[mommytoEli]

i remember when i was a teacher, the office said if 1 of the 4 items were checked on the home language survey, the student had to be tested for english proficiency to see if they needed to be serviced in ESL.

so this morning i look it up, here are the 4 items:

1. was the child born outside of the US? yes. strike 1.
2. what was the child's first language? spanish. strike2
3. what language most spoken at home? english. pass.
4. what language most spoke by student? english. pass.

even if i adjust the truth on #2 and say "techinically" the first language he SPOKE was english, that still gives him a 1/4.

does that mean they seriously want to test our kids who have been here since babies/young toddlers to see if they need english as a second language services? lol. it seems silly......what has happend to those of you who have school age internationally adopted kiddos?

[dac_cincy]

I can't speak to our children, but I can speak to the teen I am hosting,

She meets 3 of the above criteria- born outside the US, first language is German, language at home- German and English (but more German right now). Technically, I could mark the final question as German.

But in any case, my school district did nothing. Maybe they realize this is an exchange student and therefore are not pressing for services. I know another student with the same program is from Japan and she is already struggling 2 weeks into the school year.

So my impression in my district is that if I the parent don't push, no matter what is marked on the form, the district will do nothing.

love and hugs,

[sak9645]

When Becca was almost ready for school, and I was debating between private and public education, I took her to our local school district to register, at least on a preliminary basis. Becca was 4 then, and came home from China when she was 18.5 mo. old.

Becca is extremely verbal and was, as usual, talking a blue streak (in perfect English) while we were at the school. Still, I had three different people ask me if she needed ESOL services, because she was foreign born.

I got so tired of explaining that English was actually Becca's first language, since she was not speaking either Mandarin or the local dialect when I met her, that I decided not to consider the public school. If the staff were so unwilling to look at and listen to my child, jabbering away with a large vocabulary and no foreign accent at all, I figured that the school wasn't the right place for her.

The private school turned out to be perfect for her. By the time she was in second grade, she was reading English at above the sixth grade level. She was also doing very well in immersion Hebrew, to the point where her teacher, an Israeli, said that she actually sounded like a native speaker, because her accent was so good.

Becca's now 13. She's still a verbal little monkey. Only she's in International Baccalaureate English and third year French, now that she's in 9th grade. She has also completed eight years of Hebrew. She listens to and understands Israeli rock music, and once repeated some gossip that she heard two Israeli teens discussing, in Hebrew, at the pharmacy, concerning a rock star who had cosmetic plastic surgery on her butt!

ESOL, my big foot. What she now needs is CSOL -- Chinese for speakers of other languages -- since the IB program is full of Chinese kids whose Chinese parents have made them fluent in that language, as well as encouraging them to get good grades in English and other languages. In our community, the Chinese parents don't ask, "Does your child attend Chinese school?" They ask, "WHERE does your child attend Chinese school?" Becca will be at a disadvantage socially, because she has only had one semester of Chinese, back when she was 10 or so.

Sharon

[MamaS]

sak9645 I am glad your school choice worked for Becca, but in fairness to the public school, they were behaving correctly. Many children can speak a language fluently without comprehending at grade/age level. The school system is required to identify and serve ALL children in need of ESOL. A simple 20-minute test would have shown your child did not need it. End of story.
But --- the little Mexican boy who is chattering away in English may have a social vocabulary but not a learning vocabulary and be in need of services. He could speak just as fluently as your Becca, but not have the depth because he hears Spanish at home, Spanish in the community, Spanish TV and Spanish radio -- maybe even Spanish mass. ESOL helps these children learn the "language of learning" so they can show that they are as smart as your child.

[momraine]

My daughter came home at ten months. She knew a few words in Russian, most of them cuss words that turned our translator red. LOL. When she started school she was of course very fluent. They asked and I said no she did not need it and that was the end of it. Of course being Russian, only people who actually read her paperwork knew she was not my birth child, so maybe that helped.
My son on the other hand was six and half when he came home. Completely fluent in Polish. Also he being Roma, did not look like (blond) or dh (redhead) and he still has a bit of an accent three years later, though no one but me seems to hear it. He did need ESL. Now when they offered the summer program, I said no, because I knew that while the other children in the program would not be speaking English at home over the summer, he would be. Because of the immersion at home, he was out of ESL in a year. He was so far ahead of the other kids in there. He still has holes in his vocabulary and so still counts as ESL for some testing purposes. I am glad it was there for him. I kept him back one year in school, but I think without that extra help the first year, he would be even more behind.

[mevertin]

Interesting thread. My 26 month old was tested by EI a few weeks ago and qualified for services in expressive language. We had his IFSP meeting and set up our first visit. As the speech person was leaving she said "maybe I should have qualified him as ESL." What? He came home at 8.5 months. Spanish is technically his first language, but he is in an English speaking environment and all his words are in English. I thought that was so weird. As long as he is receiving services I guess it doesn't matter what his label is, although now I am worried that the checked box on some form is going to haunt him as he moves through the system. Our 4 year old was assessed for speech 3 times before he finally qualified and the ESL label never came up.
Mary
mom to Bobby 12, Bridget 11, Angela 9, Eddie 4 (home in 2005) and Naldo 2 (home Feb. 08)

[mommytoEli]

Originally Posted by mevertin

Interesting thread. My 26 month old was tested by EI a few weeks ago and qualified for services in expressive language. We had his IFSP meeting and set up our first visit. As the speech person was leaving she said "maybe I should have qualified him as ESL." What? He came home at 8.5 months. Spanish is technically his first language, but he is in an English speaking environment and all his words are in English. I thought that was so weird. As long as he is receiving services I guess it doesn't matter what his label is, although now I am worried that the checked box on some form is going to haunt him as he moves through the system. Our 4 year old was assessed for speech 3 times before he finally qualified and the ESL label never came up.
Mary
mom to Bobby 12, Bridget 11, Angela 9, Eddie 4 (home in 2005) and Naldo 2 (home Feb. 08)

i don't think it will haunt him forever. i am *pretty* sure they can't just qualify him on a whim. i am *pretty* sure he has to take a test and prove he is not fluent in english to qualify.

[robandjulie]

Interesting thread.

We're not at that bridge yet, but it does make me nervous. I remember reading this article in April

Sioux City Journal : Student rejects 'demeaning' test, is suspended

In short: A 1st generation Laotian student had high honors, scholarships lined up, advanced English courses with A's, etc. so clearly had no ESL challenges. But because she spoke primarily her parent's native language at home she responded honestly and proudly on forms that her first language was not English, that English was in fact her second language. Because of that she was forced to take ESL type tests every year and finally protested that it was an insulting waste of time and resources and the school should use common sense and see her GPA and such and know she doesn't need services. She was threatened with expulsion, scholarship revocation, not graduating, etc.

I guess my fear is that having to mark it will someday put DS in the same loop and he'll also have to endure pointless "the box was checked so show up or else" testing. I wonder what the ramifications would be for just lying on that form...?

And Brooke, did you summarize Q#1 and it's a more thoughtful question on the form? I don't really see the merit in even asking that question. What if it was "yes" but the child was born in, oh...Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, The Bahamas, New Zealand, etc etc where English is an official (or unofficial but dominant)language? Or #1 is "no" but the child lives within a non-English-speaking culture in the US? I just don't see how #1 provides ANY information about the potential language challenges a child may be entering school with while #2, 3, and 4 at least are relevant to language exposure and proficiency.

[mommytoEli]

julie...no...question #1 was verbatim. lol. but you are right.

where i taught in CA, if a child scored proficient in english on the test, they were exited, never tested again. no label. no services. there should be no endless, pointless loop of tests...because it should be 1) take the test 2) determine proficiency level- either tha child IS proficient- and exited, or is NOT proficient and receives services. if a child is eligible for services, they ARE tested yearly to track their progress and once they are proficient, they are also exited. it sounds like the girl in the story purposefully failed it the first time...in which case the district is just trying to follow protocol by retesting. i do agree in light of her amazing grades, someone should just mark english on her file and get over it....but i don't know how easy that is. *shrugs*

[stephjoel99]

I would rather subject my child to a 20 minute test so that other children don't fall through the cracks. In the realm of the government and government run schools, it's probably very difficult to have subjective criteria (i.e. 'adopted so lost first language') in addition to the criteria already listed. It's not going to kill the kids to take a test. JMHO.

[RomGuatMom]

My daughter who came home at 15 months old was not tested for ESL in school. My second daughter came home at 6 years old and I asked for her to be tested, not trusting they would do it otherwise (lots of history with this school district not following through). She has been home 5 years this month and just tested out of the program because she met the criterior of speaking, reading, and writing English. But, she still has trouble with comprehension -- especially complex concepts. I had a friend whos daughter came home at age 3 and at age 6-7 when she was having some trouble in school was tested and qualified. My 1st daughter is now 11 and has had trouble in school and now it makes me wonder if maybe I should have asked for her to be tested early on -- based on that history I doubt they would agree to it now.
It is a short and easy test so I say go for it if it is offered. What could it hurt?!

[Amber76]

Originally Posted by robandjulie

And Brooke, did you summarize Q#1 and it's a more thoughtful question on the form? I don't really see the merit in even asking that question. What if it was "yes" but the child was born in, oh...Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, The Bahamas, New Zealand, etc etc where English is an official (or unofficial but dominant)language? Or #1 is "no" but the child lives within a non-English-speaking culture in the US? I just don't see how #1 provides ANY information about the potential language challenges a child may be entering school with while #2, 3, and 4 at least are relevant to language exposure and proficiency.

Sadly, I had a friend who was from New Zealand who spoke perfect English (of course) who had to take an English proficiency test to get her US nurse's license! I can understand her having to take the US nursing licensure tests and such, but the English one was a bit much!

[sak9645]

I was not trying to brag about Becca. My point was that adopted children are not like other immigrants. When I took Becca to register at school, she was speaking fluent English because I, an American born woman, was speaking fluent English. And the school had her adoption decree, showing that she came home when she was 18 months of age, to a non-Chinese family.

International adoption is extremely common in Washington, DC and its suburbs. You can go to a Chinese New Year party and find 400 or more families with Chinese children. You can walk down the street almost any day and see families that were obviously formed by adoption, and there are probably twice as many that you don't recognize as adopted, simply because they are of the same race as their parents.

The school where I tried to enroll Becca is full of adopted kids, many of them from overseas. I find it totally amazing, in this day and age, that the school automatically lumped adopted children in with the children of new immigrant parents, and assumed that she might need English services. I certainly would have asked about ESOL, if Becca was newly home and struggling. But she was adopted as a baby, and brought into a family in which English was the primary language. They could see that, so it made no sense for them to ask if she needed ESOL.

Also, schools have to be more conscious of differences, even in looking at the immigrant community. The American immigrant community is extremely diverse. Becca has many Chinese friends who do not speak English at home. Their grandparents often do not speak English at all, and their parents may speak with an accent. But ALL of the kids speak beautiful English, because the parents made sure that they learned it. In many cases, these parents had good educations and jobs in their home country, so there is a tradition of education. These kids do not need ESOL. In fact, my daughter's IB program, to which one is accepted based on a very rigorous test, has such a large proportion of Chinese people that you stand out as "different" if you are White, Black, or Hispanic.

There are other groups, in addition to Chinese people, who function this way in the U.S. Although many Muslim kids go to Islamic schools, I have met a number of children who speak Arabic at home, but excellent English in public schools. Many Indian kids speak the dialect of their part of India at home, but use very good English at school, and so on. In general, the families of these kids had a good education overseas, and come from a culture and socioeconomic background that values education.

On the other hand, the area has a very large population of low income families from many parts of the world -- Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, Pacific Islands, etc. Many are recent immigrants, and many work at several jobs to keep food on the table. They may not have time to focus on their children's language skills. They may, themselves, be illiterate in their native language, and may have come from countries where free public education was not available, so they were unable to go to school. ESOL is very much needed for their children to succeed.

In short, it is not fair to stereotype all kids born overseas. There's a big difference between adopted kids and the children of other immigrants. And there's a big difference between the immigrant children of families who were educated professionals in their home countries, and those whose parents had minimal education in their native lands.

I applaud schools for trying to accommodate kids whose native language is not English, or whose parents speak a non-standard version of English. But assuming that a child born in another country will automatically need ESOL is just as rude, in my book, as assuming that he/she speaks good English, when he/she has not had the opportunity to learn it.

My daughter's private school, when she attended it, was not quite as diverse as the public schools, for obvious reasons. Still, there were a lot of kids whose parents spoke Hebrew, Farsi, Amharic, Russian, or Spanish at home. In most cases, their kids spoke good English, though some children had limited prior exposure to English and needed some help. It was not assumed that all the kids spoke good English or did NOT speak good English. Help was available if a parent requested it, or if the child struggled.

The school also taught Hebrew by immersion. Some kids at the school were already fluent in Hebrew, and were able to follow a curriculum that prepared them to meet the high school graduation requirements of the state of Israel. Others had either no Hebrew knowledge or very little. Each child was assessed, and some children entering after kindergarten were assigned to an ulpan, or special class designed to bring a child up to grade level in Hebrew as quickly as possible.

Our country is not very good when it comes to the issue of language learning. Most American-born kids never achieve fluency in a second language, though many kids born in other countries are expected to know at least two languages. We do not provide free public English/American culture classes for adult immigrants and, if necessary, give subsidies for six months or a year, so that people can attend yet pay their living expenses. And we don't look at adopted kids and other immigrants as individuals, when it comes to deciding who gets English services.

[avoel]

My oldest is just turned 7, and in first grade. The subject of ESL has never come up (nor has it for my 4.5 year old who has been recieving speech services thru the school district since age 3 as well). While I don't specifically remember being asked about it at school, whenever it does come up I do mark their ethnicity as Hispanic, and their first language as English (both were home as fairly young infants).

[MamaS]

Originally Posted by sak9645

I was not trying to brag about Becca. My point was that adopted children are not like other immigrants.
I find it totally amazing, in this day and age, that the school automatically lumped adopted children in with the children of new immigrant parents, and assumed that she might need English services. I certainly would have asked about ESOL, ... if she needed ESOL.

Also, schools have to be more conscious of differences, even in looking at the immigrant community. The American immigrant community is extremely diverse. Becca has many Chinese friends who do not speak English at home. Their grandparents often do not speak English at all, and their parents may speak with an accent. But ALL of the kids speak beautiful English, because the parents made sure that they learned it. In many cases, these parents had good educations and jobs in their home country, so there is a tradition of education. These kids do not need ESOL. In fact, my daughter's IB program, to which one is accepted based on a very rigorous test, has such a large proportion of Chinese people that you stand out as "different" if you are White, Black, or Hispanic.

On the other hand, the area has a very large population of low income families from many parts of the world -- Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, Pacific Islands, etc. Many are recent immigrants, and many work at several jobs to keep food on the table. They may not have time to focus on their children's language skills. They may, themselves, be illiterate in their native language, and may have come from countries where free public education was not available, so they were unable to go to school. ESOL is very much needed for their children to succeed.

In short, it is not fair to stereotype all kids born overseas. There's a big difference between adopted kids and the children of other immigrants. And there's a big difference between the immigrant children of families who were educated professionals in their home countries, and those whose parents had minimal education in their native lands.

I applaud schools for trying to accommodate kids whose native language is not English, or whose parents speak a non-standard version of English. But assuming that a child born in another country will automatically need ESOL is just as rude, in my book, as assuming that he/she speaks good English, when he/she has not had the opportunity to learn it.

I am truly sorry that you were so offended by the public school's suggestion that your Becca be tested for ESOL placement. I am also glad you found a private school that recognized and fostered her abilities.
However, you have totally missed the point of ESOL testing. It is not to insult their parents -- it is to help the child have a successful educational experience.

Imagine three families lined up, waiting to register their children in a public school kindergarten. The first family consists of CC parents and their adopted Chinese daughter. The school secretary looks at them and decides -- "The child was adopted as a baby and the CC parents probably can't speak Chinese, so they would only have spoken English to their child. No reason to test her."
Family number two are two Chinese doctors working here in the U.S. and their biological daughter. The school secretary decides "If they are educated enough to pass the medical boards and work in the U.S. then they must speak fluent English. Everyone knows that the Chinese value education, so they certainly would have taught their child English and Spanish. No reason to test her."
Family number three are two native born Chinese who work as a cook and waitress in a local Chinese takeout. The school secretary decides "The parents work long hours and have very little time to spend with their children. They probably have very little education and speak broken English. Better test their child."

Parents would be outraged if they found out that their children were being tested based on the educational level or employment status of the parents. The simplest and fairest way to locate all the children in need is to screen them as a group. If they pass the original screening, that is it. If they fail the screening, they are offered services that will help with classwork and standardized testing. (Offered -- services are not compulsary).

As for testing children from "English-speaking" countries such as New Zealand, all I can say is that American English is very different from UK English.
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