[KarynB]

[quote=SKL]
3) I don't personally think of Obama as black, and even less as a black American. His wife, maybe, but not him. He is half white and was not raised as an African-American at all. I think of him as a white guy with brown skin.
QUOTE]

Ok, I have been reading this discussion with interest (as a student of international politics) but without comment because as a Canadian I don't feel like you guys want my opinion on your presidential candidates (go Obama - haha), but SKL I can't BELIEVE you just said this!!!!! You seriously need to go check out the transracial adoption boards and learn about what it means to be biracial. Ok, that was harshly said, but seriously - a white guy with brown skin???? Um, just so you know, that's a really insulting thing to say and most biracial people I know wouldn't appreciate that. I'm not going to get into a tirad about why it's so insulting, but as a mom to two minority girls you may want to look into it.

Wonk - totally agree with your post. Well said.

Saya - as usual, you are a genius! Thanks for sharing, I always learn a ton from your posts....

[BosMom]

I'm sorry... Hypocrisy? A 44 year old "PRO-Life" pregnant politician has her unborn baby 'checked' for Downs. Why? Because she wanted the CHOICE.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by erinelway

I would like to point out that you have also made inflammatory comments about Muslims and are desperately trying to backpedal now. You owe this board an apology for your comments.

I did not make inflammatory comments about Muslims. I may have more knowledge of and respect for Islam than anyone on this board. I stated that maybe Obama doesn't consider it offensive for his (and others') children to hear something amounting "Down With America" [I'm not allowed to quote it as it was spoken] because he may have heard people similarly disparage the USA while a child living in a Muslim country. Each and every one of my friends from predominantly Muslim areas will tell you that such things are said in front of children in their home countries. For that matter, a lot of ugly things are said about Muslims here in the US. What I said is not one of them.

If my comment was disparaging, it was directed at Obama the man, who, by supporting a man who would say such a thing, shows that he doesn't have a well-developed sense of US patriotism. I don't expect foreign schools to teach US patriotism, but I expect US presidential candidates to exhibit it.

More to the point of his parenting, he supposedly worked tirelessly for that church and was close enough to the pastor to write a book about him. He had to know what the children were hearing on a weekly basis. And he was in a position to speak out about it. That kind of talk is bad for any and every child, now and in that child's future. That kind of talk is not going to inspire kids to grow into successful and happy adults. That is something that a parent should complain about and if nothing is done, the parent should terminate the family's church membership. All Obama can come up with is to say he never heard that kind of talk, and I just don't believe it.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by BosMom

I'm sorry... Hypocrisy? A 44 year old "PRO-Life" pregnant politician has her unborn baby 'checked' for Downs. Why? Because she wanted the CHOICE.

Actually, she wanted to know if her child had any issues that she needed to prepare for. I read that she said it really helped to have several months to prepare for his coming into the world with special needs.

You are free to believe or disbelieve what she said.

[Mindybeth6]

Originally Posted by BosMom

I'm sorry... Hypocrisy? A 44 year old "PRO-Life" pregnant politician has her unborn baby 'checked' for Downs. Why? Because she wanted the CHOICE.

Are you serious? Are you saying that she went through with the tests to find out because she was undecided if she would abort the baby? Please tell me you aren't really saying that. Most people DO go ahead with the tests so that they can best prepare for the arrival of a baby with special needs. I am someone who works with Downs kids and the thought of an abortion primarily because they were Downs makes me a little ill.

There is NOTHING out of character with her finding out the baby had Downs beforehand.

[angieandstever]

Originally Posted by BosMom

I'm sorry... Hypocrisy? A 44 year old "PRO-Life" pregnant politician has her unborn baby 'checked' for Downs. Why? Because she wanted the CHOICE.

I am pretty much keeping out of this discussion because it is going down the drain quickly. I am not sure who I am voting for at this point and am still gathering information to decide. HOWEVER I will say Bosmom you are completely wrong for this quote. A lot of people are tested to be prepared. If she was checking to have a CHOICE, then why didn't she terminate? You are incorrect with this comment.

Edited to Add: Sorry Mindy! I second what she said. We must have been responding at the same time

[SKL]

[quote=KarynB]

Originally Posted by SKL

3) I don't personally think of Obama as black, and even less as a black American. His wife, maybe, but not him. He is half white and was not raised as an African-American at all. I think of him as a white guy with brown skin.
QUOTE]

Ok, I have been reading this discussion with interest (as a student of international politics) but without comment because as a Canadian I don't feel like you guys want my opinion on your presidential candidates (go Obama - haha), but SKL I can't BELIEVE you just said this!!!!! You seriously need to go check out the transracial adoption boards and learn about what it means to be biracial. Ok, that was harshly said, but seriously - a white guy with brown skin???? Um, just so you know, that's a really insulting thing to say and most biracial people I know wouldn't appreciate that. I'm not going to get into a tirad about why it's so insulting, but as a mom to two minority girls you may want to look into it.

Wonk - totally agree with your post. Well said.

Saya - as usual, you are a genius! Thanks for sharing, I always learn a ton from your posts....

Why isn't it offensive to whites to not call him white? If he had his mom's complexion, would he be considered white?

My friends from India who are darker than Obama get insulted when they are not referred to as Caucasion.

I honestly don't understand this. However, as a light-skinned Caucasion who is often referred to as "white," I see him as having more in common with me than with the black people he worked with on the south side of Chicago. Certainly others are free to see it however they see it. Wow, this is probably the first time I've been slammed for not calling someone "black."

[Wonk]

SKL wrote:

A comment from me that someone attended school in a Muslim country should not be read as a slam on that person (for that reason) nor on Islam. However, it cannot be denied that in Muslim countries, young people are likely to hear harsh criticisms of the USA.

So, let me ask the simple question: Why bring it up? Why even care that he went to a Muslim school from age 6 - 8 other than to make some other implication? Say that implication out loud because if you don't, I assume that you are silently implying we should care because children who go to Muslim schools are secretly terrorists and we must fear them also because they are black.

If it is that children from Muslim schools may hear harsh things about the United States, I hate to tell you but you can come to my kitchen table and hear harsh things about the United States. My daughter and I spent Labor Day protesting the war and I took plenty of pictures so she can show them off when she is older. So is it just that some child may hear something harsh or is it something else, something that you are implying but not coming out and saying? Why care? Say it out loud so we understand.

ToulouG

And Obama went to school in Indonesia from the time he was 6 to 10 years old---very impressionable years. And yes, it has been shown from school records published by the Associated Press that he is listed as Muslim. He studied Mengaji--learning to recite the Quran. This class was not for children from moderate Muslim families. I could go on and on, but those of you who love him can not see past your rose colored glasses. But wait....that is what you say about "us".

Again, why should I care that he went to a Muslim school other than to imply that Muslim = terrorist or Muslim = scary black man or something of that ilk? Should I care if McCain went to Catholic school? There are lots of kids who go to Catholic school and read all sorts of Catholic things written by the Pope. Why should I care if it isn't the implication that he might be an Islamic terrorist?

And this is about race. Obama knows he is a black man and a whole bunch of us have noticed too. And it is about having children of color and what kind of world we make for them.

[KarynB]

Hate to be the one to tell you this, SKL, but there is a lot of "Down with America" happening the world over, not just in Muslim countries. In fact, in my Poli Sci classes many US students have trouble because there is so much anti-American sentiment right now. I am not saying this is right, it is just what is happening at this time due to some choices that have been made by a President that is not well-revered around the world. So should someone who is educated in Canada not be allowed to run for President too?

[KarynB]

YAY Wonk - beautifully said!

[SKL]

Originally Posted by Wonk

And this is about race. Obama knows he is a black man and a whole bunch of us have noticed too. And it is about having children of color and what kind of world we make for them.

This is an example of the Obama camp taking the easy way out as far as facing the hard questions. These are the same people who think that if I vote or McCain-Palin it's for no reason other than that Palin is a woman.

If it was Condoleeza Rice vs. Hillary Clinton, I would vote for Condoleeza Rice. Because I am an unapologetic conservative! It has nothing to do with color.

[erinelway]

I did not make inflammatory comments about Muslims.

Yes, you did. You suggested that because Obama attended elementary school in Indonesia that he is not patriotic. You further suggested that Muslims are universally raised to hate America. If you don't find that inflammatory, I'm not really sure what to make of this to be quite honest.

I may have more knowledge of and respect for Islam than anyone on this board.

From your comments, I highly, highly doubt this.

I stated that maybe Obama doesn't consider it offensive for his (and others') children to hear something amounting "Down With America" [I'm not allowed to quote it as it was spoken] because he may have heard people similarly disparage the USA while a child living in a Muslim country. Each and every one of my friends from predominantly Muslim areas will tell you that such things are said in front of children in their home countries. For that matter, a lot of ugly things are said about Muslims here in the US. What I said is not one of them.

A lot of ugly things have indeed been said about Muslims in this country, and some of those have been said by you.

If my comment was disparaging, it was directed at Obama the man, who, by supporting a man who would say such a thing, shows that he doesn't have a well-developed sense of US patriotism. I don't expect foreign schools to teach US patriotism, but I expect US presidential candidates to exhibit it.

Oh dear. Obama was not there for the sermon in question. Palin, on the other hand, apparently cheerfully sat through a sermon talking about how Jews were being killed because of God's judgment on them for being nonbelievers. That is a fact. Now, should be extrapolate from that that Palin is an anti-semite? No, I do not think we should. After all, SHE didn't make the comments. And "patriotism" does not mean you wear a lapel flag pin everywhere. It means you love your country and put it first. And if you think there is ANYONE going through the torture of running for President who does not love their country, you are seriously delusional.

And he was in a position to speak out about it. That kind of talk is bad for any and every child, now and in that child's future. That kind of talk is not going to inspire kids to grow into successful and happy adults. That is something that a parent should complain about and if nothing is done, the parent should terminate the family's church membership. All Obama can come up with is to say he never heard that kind of talk, and I just don't believe it.

Well, that's okay, you don't have to believe it. But please, don't try to represent this as fact. It's not. It's just your opinion. Try to remember that, because I do believe that a lot of people would think that exposing their children to different ideas would actually be an ideal upbringing. It helps them to not grow up to be close-minded and ignorant.

Lastly, I am gravely concerned that you don't understand why calling an African American a "white guy with brown skin" might be offensive. This is actually STAGGERING.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by erinelway

Yes, you did. You suggested that because Obama attended elementary school in Indonesia that he is not patriotic. You further suggested that Muslims are universally raised to hate America.

I am only responding to this accusation in case someone out there might actually believe you are telling the truth.

Several things I have said have been twisted to the point of being unrecognizable on this thread, and now you have invented something completely from scratch.

We can see you don't agree and we can see you think I am a Muslim-hater. Fine. Don't invent quotes and post them here as if I said them.

[jandc]

As for religion playing a part in elections, I think that for a lot of people it does. I was talking about this last night with a friend and we talked about it. How would we feel if a person of X religion was running for office. We were both not sure how we would feel. Does it play a part in my choices? I will not lie, yes, it does. And it likely always will. But that's just ME and how I feel and I am entitled to feel that way. That is not to say I would NOT vote for a person of a different religion, I am just saying that it plays a role in what I look at in a candidate. I do not want a president with a religious agenda, I was a president who is qualified, but I still want to know that the person who oversees my country believes in the same core values that I do. That is important to me.

Mindybeth, you and I differ so drastically politically, but I really appreciate the fact you can say this the way you did.

SKL, erinelway is not twisting your words. They are all over this post AND the one that got closed. You really should think about stepping away from the computer and coming back and reading what you have written. You crossed the line so many times one post got shut down and this one had treaded the line. Much of what you have written has been inflammatory.

[ToulouG]

QUOTE:It also is code for him being black. It isn't OK any more to say out loud that he is black so you should be afraid of him. So you say that he might secretly be "Muslim" which is code for black. At minimum, being "Muslim" must mean that he is some kind of freak because real, decent people are Christians and not Muslims.

Uhhh, what? Who said anything about him being black? Or even being a Muslim TODAY....I said that in the begining he tried to hide this part of his life until it was uncovered. Then he admitted it. My point is that he does not tell the truth! I'm afraid of him because of his politics or lack thereof. I could care less what color he is. For that matter, do you even know what color I am...or my husband? Nope. You don't.

And as far as Palin's religion, she has proven that her faith does not get mixed up with her public service. The bias is so evident here and especially in the media. Obama is their "love child". Example....NBC put Democratic pundits Keith Olberman and Chris Matthews on the election coverage. They were so biased that the coverage of the GOP convention was a total embarrassment to NBC. They have since removed them as election news anchors and made numerous appologies. US magazine recently had Palin on the cover with headlines insinuating lies and deciet. When contacted and asked about those "lies" they had to admit there were none and issue an apology. Democrats and the media are grasping for anything. Too bad most people believe anything they read and fall prey to the excitement created by the media. Some people I know are actually voting for Obama because x celebrity endorses him. That is just pitiful. The bias is there and the apologies are starting to flow.