[Mindybeth6]

Originally Posted by adoptnky

I think I saw the same program that SKL is talking about. This was a "documentary" (I'm using that term pretty loosly) that was filmed in the spring (just before Trig was born). They mentioned that Mr. Palin is a Mr. Mom.

If Mr. Palin said that he was going to be the "stay at home" parent taking care of the kids, would everyone feel better? (and I'm not just asking Wonk) If not, then this screams of sexism.

I still don't understand why we think that she can't handle a job (yes, I high profile job) and being a mom.

So, I guess what many people are saying is that all women need to leave their careers behind until all of their children are out of the house. At that point we can then strive for our career goals. Anything else that we might want isn't right.

I have a high stress job. I made a decision to switch roles after Alex came home. I now work 3 days a week, and I'm very happy with the arrangement I have with my employer.

I would hate to think that I wouldn't get support if I had made a different decision. I would be working 5 days a week and traveling (mostly overnight trips) at least 10-15 days a month. Would I be a bad mother?

I really need to stop reading these threads because they just make me so mad at the double standard that I didn't think I needed to argue with other mothers.

Kim

I agree with you. This is why I haven't responded back lately, ESPECIALLY about abortion because I get VERY fired up about that. I have to wonder, since a lot of the people responding seem to be voting for Obama, if this was YOUR candidate...would you be so harsh?

[erinelway]

I have to wonder, since a lot of the people responding seem to be voting for Obama, if this was YOUR candidate...would you be so harsh?

I haven't really commented on Palin's family, so my personal answer would be that my reaction would be the same. It also helps that the party I tend to vote with generally makes no comments about family values and how a family should be structured. Personally, I'm not voting for McCain/Palin because there is only one issue on which I agree with them. And I would never vote for someone just because they are a woman or they have a lot of children. That's ridiculous in the extreme.

So now, you've got to answer my question, too (I thank the person who did). If Palin were Hillary Clinton, what would you be saying about her? Not "you" necessarily, but the mouthpieces of the right? I'm just guessing here, but it would probably such things as, "nice family values" and "she's such an ambitious liberal that she'll walk all over her children to get elected".

Question: If Palin is such a young rising star, why can't she wait a few years before running? After all, look how long McCain has had to wait for his "turn". Answer: Because she's a gimmick, and she knows it.

In response to her speech being what VP speeches generally are, not surprisingly, I disagree. Her affect during the speech is one that has been criticised heavily. A lot of people have described her as someone who "once they make up their mind they won't change it", and this came through in her sneering, snarky speech. This, to me, is not an admirable characteristic for a VP or a President.

Lastly, THANK YOU, WONK for posting REAL scientific studies showing the efficacy of sex education.

[SKL]

I recall a study that showed that the #1 most important factor in the success of a woman, from the perspective of her upbringing, is how much time her FATHER spent with her.

So we really should be chiding Mr. Obama for not being a real father to his girls, if parenting choices are fair game for criticism at all (and I'm not saying they are).

As the single mom of 2 girls, I hope there are ways for Ms. Obama to overcome this reality, but if we're gonna have a fair "parenting debate," then this and many other aspects of Obama's parenting should be discussed.

Like, how about his either (a) taking his kids to the Church of XXX America every Sunday, or (b) not really taking his kids to church at all but lying about it? (Not sure which he is guilty of, but neither seems like a great American parenting practice to me.) Yeah, don't get me started on his family skeletons, either, because I know of a few. But he says families are off limits and we've chosen to respect that as far as "his" family is concerned. Ms. Palin deserves the same but isn't likely to get it, as we have seen.

[Wonk]

taking his kids to the Church of XXX America every Sunday

I'd be careful of that one because Palin's extreme right wing church was preaching two weeks ago that Israel's problems with being attacked by its neighbors is because the Jews haven't accepted Jesus. Personally, I think that stuff is out of bounds too.

As to my comments about who is parenting the kids, I do believe that one parent can have a demanding job while the other parent takes up the slack, regardless of the gender of each parent. The problem with Palin is that her husband is an oil field worker who ihas been in the field two weeks out of every four. And he has traditionally taken a month away from the family to hunt and fish. So you have to ask what "family values" mean for someone who is so vigerously promoting them for everyone else but not apparently living them themselves.

She herself got pregnant before getting married even though she supports abstenence. I don't think it is wrong to preach abstinence (even though statistics don't support it being effective) but it goes down a bit hard when your own life doesn't support how you tell other people to live.

[CEB]

While I disagree with Sarah Palin on many (perhaps all) of her social policies and I have not heard her enough of outlook on economic policy (besides drill, drill, drill) or national security to be able to make an informed judgement on those, I have to join with supporters in saying I would prefer to leave her family life out of the discussion. I do not see it as part of her qualification for the job. I will acknowledge that some on the conservative side of politics have historically blended the family choices into politics (no denying the "women should stay at home to support the family" writings of certain extreme conservatives) but that does not make it right (as in correct). Her family choices are her choices and I am glad that I live in a country where she has had the option to pursue a high profile career and have a family. However, her (and more importantly McCain's; or alternatively Obama's) policies will significantly impact my and my childs life. I truly believe that the issues facing our country in the next 4-8 years are exceedingly complex and there are no easy answers. I personally am not in favor of single issue voting - there is just too much at stake here to reflexively vote based on one single issue and ignore the whole picture. We need to elect leaders who have the intelligence to understand the complexity and the ability to guide the country through in the best manner possible. So - I have nothing to say about Sarah Palins family - or about Joe Biden's, Barak Obama's or John McCain's. I wish everyone would focus more on the issues, but I know that is just my utopia.

[jandc]

SKL, you've really crossed the line.
a) taking his kids to the Church of XXX America every Sunday

I have some passionate opinions about all this but I chose not to comment because I don't think I can keep it toned down. I really appreciate those who can and that is why I've been reading this thread from the start. But now it has gotten to a point where I would rather see it shut down.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by jandc

SKL, you've really crossed the line.
a) taking his kids to the Church of XXX America every Sunday

I have some passionate opinions about all this but I chose not to comment because I don't think I can keep it toned down. I really appreciate those who can and that is why I've been reading this thread from the start. But now it has gotten to a point where I would rather see it shut down.

Just quoting his pastor about whom he wrote an entire book praising him, the guy who officiated at his wedding and baptized his daughters.

I honestly do have a problem with anyone who thinks it's OK for young children to be sitting in church and hearing that. Politics aside, I feel that is very unhealthy for an American child to hear. Since we're talking about the candidates' parenting choices, I have to say that having his daughters attend such sermons is a terrible parenting choice, in my opinion. Certainly no better than whatever Ms. Palin allegedly did to be the cause of her daughter's pregnancy.

I've been offended quite a few times on this thread, by the way.

[erinelway]

I honestly do have a problem with anyone who thinks it's OK for young children to be sitting in church and hearing that.

Oh, dear. I thought we had moved past this type of mudslinging about religion back when Kennedy became the first (and only) Catholic president. SKL: You have shown your true colors with this post and others. Religious intolerance is a big no-no in this great country of ours.

[crick]

This is moving too far into the "Land of No Return" phase. Please take a breath before replying to a post if you have to and remember to post respectfully. I'm not singling anyone out and I recognize people are for the most part participating respectfully. Just consider this a reminder that we are watching and if necessary, we will close the thread.


Also - I've made a few edits on here regarding the cussing. Please remember we are a family site and we do require family friendly language.

Thanks!
Crick

[guatparents2be]

Originally Posted by SKL

Just quoting his pastor about whom he wrote an entire book praising him, the guy who officiated at his wedding and baptized his daughters.

I honestly do have a problem with anyone who thinks it's OK for young children to be sitting in church and hearing that. Politics aside, I feel that is very unhealthy for an American child to hear. Since we're talking about the candidates' parenting choices, I have to say that having his daughters attend such sermons is a terrible parenting choice, in my opinion. Certainly no better than whatever Ms. Palin allegedly did to be the cause of her daughter's pregnancy.

I've been offended quite a few times on this thread, by the way.

We all have our individual belief systems about what is and is not appropriate in a religious context.

I personally feel it is unhealthy for an American child to hear that her friends who don't have her beliefs are going to hell. Actually I feel it is unhealthy to scare a child with the idea of hell, period. But that is my belief system and I am not going to walk into someone's church or life and tell them I think that they are causing damage to the children listening to their preacher, whether I believe that or not.

We live in a country where all opinions are allowed to be shared and discussed. We are even allowed to say, shout, and publish (gasp!) our opinions about things that we dislike, hate, or are ashamed of about our country.

It doesn't mean I don't love my country (which has in the constitution a separation of church and state, by the way) but may mean that I disagree with things that it does. Free country= Free speech, whether it is 'appropriate' or not.

Just my personal opinion!

[wvamom]

Can I go back to the original thought? I posed the question to our 19 year old daughter, about whether Governor Palin should be disqualified from being VP because of having five children. (Although I am not a VP by any means, I am a working mom, and I started law school when our 19 year old was 2 months old. I took the bar exam when our 15 year old was 5 days old, and a started a new job when he was six weeks old, and took him along. Did I mention he has Down syndrome?)

Her answer was, she thought that a woman could be an effective mother and a vice president, or any other job, as well. And don't think she said that simply because she thought it was what I wanted to hear, either! She is very independent-minded. The lesson she said she got from our lives was that you could make things work if you really wanted to. She cited to the fact that I have worked at home two days a week (three days in the office) to be with our boys. I also, like Governor Palin, got to have my second and third children each with me in the office when they were infants, until they were 18 months old. My oldest daughter doesn't seem to feel that she suffered because of my working during her formative years. If anything, she picked up on being able to achieve whatever goals she set--she was valedictorian in high school, has had straight A's in college, is active in her church, plays sax and clarinet in the band, has an apartment, and works evenings and weekends to support herself. Did I mention she will graduate from college after 3 years instead of four, and at the age of 19? Heck, maybe SHE will be running for VP in a few years here!

My point is just this--good moms have responsible jobs; good moms work at home; good moms work part-time; good moms are stay at home moms (like my 3 great sisters in law, all "retired" professionals); good moms homeschool their kids; good moms send their kids to public school and make sure they learn; good moms send their kids to private school and are actively involved there. I don't think we can put a "good mom" label on someone just because of her other responsibilities, nor is it our job to do so.

Carolyn

[SKL]

I deeply respect all religions, but the quote in question has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with hate. The fact that it was uttered in a church is only relevant in that this is where young children are a captive audience.

For all we know, that's what Mr. Obama was hearing during his childhood education in a muslim country, so maybe he thinks that's fine and dandy.

I am the first person to say let's stay away from criticizing ALL of the candidates about ALL of their parenting choices. No double standard, please. The double standard is the single most offensive thing on this thread, in my opinion.

Freedom of speech - I like that. Family forum - I totally agree with that - but I would have thought a quote from a church sermon ought to be OK to post in a family forum. My apologies.

[Mindybeth6]

People can argue seperation of church and state all they want but when push comes to shove, it's our morals, typically gained from our religion, that help guide us in the choices we make, whether President of the US or a mom at home. Religion governs our daily life. That is, if you are religious. As for the question about Clinton I was asked, yes I respect Clinton as a political figure but there are personal choices she made that I do NOT agree with. Did I still value her? Yes. Did I even look at her when making my choice? Yes. Did her personal choices influence my decision? No. When it came down to it she just doesn't stand for what I do. But I respect her.

As for the comment about Palin being a rising star and why run for VP so quickly? I could say the same thing about Obama. But I haven't. I see people attacking Palin and McCain right and left and most of it boils down to social issues in this thread which leads me to my final point.

Republicans will be Republicans and Democrats will be Democrats and it is obvious that the two, at least in the context of this forum, do not work well together, which is a REAL shame. I open myself up to my Democratic friends all the time...never pushing my beliefs on them even though I may disagree. I think it's sad that this conversation took the turn that it did and sad that the country is so divided.

[jandc]

deeply respect all religions, but the quote in question has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with hate. The fact that it was uttered in a church is only relevant in that this is where young children are a captive audience.

For all we know, that's what Mr. Obama was hearing during his childhood education in a muslim country, so maybe he thinks that's fine and dandy.

I am the first person to say let's stay away from criticizing ALL of the candidates about ALL of their parenting choices. No double standard, please. The double standard is the single most offensive thing on this thread, in my opinion.

Freedom of speech - I like that. Family forum - I totally agree with that - but I would have thought a quote from a church sermon ought to be OK to post in a family forum. My apologies.

Like I said earlier SKL, you have crossed the line.
Your tongue in cheek apology is not lost to readers. Your attacks on Obama have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the original post. If you want a heated political debate, which each of your posts are, feel free to pm me.

[erinelway]

For all we know, that's what Mr. Obama was hearing during his childhood education in a muslim country, so maybe he thinks that's fine and dandy.

I had no idea Hawaii was a muslim country. I am also offended by the implication about muslims here. Very offended.

As for the comment about Palin being a rising star and why run for VP so quickly? I could say the same thing about Obama.

This is a fair question, I think. I guess I would say that the difference here is that Obama won the support of about half of this country after running in the primaries. He was selected over Hillary Clinton. So, apparently a fair proportion of the US thinks he is qualified.

I do want to add that morals are not borne of Religion. Many people who would not describe themselves as religious have a very strong morality. It's more what you do than what you say.