[Mommy24]

This thread is re-opened for respectful participation.

Thanks!

[Tazer]

Originally Posted by Mommy24

This thread is re-opened for respectful participation.

Thanks!

Hi Moderator...I like your style! I actually left the forum minutes after I posted here last night, not due to anything I read but this >> << occurred then this >> << rang and by the time I was done I was tired. I was shocked to find it closed but understood why since it was becoming ugh kinda this >> << IMO. I love the fact that you closed it, >>> <<<, reviewed it, >>> <<< then reopened it >> << again. I also love the fact that even though we have opinions and views that vary we can and did remain respectful; we're >>> <<< here. Tracy

[Saya]

Originally Posted by ToulouG

I wonder why so many people are talking about Palin and her 17 year old daughter and not Obama and his relationship with an unrepentent terrorist......

I too am an informed and educated voter. And what I have learned about Obama just plain bothers me. People that love him are completely obsessed with him and what he portrays himself to be. The negative is just explained away by speech writers and swept under the carpet while anything and everything McCain/Palin is just the worst!!! Now that is hypocritical.


And Obama went to school in Indonesia from the time he was 6 to 10 years old---very impressionable years. And yes, it has been shown from school records published by the Associated Press that he is listed as Muslim. He studied Mengaji--learning to recite the Quran. This class was not for children from moderate Muslim families. I could go on and on, but those of you who love him can not see past your rose colored glasses. But wait....that is what you say about "us".

I was going to vote for Hillary.....but there is no way I will vote Democrat now or for a man like Obama.

So, there are a lot of things in this message I'm not going to comment on. But I will say that I lived in Indonesia as an adult, for 2 years. I learned about both Indonesian culture and about Islam. I fasted for Ramadan with my friends and neighbors. I learned a lot about different people's viewpoints, including some that were not always positive about America (and others that were). It was an amazing experience. Does that make me a Muslim? I also know other Americans who lived there both as adults and as children. Some of those who lived there as children went to Indonesian schools and learned a lot about Islam at very formative times. Does that make them Muslim? No, none of them are Muslim today. They do however have a lot of understanding and respect for different cultures and different ways of life because of their early experiences.

(And even if any of them had converted, why should it matter? My Islamic friends in Indonesia were no different then you or me. We went to the movies. We went out to dinner together and talked and gossiped. We went out dancing at the local disco. Heck, we talked about boys!)

I have never heard about Obama being listed as a Muslim on some school record so I don't know whether it's true or not, but let me say this. Under "Pancasila" - Indonesia's national philosophy - everyone must be listed as having a religion. The five state sanctioned religions are Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Protestantism and Catholicism. One of these must be on basically every government form you fill out. Islam, which is the religion of the majority of Indonesians, is like the "default" category. I.e. if someone is filling out a government form for you in Indonesia and your last name is "Obama" they are probably just going to write "Muslim" on the form without a second thought. It really doesn't mean anything within the Indonesian cultural context at the time.

I'd like to add - yes Indonesia has its radicals, like every country does, but in general the Islam practiced there is VERY different then the Islam practiced in the Middle East. I'd recommend the books by Trinidadian scholar and Nobel prize winner V.S. Naipaul for more on Islam on the Asian continent, especially Among the Believers and Beyond Belief.

[Stormster]

Originally Posted by Tazer

Hi Moderator...I like your style! I actually left the forum minutes after I posted here last night, not due to anything I read but this >> << occurred then this >> << rang and by the time I was done I was tired. I was shocked to find it closed but understood why since it was becoming ugh kinda this >> << IMO. I love the fact that you closed it, >>> <<<, reviewed it, >>> <<< then reopened it >> << again. I also love the fact that even though we have opinions and views that vary we can and did remain respectful; we're >>> <<< here. Tracy

Tracy, how come you never use the Gnome? Can't you work him in?

[michelemk]

To me the question is this...WHY does it seem to some like the fact that Sarah Palin (a mother) running for VP is so unbelievable to so many people, while Barack Obama (a father) running for President is considered to be no big thing?

I have heard so many people (on this forum and in my personal life) question Sarah Palin and her commitment to her children because she is running for VP. These same people don't have any of the same concerns about Obama. Why is this?

Do we hold a different standard for mothers? Is this simply because Palin's youngest is only 5 months AND is special needs?

Does anyone besides me think it is just crazy when people are asking about who will care for Sarah Palin's children while she is VP? I don't see people asking who will care for Obama's children. Each candidate has a spouse. It is assumed by many that Michelle Obama will be the primary caregiver for the Obama girls...why can't Todd Palin also be assumed to be the primary caregiver?

Double Standards.

Michele

[Stormster]

Originally Posted by Saya

They do however have a lot of understanding and respect for different cultures and different ways of life because of their early experiences.
[/i]

The amazing thing to me is that there are Americans who do not think this is a vitally important quality in their leaders.

The USA is not the center of the Universe. There are many important things we can learn from other cultures and their histories. We need to start being inclusive or we're going to get left behind.

[angelkisses0102]

You know one aspect which hasn't been talked about is this...not only could Mr Obama be president...his wife would then be the first lady and doesn't she have quite a few responsibilities in that role? So aren't they actually putting their children in a worse parental situation since they will both have heavy responsibilites? Who will care for their children while they are overseas? Or at different ends of this country? Or at the many event hosted by them?

I am not certain what the duties of the VP's spouse is...but I would guess they are not as vast as those of the first lady.

Honestly I hate this whole discussion because it shouldn't matter! UGH!

[ToulouG]

Originally Posted by Saya

So, there are a lot of things in this message I'm not going to comment on. But I will say that I lived in Indonesia as an adult, for 2 years. I learned about both Indonesian culture and about Islam. I fasted for Ramadan with my friends and neighbors. I learned a lot about different people's viewpoints, including some that were not always positive about America (and others that were). It was an amazing experience. Does that make me a Muslim? I also know other Americans who lived there both as adults and as children. Some of those who lived there as children went to Indonesian schools and learned a lot about Islam at very formative times. Does that make them Muslim? No, none of them are Muslim today. They do however have a lot of understanding and respect for different cultures and different ways of life because of their early experiences.

(And even if any of them had converted, why should it matter? My Islamic friends in Indonesia were no different then you or me. We went to the movies. We went out to dinner together and talked and gossiped. We went out dancing at the local disco. Heck, we talked about boys!)

I have never heard about Obama being listed as a Muslim on some school record so I don't know whether it's true or not, but let me say this. Under "Pancasila" - Indonesia's national philosophy - everyone must be listed as having a religion. The five state sanctioned religions are Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Protestantism and Catholicism. One of these must be on basically every government form you fill out. Islam, which is the religion of the majority of Indonesians, is like the "default" category. I.e. if someone is filling out a government form for you in Indonesia and your last name is "Obama" they are probably just going to write "Muslim" on the form without a second thought. It really doesn't mean anything within the Indonesian cultural context at the time.

I'd like to add - yes Indonesia has its radicals, like every country does, but in general the Islam practiced there is VERY different then the Islam practiced in the Middle East. I'd recommend the books by Trinidadian scholar and Nobel prize winner V.S. Naipaul for more on Islam on the Asian continent, especially Among the Believers and Beyond Belief.

I agree that an understanding of other cultures is vital...What I have a problem with is Obama trying to cover this and many other facts up. He has said that he was raised by a single mother his whole life....not true. Why would he try to hide and cover up facts if he was truly proud of his past and where he came from......If you go back to the beginning of his campaign, MANY facts and points have changed as people have uncovered things.

And thanks for the recommendation....I have a masters degree in Religion and have studied World Religions for many years......we all have our life experiences and knowledge to pull from when making a decision as this. That is what makes this such a well rounded country ehhh.

[guatparents2be]

Originally Posted by ToulouG

I agree that an understanding of other cultures is vital...What I have a problem with is Obama trying to cover this and many other facts up. He has said that he was raised by a single mother his whole life....not true. Why would he try to hide and cover up facts if he was truly proud of his past and where he came from......If you go back to the beginning of his campaign, MANY facts and points have changed as people have uncovered things.

I think that Obama is very confident in himself and proud of his family. There are people though that take the fact that he lived abroad and has had a multicultural experience to be unamerican. All campaigns have to try to be inclusive and not alienate people. All campaigns spin and try to present facts in certain ways for easiest public consumption. Are mistakes sometimes made in the effort not to have something blown out of preportion? Sure.

Now that said, as a woman who is now part of a multicultural and multiracial family I think it is even more important to have a president that can have a multilateral approach to foreign policy.

Even though Obama isn't Muslim, I would be proud as an American to have a Muslim president to show the world we aren't just a bunch of biggots here. Now an extremist Muslim? I wouldn't support that. But I feel the same way about an extremist Evangelical or an extremist Hasidic Jew (I am Jewish.) Public servants in my view should be open to people being any religion they choose, or no religion at all. IMHO, if someone has a personal philosophical agenda that others should be converted to their religion or that their religion is the only correct one, I think they shouldn't be in office unless they can publicly state that they wouldn't superimpose their values on their constituents, period.

And how does this impact Obama's ability as a father? Not at all. Do I still have an opinion that doesn't go along with most people I know regarding women vs men in office, I guess so. I acknowledge that it is sexist. As a mother, even the primary wage earner and #2 parent in my family I still say there is a difference between working for a company or yourself, and working as VP or perhaps president. It kills me to bail on feminist party line, and I wouldn't have said this 2 years ago before J came home but yes, I have sexist views on this issue.

[Wonk]

I don't believe that Obama has "hidden" or "tried to cover up" any part of his life. His life is out there for anyone who wants to look it up.

Let's be honest here. Trying to paint Obama as a Muslim is really about trying to paint him as a terrorist because somehow all Muslims must be suspect as being terrorists because Islam preaches violence, especially violence against Christians. It also is code for him being black. It isn't OK any more to say out loud that he is black so you should be afraid of him. So you say that he might secretly be "Muslim" which is code for black. At minimum, being "Muslim" must mean that he is some kind of freak because real, decent people are Christians and not Muslims.

Islam doesn't preach violence. Islam doesn't preach violence against Christians. In fact, the core of Islam is about peace and about upholding the same values as Christians. I'm from the great state of Minnesota and we sent Keith Ellison to Congress from the Fifth District and I couldn't be more proud of sending a decent, devout man to represent us. I know people who follow Islam and there is nothing exotic about them. They shop at the same stores, dogo to the zoo and Children's Museum and have the same hopes for their kid, family and lives. I was raised Catholic but went to Protestant kindergarden. Why shouldn't these same people be afraid that I'm going to grow up to be a Protestant terrorist? Ireland has had a long history of them so why not here too? It makes no sense except to spread fear.

As to using "Muslim" as code for people of color, I think us who have adopted children of color should be extremely concerned about this kind of rhetoric. This board has many people who have chosen to raise children of color. And when a group of people choose profile someone simply because of skin color and where someone went to school when they were seven, folks like us need to stand up because that could be our kid that they do this to.

And of course, the funniest thing about all of this is that Obama is Christian yet the far right still fights against him. Electing someone from their own faith isnt enough. If I were Christian, I would think that electing either would be great.

So my challenge to the people of this board, who are raising children of color, to question what this means for their own children when people do this kind of profiling based on their skin color and where someone went to school when they were eight. Because if we don't stand up against this stuff, who will be there for our kids?

[Mindybeth6]

As for multi-cultural experiences, I agree that they are a WONDERFUL thing. As for Obama having lived in an Islamic area...his mother was there to HELP others and his mother was an amazing woman. From what I understand he started in a Catholic school there but money was very tight, and she could no longer afford to send him there, therefore she put him in the "public" school where he was more exposed to this type of religion. After a little while his mother decided feared that he was not getting a quality education and would fall behind on his Engligh and other skills she knew he needed to learn, and she made the decision to send him to her parents where he then lived until graduation. He wasn't just "hanging out" over there for no reason...his mother was doing good things for the people and he has many memories of his mother and the things that she did, people that she knew. Do I think he is a "closet Muslim?" No, I don't. I really do not believe that. He didn't choose to live there! I respect Obama as an individual, but he still does not represent the type of president that I personally want.

As for religion playing a part in elections, I think that for a lot of people it does. I was talking about this last night with a friend and we talked about it. How would we feel if a person of X religion was running for office. We were both not sure how we would feel. Does it play a part in my choices? I will not lie, yes, it does. And it likely always will. But that's just ME and how I feel and I am entitled to feel that way. That is not to say I would NOT vote for a person of a different religion, I am just saying that it plays a role in what I look at in a candidate. I do not want a president with a religious agenda, I was a president who is qualified, but I still want to know that the person who oversees my country believes in the same core values that I do. That is important to me.

[JoshGuat]

I do not like to personally attack ones family in any negative way. I do not know his family nor socialized with them. Appearances do not mean anything, so I can't go on anything solid. I am sure that he is doing the best that he can though.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by Wonk

I don't believe that Obama has "hidden" or "tried to cover up" any part of his life. His life is out there for anyone who wants to look it up.

Let's be honest here. Trying to paint Obama as a Muslim is really about trying to paint him as a terrorist because somehow all Muslims must be suspect as being terrorists because Islam preaches violence, especially violence against Christians. It also is code for him being black. It isn't OK any more to say out loud that he is black so you should be afraid of him. So you say that he might secretly be "Muslim" which is code for black. At minimum, being "Muslim" must mean that he is some kind of freak because real, decent people are Christians and not Muslims.

Islam doesn't preach violence. Islam doesn't preach violence against Christians. In fact, the core of Islam is about peace and about upholding the same values as Christians. I'm from the great state of Minnesota and we sent Keith Ellison to Congress from the Fifth District and I couldn't be more proud of sending a decent, devout man to represent us. I know people who follow Islam and there is nothing exotic about them. They shop at the same stores, dogo to the zoo and Children's Museum and have the same hopes for their kid, family and lives. I was raised Catholic but went to Protestant kindergarden. Why shouldn't these same people be afraid that I'm going to grow up to be a Protestant terrorist? Ireland has had a long history of them so why not here too? It makes no sense except to spread fear.

As to using "Muslim" as code for people of color, I think us who have adopted children of color should be extremely concerned about this kind of rhetoric. This board has many people who have chosen to raise children of color. And when a group of people choose profile someone simply because of skin color and where someone went to school when they were seven, folks like us need to stand up because that could be our kid that they do this to.

And of course, the funniest thing about all of this is that Obama is Christian yet the far right still fights against him. Electing someone from their own faith isnt enough. If I were Christian, I would think that electing either would be great.

So my challenge to the people of this board, who are raising children of color, to question what this means for their own children when people do this kind of profiling based on their skin color and where someone went to school when they were eight. Because if we don't stand up against this stuff, who will be there for our kids?

1) As far as I know, you are the first person to say anything about Obama's skin color on this board.

2) I absolutely disagree that "Muslim" has any connection with "skin color." Cat Stevens is Greek and, what, Swedish? He's Muslim. I have muslim friends who are Indian, Pakistani, white European, and black American. Mohammad was not black. Indonesian Muslims are generally not black. Most Muslims are not black. Muslims come in all colors of the rainbow.

3) I don't personally think of Obama as black, and even less as a black American. His wife, maybe, but not him. He is half white and was not raised as an African-American at all. I think of him as a white guy with brown skin.

4) 3 of the 5 people in my household, and at least half of my friends, including a man I nearly married, have darker skin than Obama, and they are very dear to my heart. The very first person I ever hired and mentored was a black man. I am not racist nor do I discriminate based on skin color.

5) I made a point in the prior post to the effect that I respect and revere Islam and have many dear friends who are Muslim. Moreover, I don't happen to consider myself Christian. I certainly don't discriminate based on religion.

I have been watching Obama for years and I know his record. He is saying what he feels will get him elected now. I will not vote for him because of his record, which has absolutely nothing to do with his skin color or his religion. The fact that he lies and hides things about his past only proves that he is not to be trusted.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by guatparents2be

Do I still have an opinion that doesn't go along with most people I know regarding women vs men in office, I guess so. I acknowledge that it is sexist. As a mother, even the primary wage earner and #2 parent in my family I still say there is a difference between working for a company or yourself, and working as VP or perhaps president. It kills me to bail on feminist party line, and I wouldn't have said this 2 years ago before J came home but yes, I have sexist views on this issue.

I agree there is a difference. To me, the difference is that being able to serve the country in such a way offsets the family's sacrifice much more than just about any other job. And that is true whether we're talking about a mother or a father.

[erinelway]

Saya-your post was beautiful, and expressed a lot of my thoughts on this issue. It's pretty critical that we have someone in office right now who understands the culture of Islam.

What is wrong with stating this fact? Are you ashamed of it? Would you rather most people remain ignorant of it? Why?

SKL, out of my whole post, this is all you could come up with? It's a little bit...silly. Obama hasn't tried to hide anything...not even a daughter's pregnant belly behind a baby.

As for Obama having lived in an Islamic area...his mother was there to HELP others and his mother was an amazing woman.

It's nice to see this acknowledged! Thank you. Even if you disagree with his politics, you obviously know quite a bit about his life and can at least respect some of it.

I think of him as a white guy with brown skin.

Oh, dear. This is a bit frightening, to be honest, especially coming from someone with so many friends who are minorities. If he's such a "white guy", then why the disparaging comments about his alleged muslim upbringing?

I made a point in the prior post to the effect that I respect and revere Islam and have many dear friends who are Muslim.

I would like to point out that you have also made inflammatory comments about Muslims and are desperately trying to backpedal now. You owe this board an apology for your comments.