expected , not just when they are exceptional. As a teacher I am always shocked at how so many parents find it hard to praise their kids and so there is always attention given to negative behaviors. I am NOT saying this about you, just making the observation. I praise kids loads in class and I find they respond really well and then want to please.
Also the choice of deterrent is important, its pointless to select something which does not impact the child. Our kids hate having the TV switched off in the evening and they like some little dessert after tea, losing these privileges have an impact for us.
Good luck!

[Theslaws]

I have found that the Love and Logic program has some good ideas. They talk alot about logical consequences and making your children responsible for their actions and the results of them. And its very logical (hence the name) They have specific books/CD's targeted for preschoolers.

Good luck! Our girls are 2.5 and just turned 4. These ages are tons fo fun but very trying as you have said! Especially when they feed off each other!

[Slatond10]

Please take my advise w/ a grain of salt as I only have "1" and I am not a model parent nor is my child a model child. (if u've ever read my post you know that!)

But we went thru a real hard time when she was in the 2's. And my mother actually "talked" to me about my behavior . She recommended that we take a weekend away and for me to purposely focus only on the positive behavior of DD. (and there is LOTS of positive behavior to focus on). We went camping and I tried real hard to notice / compliment and praise her positive behavior and we both did a 180^ turn after that weekend.

I slip into the "other" parent occasionally but at least I catch myself and re-focus both of us. It was AMAZING to me how noticing and praising positive behavior resulted in so much more positive behavior.

But w/ 2 @ this age, I know u have ur hands full and probably a much better parent than me to start with.
Good luck!

[cmfayz]

I'm with Erin on the Love & Logic approach. DH and I took the class together a couple years ago and it was great. Our boys are 4 and almost 3 and the techniques we learned work really well with them.

[crick]

Originally Posted by mommytoEli

i find that with my 3.5 year old that the short term incentives produce more than a temporary change in behavior bc i feel like the short term incentives provide enough time for him to develop a habit. he got used to being dry, got used to cleaning up his room, got used to staying in bed at night, so that when i took the incentives away, he had formed a habit. he is by NO means perfect, but when i step back and look at the thing he needs to work on the most, and provide a way for him to temporarily earn rewards for the desired behavior, the desired behavior sticks around LONG after the rewards are gone.

just my experience.

Yes, yes yes!

I think a way you might look at the "incentives" too is not as paying them, but simply letting them know you see how hard they are working and you appreciate it. Kids this age are not going to get the message through a discussion or lecture. They need to SEE more than hear, imo.

Right now they are learning the expected behavior and that doesn't just happen overnight. So to encourage them to keep learning I think a little motivation is a good idea. If you think about it, we as adults do better when we have motivation and rewards to look forward to. It's just as an adult, we are able to look at it differently and the reward isn't necessarily a material item etc.

Remember too, that kids seem to always need reminders on all that "boring" stuff we expect them to just KNOW. Seriously..their brains are constantly going, losing, gaining, filling, filtering etc. So I think sometimes too we have to remember to cut them slack.

Another thing I'm always reminding myself of is that I have to change up my parenting style from time to time. Some things work for awhile, and then it's necessary to try something new.

[Mommy K]

There are 3 types of discipline to direct behavior-
Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement and punishment.

Positive reinforcement is used when you want a behavior repeated, and a reward is *given*. (stickers, a etc.) This supports the behavior. It has to be consistant, until the behavior happens without the reward.

Negative reinforcement is when something is *taken* away for undesirable behavior, such as a time out (time away from fun).

Punishment is something that is *given* too-such as raking leaves, or extra chores etc, when an undesirable behavior happens Punishment usually is effective when a child is older.

There are 3 parenting styles too-

Authoritarian, example--Do it becuase I say so-no explaination given in this style. This is a strict syle, and it works for some children, but other children will rebel.

Authorative-When you ask and give a reason such as If you don't clean your room it will be very messy and maybe germs will come-

and Permissive-(anything goes).

When disciplining a child using positive reinforcemet they will start to make a subconsious connection to the reward and feel good about behaving well, and repeat the good behavior. Even when a reward is no longer given-the good feeling remains. Even praise can be used as a positive reinforcement if you feel that stckers etc. are not for you.

It sounds on the surface like bribing - If a reward is given for undesirable behavior-such as crying for candy in a supermarket, and a parent buys it to silence a child, this is reinforcing the crying behavior. The child is being rewarded for undesirable behavior, and will continue.

You also have to see that negative attention is considered a "reward". If a child misbehaves, and an undue amount of attention is given because of this-the child is being rewarded & positvely reinforced to repeat attention getting behavior. The positve means they *get* something in return..

The same is true with the negative reinforcement and punishments, they will start to know subconsiously that an unpleasant feeling will happen if they behave inappropriately, and they want to avoid it.

The key is to find your parenting style, adjust it to your children individually and use each type of discipline consistantly.

hope this helps!

[arthymom]

I am enjoying all of your various parenting tips.

In our house, ds (now 6) is great with "if this doesn't happen, this will get taken away." or "if you don't eat this, no desert." So I guess a punishment/reward system, but always with reasons attached...He knows why it's important to finish the broccoli...That's what works for us. As for intrinsic motivation, I save that for important things like how he treats other kids, how he speaks to us, etc....I won't compromise on those points or use rewards. Good old fashioned time out if those are breached, and thank goodness we have done something right because those moments are rare.

Dd doesn't seem to respond as well to that, but she is also younger (3). I think that younger kids don't always have the logic to process a consequence...So when the consequence gets carried out, each time, they throw the tantrum. I think it's a lack of logical skills at 3. So with her, I keep everything simple, which for a 3 year old, does involve a lot of rewards...I don't have a problem with that even when the rewards are gummi bears and sweedish fish and the occasional lollipop. Call me a bad mom for that but I have reasonably happy kids most of the time, provided that they get sleep (which unfortunately is where we still have most of our issues at my house.)

[Guatemomtobe]

I like the love and logic also. I do a lot of positive reinforcement and I am not talking stickers or anything. I give a lot of praise. I ignore some of the "less desireable" behavior. If she gets no reaction (postive or negative) very often she will just stop doing it. I seek out her good behaviour and really praise it a lot. I also do a lot with logical consequences and how I phrase things. Instead of saying "no you can't have ice-cream because you didn't eat your dinner, clean your room, etc." I say, "yes you can have ice-cream when you finish your dinner." Then if she doesn't finish her dinner and doesn't get ice-cream and fusses about it I say, "i'm sorry you didn't eat your dinner. I hope you do better tomorrow so you can have ice-cream." I think a lot is trial and error. I do try to be consistent but we all have our moments when our kids just push our buttons and we react in ways that we are not proud of.

Good luck!

[SKL]

Originally Posted by Slatond10

My mother actually "talked" to me about my behavior . She recommended that we take a weekend away . . . .

This reminds me of a chat with my parents about a month ago. I was describing how I'd descended to the level of screeching something idiotic at my child (yeah, I'm that perfect). My dad looked at my mom and said something about how they ought to step in and give me a break, i.e., babysit a bit. (I pointed out that their health made that highly unlikely at that point, but it was a nice thought.)

I have to keep reminding myself that although my kids are bright and logical about almost everything else, that doesn't mean they're going to be logical about behavior and emotions. And though intellectually I understand this, sometimes I just can't believe that my kid can sing the National Anthem, give driving directions, and remind me of things that happened last Christmas, but she can't carry out a simple request such as carrying her shoes to the doormat without being reminded 20 times. So yeah, sometimes I get stupid and add to the problem by raising my voice.

Sometimes I wonder if DD2 has a screw loose because she just doesn't seem to develop habits. For the past year, at every meal, I have reminded her multiple times to keep her "milk in a safe place." So let's see, that has to be about 4000 reminders. Seriously. Do you think she's learned? No. DD1 developed the habit very quickly. I know no 2 kids are the same, but seriously, is there such a thing as dys-habit-exia? Because my kid has it.

[Devora]

I have reminded her multiple times to keep her "milk in a safe place."

As long as you are reminding her, she doesn't have to take responsibility for remembering it. With our son when we use questions instead of instructions they are so much more effective. For example:

Mom: Is your milk supposed to be by your elbow?
J: No
Mom: Where is it supposed to be?
J: either moves the milk OR answers; if he answers then we continue with...
Mom: What do you think you should do about it?
J: moves the milk
Mom: Good idea!

[SKL]

Originally Posted by Devora

As long as you are reminding her, she doesn't have to take responsibility for remembering it. With our son when we use questions instead of instructions they are so much more effective.

Trust me, I've tried it all! Reminders, socratic method (20 different versions of logical questions - my favorite approach actually), peer pressure, threats, natural consequences, artificial consequences, guilt, exasperation, rewards, affirmations, humor, ignoring, . . . and I know now someone is going to say I should have been "consistent" instead, but really, 4000 iterations! And this is just one example of a simple habit she won't acquire.