[kristibk]

We have been home now since the day before Thanksgiving. I know it hasn't been long but it has been getting progressively worse. Maria was in foster care for 2 years after being given up by her mother. I keep trying to remember that she just saw her in July for the final interview and that it must have been extremely painful for her. I keep trying to remember that. We can tell that Maria was exposed to TV all day from what she tells us and how she know every character and movie there is. She is very dramatic, very emotional and has become very defiant in the last week. I keep trying to be patient with her but I just don't know how to handle her. On one hand she seems very comfortable with us...can be very affectionate (sometimes goes overboard and is very clingy), goes into the fridge and has a healthy appetite, gets along good with my 13 yo son, has friends and loves school. She however REFUSES to be disciplined. We don't want her to eat in the living room so she gets mad. We tell her to be careful with her things (she plays very rough with everything and has already broken several toys) and then she proceeds to throw everything of hers into the hallway including clothes and bedding. It gets worse from here. We asked her to just turn her computer down a little and she took off running outside with no coat and boots and headed to a major road down our driveway. She ran from us but we eventually caught her. She is jealous (which I understand) when I kiss my husband and when I talk to my son for more than a minute. Language is fine because I speak some Spanish as well and other members in my family. We (obviously) tell her everyday how much we love her, how happy we are that she is here and that she is here with her family forever. I know this will take some time but I don't want to be on eggshells around her and she cannot rule the roost. We love playing games with her but she get mad and clears the board if she does not win...this is after she has already won 5 times in a row. Today, she stuck out her tongue and yelled at me with her fingers in her ears because she did not want to listen to me. I just want keep telling her how much I love her but if we don't do what she wants or if we tell her no she can just be so manipulative and gives us the "dark and stormy"...the pout with the look. Any advice? I would appreciate any experiences anyone has had. Like I said, I know it hasn't been that long but we just want to help her be a good happy kid.

[angelkisses0102]

Probably not what you want to hear...but sounds like a normal reaction to what she has experienced in her life recently.

You may want to post this in the special needs board as many people there have done older child adoptions and can give you some great advice on how to parent your DD...many BTDT moms and dads over there.

Has she been evaluated by an attachment therapist or international adoption clinic yet? That may be a good starting point.

Good luck.

[TheFoxx]

Most of what you've written is normal 6 year old behavior. Just a few suggestions for you...

We tell her to be careful with her things (she plays very rough with everything and has already broken several toys) and then she proceeds to throw everything of hers into the hallway including clothes and bedding. It gets worse from here

Let her know the next time she does this - you will KEEP everything that she throws out and she will have to earn it back by doing extra chores (if she throws her bedding out then she'll sleep on a bare mattress). My girlfriend adopted an older child and many times her daughter would do this. After she had to sleep on a bare mattress with no pillow and no blanket and no toys in the room, you'd best believe she didn't do it again.

We asked her to just turn her computer down a little and she took off running outside with no coat and boots and headed to a major road down our driveway. She ran from us but we eventually caught her

Time to get childproof handles on your doors so she can't run out. That's too dangerous to mess with.

We love playing games with her but she get mad and clears the board if she does not win...this is after she has already won 5 times in a row.

No more games until she can learn to enjoy the game for the game's sake. If she clears the board - she can no longer play. Period.

Today, she stuck out her tongue and yelled at me with her fingers in her ears because she did not want to listen to me.

She's not too young for a time out. Get yourself a copy of "1,2,3 Magic" It has a whole section that addresses older kids.

Finally, give your social worker who did your home study a call and ask for some feedback. That's what they are there for. They can open the door to resources in your community so that you can get some help.

Good luck!

[crick]

What type of routine do you have on a daily basis? I would imagine with Thanksgiving and all the holidays in December that you've maybe not had a real set routine? Lots of noise, people, gifts etc.? That's a lot of stimuli for kids in general, even more so for a child coming from her background and while grieving her losses, new country, parents, smells etc.

I think I would scale back things and get on a very structured routine for her. Lots of bonding time with you and dad, not so much involvement with other people, and focus on a few rules at a time.

Grief in children often looks like anger and defiant, so maybe give her some tools to do that with and let her know it's okay to be sad. She can't hurt anyone or throw tantrums but needs to learn how to safely get those feelings out. Try to do more time ins rather than time outs, so she isn't isolated when she's upset.

Hang in there..it's often a longer road than expected.

[kristibk]

We know this was a hard time of year to bring her home. Everyone that came to visit of course brought her gifts. We had a house full for the holidays and then boom...no company and no more gifts. She had 2 weeks off from school and my husband and son and I were home together for 2 weeks. We know we just couldn't keep her busy enough and we were counting down the days until school. School was great today and we will just keep our fingers crossed. The first time she threw out all of her things, we put them back after she had gone to bed. We felt that was very difficult for her because we knew she had already lost everything she ever had. she did do it again and we put it in another room where she could see it. She said she would be careful and she later got them back. The outward defiance is the hardest and I know it will just take time but when you are in the heat of the moment it is SO HARD!!!!!! I will definately post on older child forum and I think someone mentioned one other. Thank you all. KK

[saranbr]

I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff, but DS has been home nearly a year and a half (came home at 4 1/2) and while we still have major issues, a few things have gotten better. School is still a disaster, but home life has improved with a few techniques.

First-- simple, consistent routine with rules that do not change. It may do a number on your social life, but that will improve with time. Heck, there are two homes now that we can go to that I can let him out of my sight after 18 months of training. Don't feel bad if you have to explain to your friends that she will need to play where you can see her.

Second-- consequences that fit the behavior, they seem to be the only thing that makes it past the brainstem to the cortex. This can be really hard on the spot but a couple examples: you pee all over yourself and the toilet you get to clean it all up and then get a cool wipe down in the tub. You throw/break things, you lose them until you can play right. You swear or otherwise mis-use your mouth and you get a teaspoon of vinegar in there, "so it can make better choices next time".

Third-- stay calm and unemotional when dealing with the badness. At least in DS's case he gets something major out of seeing me angry and knows exactly how to get me there if I'm not on CONSTANT guard. It's exhausting.

Finally, don't feel bad if she can't do everything other kids her age do. While I let DD get a cup of water or run around with the other kids after church, DS always has to be in my sight there (unless in a class setting) b/c "stuff" happens when the leash is let out. Until he can earn the privilege of "normal" treatment for his age, he gets the treatment that he has earned. I have to facilitate an environment where he can be successful and he just cannot do certain things at this time and have any chance of success with the small things.

You aren't parenting like your friends and most of them will never understand. Find a good therapist for her for your support as much as hers and try to hook up with some other parents dealing with similar issues. Trust me, you'll be less likely to constantly feel like, just maybe, YOU are the crazy one . Maybe ours were sibs .

[JoshGuat]

Sounds like you are dealing with attachment issues. Here is a web site that you can reference A4everFamily.org - HOME

Also, you may want to look into seeing an adoption attachment therapist, one who specializes in adoption trauma. Children who are adopted express their feelings, and fear in many different ways. Some anger, some charming, etc. It is not an over night process to resolve. I am in a adoption therapy group and many of the things that you wrote about are the very things that the parents who have adopted are going through, or have gone through. Please know that you are doing everything that you can. Some children can have EVERYTHING taken away from them, in their room, toys, etc you name it and they still will not listen to the parent. This is due to their trauma. There are skills that can be worked on with such a child, but it is a process. I am not an expert, by no means, I have heard many of the parents at the group share their stories in the group. There is hope. Try contacting your agency to see who they recommend form post adoption attachment issues.

[Lorraine123]

Sounds like attachment disorder to me. I would look into attachment therapy. Be sure the therapist is a true attachment therapist, otherwise the therapy will be a waste of time.

[sak9645]

You've been given some wonderful advice.

One thing you ought to consider, as well, is whether there is any history of maternal alcohol use during pregnancy.

I know that the "conventional wisdom" is that Guatemalan women don't drink. Unfortunately, there are exceptions, and kids HAVE come home from Guatemala with fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASD).

The reason that I bring this up is your image of your daughter running towards a major road. At six, this sort of totally impulsive behavior isn't all that common in healthy kids. It is extremely common in alcohol-exposed kids, who often have poor impulse control and little understanding of cause and effect. I, myself, have watched an Eastern European child of about 7, who had FASD, do exactly the same thing.

If there is any possibility of FASD, or if you aren't sure, you really should contact an expert for advice. There are a couple of good FASD programs in the U.S. that can diagnose the problem and recommend strategies for dealing with the alcohol exposed child.

Sharon

[brink]

Just wanted to encourage you in your journey. It sounds like you are doing a great job in both being sensitive to her grieving and all the changes she has endured, and also trying to hold her accountable and teach her what is acceptable. While we haven't had quite as many defiant behaviors, we've gone through some difficulties with both our last two daughters. We have eight kids, the last five adopted, the last four from Guatemala. They were all in the same children's home and received excellent love and care. Our sons each came home at 4yrs and settled in without any struggles. Our girls came home at 10 1/2yrs and 11 yrs. The first forged the way for the second. They are different personalities and had different reactions to all the changes, but it was me, the new mom who took most of the brunt of their anger. The episodes have been few and far between with both, but none the less frustrating and discouraging. I know the feeling of just wanting them so badly to understand how much we love them and will stick by them, no matter how rude they got. I can't say what works. I probably didn't handle things right many times, either. I lost my temper sometimes after one too many rude attitudes. We hollered at each other in our anger at times. And the few times they tried to be aggressive towards me, I held them tight until they knew who was going to be in charge. In some odd way it seemed to reassure both of them that I was indeed in charge, would not let them do anything that would jeapordize their safety, mine, or the security of our family. I don't know if I handled those times right, probably not. But after a few of these episodes with each of them (after the honeymoon was over), we would talk about how much I loved them and was going to be there for them, no matter what they did, etc. And again, the odd thing is, those times truly seemed to bond our hearts more deeply. After those difficult times, they seemed to be much happier, maybe reassured and feeling safe. I'm encouraged that you already have parenting experience with your son. You know what works, what's important for a child. Adoption and all its issues does add more to the mix, but I still believe that kids want to know that you will do all you can to keep them safe, will love them no matter what, and all those things that are so important for all children to know deep in their hearts. I don't know much Spanish, but somehow even early on we were able to communicate about some pretty important emotional issues. We talked about their sadness, what they left behind, birth mothers, old friends and caretakers, letting them know I understood how hard all of it was for them also seemed to help. Our 14yr old has been home nearly 4yrs. Our 12yr old has been home a little over a year. It seemed to take them both a good year to really sort things through and feel totally part of our family, showing love and concern for the rest of us. It's hard to think of living out a year of what you are going through, a year of total selfishness, but it does get better and better.

I wouldn't jump to label it as attachment disorder by any means, but merely the process of attaching. It's understandable she is angry, hurt, still sorting it all out in her own heart. Keep talking about it with her, letting her tell you as much as she will about her sadness or anger, while also continuing what you are doing by not allowing her to rule the roost. Our newest daughter told me in anger and tears one day, "You all the time tell me what to do!" God gave me the words, as I gave her a surprised look and said, "Oh! Didn't they tell you in Guatemala? That's what moms do! They tell their kids what to do to keep them safe and teach them to do what is right." She returned my surprised look, as if she was just now putting it all together. I was at a point in the journey of true frustration and anger at her for her rudeness in particular to me, very discouraged that she was sometimes shutting me out. I started to cry a bit myself. When she saw my tears, she reached over and gave me a hug and said, "I love you, Mom." Wow! That was the beginning of our break through. I guess what I'm saying is that while you can show her that you understand her fears and pain, don't forget to be honest with her about some of your own. Kids are happiest when they learn to think of others. It's understandable that they can't do too much of that when they're dealing with so much themselves, but the goal is to get them to that point of stepping outside themselves to care about others. Hang in there. I think you've got the right balance. Don't let her win, while still reminding yourself about all she is going through.

I would also hesitate to jump to the FASD conclusion very quickly, because anger can cause a lot of irrational behavior that doesn't mean alcohol exposure. If time and firmness and lots and lots of talk and love doesn't start to bring some improvements, then definitely seek out professional help. It just sounds like you have a lot of wisdom about children and committment to her and to helping her become her best. But if things keep amping up and you just don't see those little glimmers of hope and improvement or you are just too discouraged, seek help for your family. You are very early in your journey, so go easy on yourself, too. It's not what we hoped for when our kids struggle and turn our homes upside down for a time, but things get better and better. It sounds like you have a beautiful, strong daughter. If she learns to channel that strength, she is going to be one amazing young lady you can be so proud of! (I know, you are already proud of her for the strength she has had to have to survive the changes already.) Some of the things my kids do that drive me crazy are also the strengths that I know will help protect them from people who aren't out for their best interests. Our daughters are doing so well and are so strong for what they have learned to work through. So though they are behind in some things, they are way ahead of the rest in terms of learning to cope with life's disappointments and change.

Oh yes, and I certainly know that dark and stormy pouting face! We've talked much about those glaring eyes. Wow, never had a child who could look so angry and cold before our newest daughter. She has been a master of that look, saved mostly for me. She has a million dollar smile, but a look that could drop a charging rhino when she wants to use it. It's at the point now where we both know she is turning it on for my benefit, and she often starts to smile if I've handled it right and don't let it get to me. It's kind of our own little joke that we both know she's only trying to use it to "amp me up". Not this time, Girlie! I've had to ask her sometimes, "Do you really want to go there?" She knows I'm committed enough to her and to what's right for our family to go through another "battle" if she wants to. She thinks about it for what I think is too long, and then decides it's not worth it. Changed attitude. Yes!

[bhouston]

I do not agree that this is typical 6 yr old behavior...Your little girl has not been home very long I have an almost 6 yr old that has been home since 9.5 months....It does seem like people are sensitive to the whole term *attachment disorder* but really these children no matter what the age have had their whole lives disrupted...and they change countries and food and everything is different for them...they are with total strangers..who keep telling them how much they love them....can you imagine the fear....and confusion...

There are so many resources and things that can be done...Having a child who has struggled with attachment and different issues...*normal* discipline does not seem to work with these issues....We have two bio sons now in college and we had to throw out all the ways we disciplined them...when we got our daughter...She sounds like she might be dealing with some Opposional Defiance issues...but it is VERY important to find a TRUE attachment therapists...they are far and inbetween....but Nancy Thomas has some listed on her site...she is an amazing resource...and she has camps that I would highly recommend attending....to get the skills needed....

You need help and I would not hesitate to bring some on board....RAD can be diagnosed and can be healed...or at least managed....but you need to find out if your daughter is suffering from this....so treatment can begin...

I have been around this and worked thru it for many yrs now with our daughter...I just can not emphasize enough...how important it is to get help ASAP...every minute counts...

I was fortunate enough to find the attach China board because when I brought my daughter home no one was talking about attachment issues on Guatemala boards and I felt all alone although now that I have been down this road I see *issues* with other families but they do not see them as attachment issues...and some children do not show them until later...

Also know that you are NOT alone.....there are many of us out here...going thru the different stages of healing with our children...There is HELP!!!!

jun1488@ aol.com I am more than happy to share some resources with you or just listen...Our daughters are close to the same age and although mine has been home for awhile...we have walked down many paths to get to where we are today...I am available to help if you need it.....

[bhouston]

I just wanted to add....that time outs are never encouraged with children dealing with these issues...time ins..where the child sits by you is much more productive....you dont not want the child shamed and put away ....in another room...isolated...that only makes the situaion worse....

I would also eliminate t.v. and video games for awhile...I know this will ruffle feathers with some but...we did this with our daughter....for quite awhile...and now she only watches very limited t.v......T.V. and video games is very harmful in the bonding process...it allows the brain to totally tune out other things going on....it makes it easier to not bond...and connect...This helped our daughter so much....

Also your daughter might not be 6 emotionally...but much younger....so you might have to start younger...It is VERY important to never let this child see anger in your eyes but only love...this was hard for me ...especially when I had gone into the bathroom and my daughter had taken my brand new conditioner that was quite expensive and sprayed it over all the mirrors...til it was empty....she was about 4...so I just said to her in a loving way....Thank you Brooklyn for letting me know you are not strong enough to come into the bathroom without asking first ....that is good to know....That is good to know...No problem...you need to ask mommy each time before you come in the bathroom and then I would sit outside and wait for her to come out....I told her I was a good mommy and I wanted to keep her safe but until she was strong enough I would need to know when she was in the bathroom...I also told her it was okay to take as long as she needed to get strong enough....So...that went on for several months and one day...I told her You know I have noticed you are getting strong in so many areas that I think you can go into the bathroom without asking now...she was so proud of herself and we have not had another incident in the bathroom since....and we use to have them all the time...where she would pour out things like fingernail polish in the sink...just too many things to go into but it was a challenge not to get upset...Also one more thing we did and do if Brooklyn starts showing signs of getting out of control....We take all her choices away...not as a punishment but we make her world VERY Small.....she rarely orders off the menu when we go out to dinner...It became a power struggle...so we took that issue away....never in a mean way...it actually helps these kiddos to have less choices and to be in less control....it helps them heal ....

Beth in Idaho

[brink]

Our daughter also met her birth mother during the process. Both of them were still in favor of the adoption (they hadn't seen each other since our daughter was 18mo old), and it was a positive experience for our daughter. We talk now and then about her birth mother, the situation, why she felt she needed to place her, etc. I let her know it's ok to have all the feelings she has about her own history and her adoption, to love and be interested in her birth mother and her siblings in Guatemala. She likes to ask questions and talk about all of this and about friends at the orphanage, Guatemala, etc. I treasure anything she tells me about that part of her life. I hope you and your daughter have enough common language to talk about some of those things that must surely be going through her mind and heart. We haven't done this, but maybe your daughter would enjoy writing or drawing about some of those things, in which case, you might gain some insight and talking points, plus a shared activity. It could be your special project to do together and time to talk. Maybe she has things she wishes she could tell her birth or foster mother. That reminds me to ask if our daughter would like to write her birth mother a letter or draw her some pictures.

It sounds like your daughter is happy with your family and with school, but just trying to get her way, not have to be disciplined, plus all the other confusing issues running through her thoughts. The fact that she feels safe enough to be "naughty" seems like a good thing, hard as that is to live with! Even the fact that she gets jealous about who you give attention to seems to me to indicate that she is not a child who can't bond. She may also just be rebelling against having more rules than she did with her foster family, different rules. She'll get used to that and learn the ways of your family in short order, if you continue to be firm about your own rules. Natural consequences should help, too. If you take food in the living room, sorry, no more food tonight, you have to wait for breakfast, or whatever the situation. Sounds like she didn't have issues with food or deprivation.

I wouldnt' claim to know a lot about attachment disorder, but it seems that she is very much into the business of wanting your attention and the security of knowing that you will do everything you can to keep her safe. I think those are all very good signs in your favor. Attaching takes time, as you recognize. It doesn't always indicate there is a "disorder" or that they won't be able to bond, just because they are struggling with some of the process. Sometimes it is the sad case, but if your daughter was attached to her foster family, you know she can attach. Our kids definitely go through much trauma, and kids react in a variety of ways to that. They must surely feel that they have lost any and all control over their world. It's not surprising that, when faced with new adults in their world, they try to see how much control they are going to be able to exert over them.

The wonderful thing about adopting older kids (in spite of the struggles), is once you have enough language in common, they can and will hopefully share more of their thoughts and emotions and memories with you. They can also understand more difficult concepts, so you can talk with them about why they are angry or sad or wanting attention. I encourage my daughter that it's ok to feel all the things she is feeling. It's just not ok to take it out on other people. I try to draw attention to the things I am doing to love and care for her, the consistency she has with me. Every good and happy moment you have with your daughter, she can bank in her little love tank, can remind herself of those things when she might begin to doubt that this is for real and for good. It just takes time to make a history together, and if they're struggling and there are issues, it takes longer to have enough good times to outweigh the hard times.

Try to ignore the things she is doing to get a rise out of you (not easy, I know), find fun things she likes to do and then spend time together doing them (not always easy either, when you feel you just need some "normal" with no drama), and watch for those glimmers of hope. I think it's really important that you and your DH are in agreement and that she sees that so she won't try to play you against each other. Draw her attention to the positives you see coming about in your relationship, too. I told my daughter not long ago that I noticed she was being nicer, not so pouty and not so many glares lately. About a week later, she came to me and said, "I am being nicer." It was good that she was seeing it herself and pointing it out to me, which was also acknowledging that she hadn't been so nice before. So, you mean it wasn't all just my imagination??? We talked about how much better it feels for both of us to be getting along better, etc. She agrees.

Our oldest daughter is a guidance counselor in a mostly hispanic school. Lots of poverty and many struggles in her kids' lives. Since they're also sometimes dealing with language differences, she uses a lot of "visuals" to help her kids understand how their own behaviors effect others, etc. She encouraged me to use some of those stories or actual illustrations to help our girls understand better. I do think our kids are behind in knowing how their actions affect how others feel about them. I think most of their lives were spent seeking attention and love in competition to the other kids at the orphanage. It's not surprising that they haven't spent much time thinking about how to have good relationships with other people. All those small conversations we had with our bios from the time they were even infants, we haven't had the privelege of having with these last two. Sometimes all they have yet to learn and catch up on can overwhelm me. But we will just keep plugging away, doing as much as we can to help them grow.

I hope and pray things will improve daily, and that you will post again and let us know how things are going.

[lucyjoy]

I think it's too early to know if she has attachment disorder, however, she has just had a significant attachment break-first from mom, then from fmom. She sounds very angry and she has good reason to be(and grief does look like anger in children).

I'd find a good attachment therapist to evaluate and help you help your child deal with her grief and facilitate bonding.

What does she do after she tears up her room or throws a game? Does she cry? feel sorry for herself? feel bad about what she did? Can you tell?

If it were me, I'd give her permissions to be mad, though I'd do so in my arms. She needs to know that you are okay with her missing mom and fmom and that you will hold her in her hurt and her pain. She has no reason to believe you when you say you won't leave her. Her first mama did and her fostermom did and in her mind, it's only a matter of time for you to go. How scary that must be for her.

Instead of sending her to timeout or to her room when she acts up, tell her you see she is having a hard time and must be feeling pretty bad. Keep her where you are. If she's thrown a game, she will need to pick it up. If she's trashed her room, she needs to clean it.

I have in the past thrown things out when kids throw them at me but in this case, her throwing things out may be about her shame, fear and anger at the people in her life that have left her. Again, I think I'd pull her in a rocking chair and talk to her about her pain(she may not talk but you can). Then she cleans up the mess.

Routine is important as many people have said as she has no control over her life and needs the routine to feel safe. Hopefully, things will improve.

[JoshGuat]

Originally Posted by bhouston

I do not agree that this is typical 6 yr old behavior...

they are with total strangers..who keep telling them how much they love them....can you imagine the fear....and confusion...

There are so many resources and things that can be done...
*normal* discipline does not seem to work with these issues....

I just wanted to say that I agree with bhouston and there are many things that she wrote that mimic the things that people have experienced in international adoption. I have heard over and over again from parents who have experienced attachment issues, that the "normal" way that home grown bio children problems are resolved do not work. This is an entirely different way of parenting.

Also, time IN's are the answer, not time outs. I great book to read is "Parenting Your Internationally Adopted Child (From Your First Hours Together Through the Teen Years)" By Patty Cogen, MA. Ed.D She talks about Time In's in her book and Many other skills that you can use. It is an excellent resource.