[jennandsteve]

Yesterday morning was awful. My three year old apparently bopped my 5 yr old daughter in the nose and she kicked, yes kicked him in the face. This happens in their bathroom while they are supposed to brushing their teeth and I am downstairs trying to get dressed for work and waiting for our nanny to arrive who is 10 mins late. I hear screams, more then the usually fighting and complaining, doors slamming and my son comes down the stairs holding out his hand. I assume she must have slammed the door on it. He screams "I boken and bweeding" what the hll? His nose is pouring blood. I yell up to her, what did you do. She yells back, "by the way, I am bleeding too" Seriously this was the conversation. I grab two towels and get blood all over my sweater and try to get an explanation. He wanted to go in her room, she tried to push him out, he punched her, she kicked him the face...result two bloody noses. Is this normal? What the heck do I do?

HELP!

I just want them to appeciate and love each other.

[annaguat]

No, I do not think it normal but then I do also think they are pretty young to be getting ready al by them selves and be unsupervised. Kids do get mean with each other at times and go through phases. usually there is tension and rivalry between siblings closer in age more so then the ones further apart in age.
Anna

[dac_cincy]

Well, to be honest- this was fairly normal for my sister and I - we had knock drag out fights from age 3 or 4 until I was 16. We were kowing to slam heads into concrete floors, punch anywhere and everywhere we could get to. I am surprise that my parents continued to allow us share anything beucase of the volume of fights we got into with each other.

We are only 13 months apart and our personalities are completely opposite- so I am sure that did not help. Even now in our 40s, we can push each other's buttons in a matter of seconds and we can stand about 20 minutes of each other at times.

I am not sure that it should have been considered normal and I know we certainly got punished for our fights- but nothing seemed to deter us from attempting to beat each other up.

I am sorry I can't offer more advice. I certainly hope there is a solution offered ot you that will help the situation

[mommytoEli]

my 3.5 and 6 have a similar history. we have a lost tooth due to eli's head, and MANY incidents of broken skin thanks to eli's teeth. typically my younger one assaults the older one. but typically after the older one has totally pushed his buttons. we are working on communicating with eachother and responding appropriately.

they also get themselves ready in the morning. they actually started doing it themselves. one morning before i got up to their room i noticed them in the bathroom, completely dressed and ready for their day. they have been doing it every morning since, for about 2 months now. i LOVE it!

i don't know really how to foster respect for one another, other than practicing good conversation and response techniques. lol. i know for my 2, that if i try to separate them to solve the problem, they cry for eachother. never before have i seen 2 boys who have so much love for eachother, but can turn around and still stab eachother in the back....sometimes literally.

[jennandsteve]

Thanks

By the way they do not get ready totally by themselves. But they do go upstairs, while I am in very easy hearing range, and wash their hands and brush their teeth. I usually follow up on the three year olds teeth. They can then take off jammies and put on their own clothes that we have laid out the night before. They do the same thing at night, brush teeth and washe hands and put on jams. My son especially is very proud that he gets his clothes and jams on by himself. I mean at 3.5 and 5.5 if you can't wash your hands and brush your teeth without face time with mommy...that seems to me to be a problem. And at least at our pediatrician's office they start asking if they can do these things by themselves at 2.5. They fight when I am standing next to them in the kitchen. It is the lack of respect for each other I am concerned about and hope to get advice.

[mommytoEli]

i'm sorry. i meant to say we have them practice responses to eachother. we have them rewind and practice what they could have done or said instead. it takes a long time and lots of patience and practice to make a difference. but we have been hearing less screaming lately.

on the other hand, i have 2 others that are older that i never could convince to respect eachother, now they just aren't allowed in the same room together unattended. and they are nearly 15 and 16. lol.

good luck! it is frustrating to hear them at odds.

[angelkisses0102]

My kids are 23 months apart (DD is 8, DS is 6)...fighting as described is not common at our house...but lots of yelling and tattling is. I do not allow physical fighting...never have...never will...but that's just us.

As for the respecting each other...besides using our religion...one little trick that I learned from another parent was this. Have them sit on the floor...legs criss-crossed...facing each other and holding each others hands. They must stay that way until each of them can say something nice to the other, in an appropriate tone of voice. I started this around your kids age...maybe a little younger...and it works wonders. First time it took forever...now we rarely have to do it.

It's tough...but now that my kids are six and eight...I'm glad we did pushed the being respectful. They really have a great relationship and we rarely have issues with them fighting. One other thing...they must respect each others bedrooms...and they can tell the other, no I do not want to play right now. Or no, you may not come into my room...I think this really helps...they each have their own 'safe place' to retreat to.

Good luck...

[SKL]

I was also 2 years older than my sister, and partly due to the differences in our personalities, we did get into it sometimes. In our case, it was usually no more than a slap on my part, followed by a volley of inneffective punches from her (she grew out of that before she was big enough to seriously hurt me). I don't recall any bloodshed.

My parents would generally punish (a) whoever hit first and, if both hit, (b) whoever was older. Punishment was fairly consistent, with the result that while we still got on each other's nerves, it never totally spiraled out of control. I might add that we slept in the same bed until I was 13. I always wished for my own room or bed, but truthfully, I don't know if it was a good or bad thing that we were forced to be so close. Today we are good friends. (But I am not sure we could live together!)

Sibling rivalry is perfectly normal and healthy, but I think that if it goes beyond minor fisticuffs, and if they aren't friendly/polite to each other "most of the time," that's not normal.

I think when we are very busy as parents, we sometimes let things go too far before we react. Ultimately things get beyond the point where we can respond effectively with age-appropriate discipline. With my daughters, I have recently decided that I need to be far more constent at disciplining them. Instead of being "patient and tolerant" until they go too far (and I blow up), I'm disciplining every small infraction. This is certainly no fun for me, and I've had to give up some things I really wanted to do because the girls needed to lose a privilege or take a time out. But I have noticed a big improvement (so far) in their effort to police themselves.

When it comes to sibling rivalry between my 2.5-year-olds, I try to strike a balance, because they need to learn how to make their own choices in relationships. The girls like to be dramatic and will accuse each other of battery when I know no harm was meant. Mostly I just remind them of the rules and tell them both to work on being better friends. If they are fighting over an object or privilege, I will take it away. But if I observe intentional violence, I discipline fairly harshly.

If I may make an observation, it seems your daughter might benefit from an exercise that helps her put in perspective the "things" she feels she is "protecting" from her younger brother. He wanted in her room - she felt that would be the end of the world. Maybe she would benefit from being shut out of her room for a day. The lesson is that people are more important than things. It's more important to protect Brother than to protect one's private domain.

At the same time, you want to make sure Sis knows you are hearing her concerns. Little Bro shouldn't be barging into her room. He should be taught (a) to knock and (b) to buzz off if Sis won't invite him in. Be clear about what nonviolent redress Sis is allowed to seek if Bro doesn't follow the rules. But bottom line, there is no excuse for hitting a younger sibling.

[crick]

I don't allow fighting either, just like I don't allow tattling and bickering.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

What consequences did they receive for that behavior? You might not be able to get them to respect each other but you can get them to treat each other nicer. Do they currently lose items or privileges if they put their hands on each other? Have you tried telling them for each fight they have they'll earn 30 more minutes with each other doing a chore together or whatever activity mom chooses? You might also try sitting them in a chair every time they fight and tell them "thank you for my reward. Every time you fight, I get a treat" and then eat some ice cream or whatever. Or read a magazine article in silence as your treat etc.

Does the nanny follow your same discipline methods?

First stop the physical behavior and then you can work on them actually liking each other a bit. (and by that I don't mean they'll never fight etc., just mean there will hopefully be more get along moments than the reverse)

[jennandsteve]

Great ideas! Mommy to Eli and Anglekisses, you guys always come through for me. We also have no tolerance for violence, but it STILL happens. I love the idea of trying to replay the conversation and the holding hands across from each other until they apologize in a nice tone. We get lots of apologies that are said in a way that only aggravates the problem. I am going to try both of those things.

I also think all of your points about property and rooms and space need to be worked on here. I guess I have tried to make them work together and have more "shared" spaces with toys and books belonging to both and in each room but it is prob time to allow them both their own space. Will work on that too. Maybe with Soph off to K that will help them appreciate each other.

I have tried to let them work on the relationship themsleves. I HATE tatteling and want them to be friends, buddies. My sibs and I felt it was us against the world. ; ) Not that it needed to be but we really protected each other at home and elsewhere. I loved it and I know they did. I just want my kids to feel that way too.

Truly, they are well supervised. We have an open plan and I can see into the bathroom between their rooms from the door of my room downstairs. And I hear every little remark. Some good some not so good.

[jennandsteve]

Crick, great ideas. They did both lose computer time and leapster time for the day. But your ideas do seem more related to the "crime".

[busterleroy]

Ah, the teeth brushing fights in the morning, We have been there. DS is 5.5, DD is 3.5.

Yes, I also ask them to run upstairs and brush their teeth after breakfast and I am often not in the room with them. When a fight happens - not often, but it does on occasion - it is usually over territory, like you described. I can't recall blood but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

I do triage - assess wounds, interview witnesses and hand out punishments. Neither think I am fair, both claim to be the victim and I tell them that families don't hit one another, they love one another.

If we are headed out to preschool, I strap them in their car seats while they glare at/ignore one another. A few insults are mumbled and I tell them to knock it off.

I usually try to find some soothing music to play while we drive and then talk loudly to myself about how happy I am that we are a family, then I tell myself funny stories about when DS was 3.5 and imagine wonderful things that DD will do when she is 5.5. I do this becasue I want to remind them both that my son was little once and that my daughter will grow up just like her brother did. This usually distracts them as well and then they both telling me what they will do when they are 'big'.

All is well once again.

Just wanted you to know that you are not alone! Great advice from the others, hang in there!