[szumbiel]

Now more related--I agree with Crick that if the consequence did not work the first three times why would we assume it would change the behavior the next time! Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Sounds like the teacher practices insanity daily.

I would move my kid--no options in not doing so. If this is the attitue you get this early in the year...it will only get worse.

I also like the thought "Where did we ever get the crazy idea kids must feel worse first to do better." I know if I messed up and my boss made me walk the fence I would not be reflecting on my behavior and how to do better. I would spend that time thinking of how to get him back--which is just what kids do!

I would encourage anyone to read Positive Discipline in the Classroom to see an effective approach to treating kids with dignity and respect, creating a collaborative, democratic classroom, and having fun with kids all on one great day after another! Isn't this how we would want to be treated--well kids deserve that too.

I am a teacher and I feel sorry for kids who end up like teachers like this one.

Sonya

[Waiting4Celeste]

Originally Posted by jules17

Cindy, I think I read your first paragraph incorrectly. I know you (well, from the past weekend) and you don't strike me as the type to negate another's opinion just because I (I'll use myself as an example) don't have children in kindergarten yet.

Julie - you're right, I wasn't negating other people's opinions... I was just trying to explain that sometimes we have ideas as parents of how we will discipline and then once the kids reach that age, our opinions change. I didn't say that to imply that you don't know what you are talking about... I was just saying that it is hard to know how we'd react unless our kids are that age and we know how our kids deal with certain situations. (I hope that makes sense... I am having a hard time expressing what I mean... maybe lack of sleep from the past weekend!? )
I REALLY thought that I had it all figured out - I have a degree in Psychology and I taught Pre-K - but once I had a child of my own reach that age, I realized I was not an expert. (not saying that any of us are claiming to be experts - just explaining my own situation) I use techniques I NEVER thought I'd use because they just work with our children.
But - as I am realizing by reading all the posts, my opinion about this situation is based on MY own child and that even though I may not have a problem with what this teacher is doing, that doesn't mean that it is best for every child. I am learning a lot by this discussion and I appreciate everyone who has been "brave" enough to post their opinions. That's how we grow as parents.

I hope that better explains what I meant. I definitely did not mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.

[SKL]

Originally Posted by szumbiel

Now more related--I agree with Crick that if the consequence did not work the first three times why would we assume it would change the behavior the next time! Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I don't know, but it seems to me that every type of discipline that's ever been widely recommended on this board or anywhere else in the past 10 years has involved doing the same thing over and over even though it practically never works the first few times. Time out, 123 magic, etc.

I agree that 5 is too young for 30 minutes of walking the fence, but the concept of walking the fence (or other non-violent "physical discipline") is not per se wrong, in my opinion. Certainly not because it doesn't always work the first time.

And based on my experience, I'd guess it does work the first or second time in many (most?) cases. Mainly because the kid knows he doesn't want "that" to happen again.

[mommytoEli]

Originally Posted by Waiting4Celeste

MommytoEli didn't mention that the kids would be punished for not sitting still or any other behaviors that are typical of 5 & 6 year olds...maybe the teacher is giving that punishment for bigger offenses. -??-

it is the same consequence for everything....no matter the severity. so if she has to warn a chlid repeatedly for talking to their neighbor or not sitting in their seat, they will be walking the fence.

[mommytoEli]

Originally Posted by Waiting4Celeste

Julie - you're right, I wasn't negating other people's opinions... I was just trying to explain that sometimes we have ideas as parents of how we will discipline and then once the kids reach that age, our opinions change. I didn't say that to imply that you don't know what you are talking about... I was just saying that it is hard to know how we'd react unless our kids are that age and we know how our kids deal with certain situations. (I hope that makes sense... I am having a hard time expressing what I mean... maybe lack of sleep from the past weekend!? )
I REALLY thought that I had it all figured out - I have a degree in Psychology and I taught Pre-K - but once I had a child of my own reach that age, I realized I was not an expert. (not saying that any of us are claiming to be experts - just explaining my own situation) I use techniques I NEVER thought I'd use because they just work with our children.
But - as I am realizing by reading all the posts, my opinion about this situation is based on MY own child and that even though I may not have a problem with what this teacher is doing, that doesn't mean that it is best for every child. I am learning a lot by this discussion and I appreciate everyone who has been "brave" enough to post their opinions. That's how we grow as parents.

I hope that better explains what I meant. I definitely did not mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.

i totally know what you mean. and as a mother of 5 kids- 9 months, 2.5, 5, 13.5, and 14.5....i am blown away each year by how much i didn't know, and how different each of them are at each age. what i do know to be true is that parading them in front of their friends would not work for any of my school aged kids....and PE as discipline would not work for any of my children. as a school teacher of many years, and a k teacher for 5, i know in my district we were specifically told we could NOT do this to children. we could in no way require children to do physical work outside of PE.

i guess a better question for this late in the thread would look more like this:

"what would you do if you DID disagree with your child's classroom behavioral/discipline plan?"

then what would you say or do?

the bottom line is i know my child. i know that this will not only be ineffective, but i know it will crush his spirit and love for school. i do acknowledge that he needs something, which i am willing to discuss with her, as there are MANY MANY options other than walking the fence. i am not a pie in the sky parent who thinks my kid can do no wrong. if i thought my kid could do no wrong, i'd have no problem with the plan bc i know he'd never need it! lol. but he will need a plan, and this plan will not work for me. we had a bad experience with a preschool plan last year, and i didn't speak up until it was too late. i won't make that same mistake twice with the same kid. he still talks about it. i hope to speak with her about it tomorrow and i hope we can come to an agreement without me having to find a way to move him.

[allgodsgrace]

I just found this thread and as a teacher of kindergarten for 10 years I feel qualified to reply. To respond to the OP, any form of discipline a teacher uses in the classroom will have at least one parent disagreeing. Either the teacher is too lenient or too strict. The teacher may be too loud or not firm enough. It can even range in the teacher being too set in her ways from years of experience or too green from college to know better. That being said, as a teacher I find my co-workers and myself constantly searching for ways to discipline the class effectively. If we have a child who is having a terrible day and recess comes around, a time-out or loss of playtime rarely affects the child since it is often overused. Also a loss of playtime for a five year old will make the rest of the day torture on both the child and the teacher since the energy has not been spent. I agree with the idea of walking the fence. I know it is not a popular opinion on here, but hear me out. A child who is repeatedly committing offenses needs more than playground punishment, parents and principal will need to become involved. From what I have read the principal does not strike me as the type to back the teachers. She has tried to find a suitable punishment. I know here in Virginia teachers may not have the child write sentences over and over, move the child away from the rest of the group for the day, single the child out by writing the name on the board, or even point at the child when speaking to him/her. Most of the things we can "take away" have been taken from us. America has become sedentary and the walking is a good form of exercise and time for the child to "think" about what has taken place during that day. After all that is what timeouts are for.

[guatparents2be]

skipped the school supply post since my kid is still in diapers but i would not keep my kid in a classroom where the teacher did this. imho it is wrong for countless reasons. i'm so sorry.

[TeeTee]

My sons school does this. NOT for the ENTIRE recess, which is 20 minutes. He has never had to do it. But even last year when he was in Kindergarten they used this as punishment. They would make them walk laps...5 laps, 10 laps. Not walk the entire time. I am ok with walking 5-10 laps as the playground there is not big. Now walking for 20 - 30 mins would be inappropriate for their age, in my opinion.

[becky]

I have known several teachers who use a 'wisdom walk' as a form of discipline. I think the thought process was this...it's recess, they need to be getting some physical exercise. Many teachers use 'time out' from recess as a form of discipline, but some kids really need to be exercising and letting off some steam...so having them sit isn't necessarily a great idea. Instead of sitting for 5 minutes, you walk for 5 minutes and you use that time to think about how you can better your behavior in class.

I know my son did a LOT of wisdom walks 2 years ago. I actually preferred it to him just sitting out of recess for 10 minutes.

[kakuehl]

I think part of the problem that MommytoEli was expressing that it was making a 5 year old walk for 30 minutes, not for 5 or 10 minutes. It also appears to me that part of the problem is the attitude of the teacher and the way she talked to the parents, before any of them had said or done anything!

[mommytoEli]

Originally Posted by kakuehl

I think part of the problem that MommytoEli was expressing that it was making a 5 year old walk for 30 minutes, not for 5 or 10 minutes. It also appears to me that part of the problem is the attitude of the teacher and the way she talked to the parents, before any of them had said or done anything!

that is part of my big problem.

today my dh mentioned it to the asst principal...and they about fell over and said this was NOT allowed here. oops. guess no "wisdom walks" for anyone.

i spent a lot of time reading about this online today...many states count any form of forced physical activity outside of PE as corporal punishment, and it is not allowed. our district does not allow it either...just seems like the teacher didn't know and the principal claimed it was a "grey area," and that was quickly cleared up by the asst principal. it will be interesting to see how it all unravels.

we will never all agree on this area...that is clear, but i think the thing is that as parents, we learn to advocate for what we know our children need, and i know, my child needs something else to be successful. for you this may not seem like a big deal, but chances are in the 13 years of school your child attends, there will be something you run across that does not sit well with you, and i know that you will advocate for your child in the best way you can as well. in the end, we are all parents just looking out for our children...i think THAT is something we can agree on.

i really appreciate everyone's opinions on this thread. it really helped me to shape my arguement and really cement in my mind why i thought it was not okay.

[myguatbabes]

Well, honestly, my first reaction would be to go to school and have a word of prayer with that teacher. Then logic would hopefully kick in and I would contact the advocacy council and demand a meeting with the teacher, her principal and an advocate. At that meeting I would insist that my child have a behavior plan put in place that I could live with and would not be repeatedly punished for longer and longer periods of time or subjected to punishments that obviously do NOT work. JMHO!!

So sorry this is happening to your little one!!

Blessings

[xxsurroundedbyxy]

Originally Posted by mommytoEli

still not over the school supply fiasco....don't get me started again. lol. but last night i went to back to school night. the teacher holds up this piece of paper and says, "sign it, turn it in, and then don't call me in the middle of the year telling me you 'didn't know' my discipline policy bc i'll pull this out and say 'yes you did.' " i look down and it says that the 3rd, 4th, and 5th time she has to warn my child in a day, he will walk the fence at his recess time for 5, 10, or 30 minutes. um...he's five. as much as i know that there needs to be a plan (former school teacher here, 5 years in K), i really disagree with making little kids have a physical punishment at recess for something that went wrong in class. i also feel like this causes a child to be ostracized by kids as they have to walk by all of them playing while they walk the fence. again.....they are five. it really bothers me.

what's your opinion?

*Note: did not read ALL the other six pages of comments before posting to the original posters comments.

We've been doing it in local schools for years (me included I'm afraid). I had several ADHD kids in class over the years. Sitting at recess has been a punishment for years, but you can't expect kids to not get some exercise. And many, if they don't get some physical activity, will just have more problems the rest of the day. We always had them walk the perimeter of the basketball court. The other kids were always too busy playing to bother ostracizing them. When you taught, what did you do? Did you give her that advice?

I chuckled when I read the people who called it "cruel and unusual" and "hard labor"........come on guys, what would the child NORMALLY be doing at recess.....running, swinging, sliding.......is that cruel, unusual, and hard labor too! LOL The only difference is that this is controlled physical behavior. The child isn't getting to do what they WANT for 5, 10, 15 minutes but they ARE getting physical exercise which is needed. You never have to worry about your child walking for 30 minutes here because kindergartners get two recesses (one in the am and one after lunch) and both are only 15 minutes long. The other grades (1-4) get one recess and it is after lunch for 20 minutes. That's it! So you can see why they need to be active because they don't get much time at all to be active. I totally agree with Becky above.

[angelkisses0102]

mommytoeli~
I think it was way back on this thread you mentioned my quote...LOVE IT! I keep thinking about changing it but haven't found anything to replace it with.

I have been reading and thinking about this thread since I first responded...especially the posts from parents who think that if a child is raised *properly* and *held* to certain standards that this or any one size fits all *punishment* is fitting and if we just hold our kids more acccountable all will be well.

Up until March 15, 2004 I probably would have agreed with you. I had the *perfect* child...the easy to parent child...the post-institutionalized adoptee who transitioned perfectly...the very verbal and highly intelligent, super well behaved daughter. Then everything I ever knew about children, parenting, relationships, and me was abruptly challenged...I suddenly became the parent to the polar opposite child of my first child. I became the parent of a surprise special needs child...a child who many would not even agree was special needs by looking at him...the 'joy' invisible special needs. Plus his issues were at the time not widely accepted by everyone, even in the adoption community (attachment) and even most his continuing issues (sensory and significant developmental delays) are not obvious.

One of the best things about becoming the parent to this type of child is that it stripped away many of my rigid beliefs on parenting children and myself. I realized I just got pretty dang lucky that my daughter was easy to parent...it honestly had NOTHING to do with my ability to parent. It had everything to do with how my daughter was 'hard-wired' and how she decided to face the challenges of life. (Of course now that she is seven and in 2nd grade...oh boy is it a whole new ball game with her...and she is no longer my easier to parent child...but that is another story/post.)

I am much, much more compassionate toward the parents of other kids...and the kids themselves. I'll never forget the day two years ago in Wal-Mart when the mom of a lil' guy about 4 was trying everything in her power to get him in his stroller, just so they could simply shop. He was thrashing and screaming at the top of his lungs...resisting every attempt she ever so calmly made. I was in line and people were commenting (not so nicely) and my first thought was I wanted to run over and give her a hug and see if I could help. Why? Because I knew EXACTLY how she felt as I had been there and done that too many times to count.

All of our kids are all unique...they are individuals...they are different. Some are easy to parent...some aren't. Often it has nothing to do with us as parents and everything to do with our kids. Some of us are forced to change ourselves and realize that parenting is an ever evolving relationship with our kids. What works for one child will have the opposite effect on another child...sometimes even within the same family (living that!!!)

I think teachers and schools should allow for this as well. We are blessed to be in a great public elementary school in a decent district. We have been blessed to have teachers who want a relationship with us as parents...partners in raising and educating the child. I could list countless examples but suffice it to say that there are no one size fits all *punishments* at this school...there is no one size fits all classrooms...they, with the parents input, look at the child and see what will work best for them within the various classroom settings. My DD is in a multi-age classroom...my son in a high functioning special needs classroom. My neighbors kids are in traditional classroom settings...and all are succeeding! I KNOW we are lucky...but it also shows that educating to the individual child can and does happen...even in a public school setting. And hopefully someday this will be a viable option for all of our kids...but in the mean time...when we as parents see something that doesn't seem quite right for our child...I hope we continue to speak up and challenge it. Because for every parent that speaks up...my guess is there are plenty of others who silently suffer.

Great thread by the way!

[crick]

It's funny, but this thread was part of our dinner discussion the other night. I asked my kids what they thought of the rule. (3,4,5&6th graders)

They all thought walking would be more fun than sitting on the wall but not for 30 min. They said they would get bored just walking back & forth and start running or skipping etc. so they could have some fun.

I said "No, you can't do that, you are in time out"

"Walking is NOT time out Mom! Time outs are for thinking about what you did wrong and you have to sit and be quiet for that"

"I can do that but I'm in 6th grade but a kindergartener has little legs and they would be so tired!"

This comment was followed up by dd who is very logical..."And if they are tired, they'll just go back to class and do nothing. Then they'll just get in trouble all over again".

Just interesting...the kid perspective...