[SKL]

I don't know, reading these posts, I am getting the feeling we aren't expecting much from our 5-year-olds. This is a great diversion from a long history.

I begin to understand why it's getting so popular to hold kids back based on a lack of "readiness." If your kid isn't ready to accept being singled out for his misdeeds; isn't ready to make a connection between action and a later punishment; isn't ready to sit still; I don't know. I bet most of these kids could do it if we really expected it of them. But yeah, if we have a hissy about the fact that school teachers are expecting it, if we insist that it's too much to ask of them, they will prove us right, won't they?

Part of the big deal of kids going to KG is that they are graduating to a new level of maturity, including controlling themselves at a new level. It's not supposed to be a continuation of how our kids perform in preschool or at home. My thought is that we should show our kids our pride in them by letting them know we expect them to do well with all these new requirements. And parents need to understand that there will be a transition and it won't always be comfortable and that's OK. Just my personal opinion.

[ocracoke]

I wanted to add something. I do have high expectations of my child. I do want her to follow the rules. I do want her to learn. She is 3 and in daycare and the first question she knows she needs to answer every day when I pick her up is if she had a good day or not. She knows what a good day is. She knows the consequences. She no longer needs to be asked the question because she knows it is coming. And she knows that if she lies to me I will find out the truth. I still do not believe that walking a fence is an appropriate method of punishment. And I agree with Brock that the teacher is missing key teaching moments when that is her only response. My child is strong willed, bull-headed and argumentative. She challenges me daily. So I have been reading a ton of parenting books and there is one thing that struck me in one of the books. It said that a child who does wrong is punished. A child who is punished feels bad A child who feels bas has low self esteem. A child with low self esteem does wrong things. See the cycle? So somehow we need to teach our children right from wrong without destroying their self esteem. I don't think walking the fence is doing that.

Samantha

[NeeNee]

Wow!

I haven't read all the replies so maybe this has been put out there. Just go up the chain, knowing your not going to get anywhere with the teacher or principal. You may as well meet with the principal and the teacher at one time. Then go to the superintendent. I personally might just start there as these are very young children and this is supposed to be a wonderful time in their lives. Sorry your little one got "stuck" with such a teacher...if you can call her that!

[MLRJ]

I am with you- as a former K teacher also- I disagree with this- most 5 year olds disobey because they cannot control their impulses or did not listen- not because they are willfully disobeying.

MLRJ

[mksilvermoon]

what brock and ocracoke said - her attitude is so defensive/aggressive with you? an adult? what is she like when she is 'teaching'? can you homeschool for this year if he can't get into another class? i had some nightmare teachers in my youngers years & their comments/punishments and attitudes left deep impressions on me and my classmates. i loved learning so my education did not suffer in the long term, my 2 younger brothers were not so fortunate ...

and the principal sounds just the same as her so who will you turn to if she and you have an 'issue'? and will she make you walk the fence then? crazy ... 5 years old ... and i am a strict parent, but loving ... fear only teaches fear

mk

[JillnChris]

I 100% agree that kids should be expected to behave at the social/emotional level they are at and I'm sure mommytoeli would agree also. I think the problem here is with the punishment being dished out. Just becuase you expect a 5 year old to be able to sit still does not mean you should make them walk the fence for 30 minutes. If her max time were 5 mintues I would not have a problem with this at all. But 30 minutes is way to long.
I kind feel sorry for her because I'm sure all the kids will be hating her in a couple of months if they end up having to walk for the whole recess.

Originally Posted by SKL

I don't know, reading these posts, I am getting the feeling we aren't expecting much from our 5-year-olds. This is a great diversion from a long history.

I begin to understand why it's getting so popular to hold kids back based on a lack of "readiness." If your kid isn't ready to accept being singled out for his misdeeds; isn't ready to make a connection between action and a later punishment; isn't ready to sit still; I don't know. I bet most of these kids could do it if we really expected it of them. But yeah, if we have a hissy about the fact that school teachers are expecting it, if we insist that it's too much to ask of them, they will prove us right, won't they?

Part of the big deal of kids going to KG is that they are graduating to a new level of maturity, including controlling themselves at a new level. It's not supposed to be a continuation of how our kids perform in preschool or at home. My thought is that we should show our kids our pride in them by letting them know we expect them to do well with all these new requirements. And parents need to understand that there will be a transition and it won't always be comfortable and that's OK. Just my personal opinion.

[jules17]

i totally agree, mksilvermoon. i had a mean kindergarten teacher who didn't seem to like kids much. and i was on her "good side" because my mom taught in the same building.

i remember being scared to go to school which was awful because i was so excited to go.

my 1st grade teacher made school wonderful. i still think about ms. brand.

[Waiting4Celeste]

Originally Posted by SKL

I don't know, reading these posts, I am getting the feeling we aren't expecting much from our 5-year-olds. This is a great diversion from a long history.

I begin to understand why it's getting so popular to hold kids back based on a lack of "readiness." If your kid isn't ready to accept being singled out for his misdeeds; isn't ready to make a connection between action and a later punishment; isn't ready to sit still; I don't know. I bet most of these kids could do it if we really expected it of them. But yeah, if we have a hissy about the fact that school teachers are expecting it, if we insist that it's too much to ask of them, they will prove us right, won't they?

Part of the big deal of kids going to KG is that they are graduating to a new level of maturity, including controlling themselves at a new level. It's not supposed to be a continuation of how our kids perform in preschool or at home. My thought is that we should show our kids our pride in them by letting them know we expect them to do well with all these new requirements. And parents need to understand that there will be a transition and it won't always be comfortable and that's OK. Just my personal opinion.

AMEN!

I am not discounting anyone's experience level... but it seems that many people who have commented so strongly against the fence walking have pre-school aged kids. (Maybe I am wrong... I was just looking at signatures and seeing that most listed children who were younger than Kindergarten). Before I personally had a Kindergartener, I had a pie-in-the-sky idea of how my sweet, innocent child would act. He would NEVER be a disruption because, for goodness sakes, I am an educator myself. Boy, did I get THAT wrong!
We CAN'T control what our kids do when they are in a school setting, no matter how much modeling or teaching or preparing we do at home. Kids will be kids. But I just hope that the teachers who are teaching our children can be firm (and loving) enough to help our children become life-long learners. I've seen it myself when a teacher loses control of the classroom - there's NO learning going on when that happens. I don't want my kid in a classroom where the teacher isn't in control.

As for the argument that keeps coming up that it is "humiliating" to walk the fence, I'm sorry, but give me a break. Just hang out with a bunch of Kindergarteners for a DAY and they will find PLENTY of reasons to pick on each other and try to humiliate each other. If a child is constantly missing recess for behavior issues, the consequence isn't appropriate. I know that for my very active, very social child, he would rather do ANYTHING than miss recess, so I would be in favor of it for him because it would make an impact.

I am a "product" of the discipline method of sitting by the fence at recess and I don't have self esteem issues. If I had to sit by the fence at recess and I came home and told my mom about it and she rushed up to school and complained and made a huge deal about it, then maybe I'd have issues. Our kids learn from our reactions to tough situations. My mom's reaction was typically, "Well, it sounds like you deserved it. Change your behavior so you don't have to sit by the fence tomorrow." End of discussion. I learned right away that my mom loved me and expected a lot of me, but she wasn't going to bail me out if I got myself into trouble. That has carried on into my adulthood and looking back, I really appreciate that she taught me how to deal with consequences.

Yes, of course we need to advocate for our children, but sometimes we have to sit back and let them face their own consequences. That will prepare them for being adults someday.

I might suggest that you go to that teacher and ask her to give you examples of what types of behavior warrant the fence walking. (I don't recall you giving specifics in your first post). Maybe she only assigns fence walking to extreme behaviors - not the "getting out of your chair"-type offenses.

I would also try to volunteer in that classroom as often as possible to see how she handles her class. Then, if you notice that she is over-reacting to normal 5/6-year-old behavior, then I'd take some action. Maybe she is playing the whole "Bad-Cop" thing at the beginning of school to try to earn some respect and she really isn't like that with the kids. Who knows.

Thanks for letting me share my opinion. I respect that some of you won't agree with me - and that's fine, I still love y'all anyway!

[Waiting4Celeste]

MommytoEli didn't mention that the kids would be punished for not sitting still or any other behaviors that are typical of 5 & 6 year olds...maybe the teacher is giving that punishment for bigger offenses. -??-

[LadyTink]

This is done at the schools I work at. In the past, teacher would "take recess" from students when they misbehaved. The students would then spend recess inside or sitting in a designed spot outside. Since our students are now required to get a set amount of active time each day, recess can no longer be "taken". Now, the teachers have the students walk at recess, so they still get their active time but are also punished by being away from their friends and not getting to play.

[Mindybeth6]

Here's my story:
In 1st grade I was punished because I rub my hair. Literally, I rub my hair all the time, especially in class because honestly I had un-diagnosed ADHD and needed to "do something" and it comforted me and kept me level. I STILL do it all the time. My hands are always in my hair. It's who I am. That said, my teacher told me that I was no longer allowed to rub my hair. That it was distracting me from my lessons. I was in a Christian school and she told me that I was idolizing my hair instead of worshipping God, and by doing so, rubbing my hair was a sin. She told me if she caught me doing it again, I was going to sit out recess and have to stand by the tree. So, needless to say, I rubbed my hair 10 minutes later and she told me I would be at the tree at recess. The entire recess I had to stand with my nose at that tree. The tree was in the very middle of our playground so all my friends were playing around me the entire time. I can still imagine the whole thing in my mind. How I felt humiliated, how I felt sad, how I felt like I had failed. It was in FIRST grade people. Years ago. Like, 20 years ago. And I remember every detail of it. I came home on the bus, told my mom, who calmly listened and then left me with my dad and went to the school. I don't know WHAT she did at the school, or what was said, you would have to know my mom, she is a soft-spoken, God-serving woman, but I have a feeling that day she lost her cool with good ole' Miss. Reichart (of course I remember her name!). Needless to say when she came home she told me that it was OK to rub my hair if I want to and that I would never be punished for it again.

Now...I know you will read this and say WOW...that was WRONG and CRAZY...at least I hope you will because it was. That was the ONE and ONLY time I was ever, ever in trouble throughout my entire schooling and it's not because I learned to OBEY that day. I was just a good kid. What I learned that day? I learned what it was like to be humiliated in front of your peers, I learned what it was like to be singled out among your classmates, I learned what it was like to feel alienated by someone who was supposed to care about me, my teacher. I was a very shy child that took everything to heart emotionally (still am like that) and it effected me very much. And while the circumstances surrounding my punishment were absurd, I was punished, just like other children. And I can tell you that many of them feel the same way I did that day.

My point? It is NOT healthy to do this to children. While it MAY work for some, it will NOT work for all. I was very sensitive, as is my son, and these types of punishments will be detrimental to him if he has to deal with them at some point. THere are many, many ways to encourage good behavior and create a positive learning environment without utlizing techniques such as fence walking and tree standing. I am 100% against these types of punishment and I can tell you without a doubt you will NOT find them in my classroom. We are taught, over and over and OVER in school that these are NOT GOOD WAYS TO PUNISH A CHILD. I have read countless case studies on this very topic, all of which agree that there are much better, positive ways of dealing with negative behavior. It takes a GOOD teacher to implement such strategies and it takes practice. It was also takes KNOWING your students, and knowing what will work and what will not.

I am not saying that students should not have to be held accountable for their actions, of course they should be!! But there are correct ways of dealing with it and WRONG ways of dealing with it.

JMO

[Waiting4Celeste]

Mindy -
I am so sorry that your teacher obviously did not know you very well, and in turn punished you for something that was obviously self-soothing for you. That is one of those instances where the behavior must have been bothering the adult more than anyone else.

There are ways to discipline a child without humiliating them. Teachers who get to know their students learn how to handle each child and hopefully bring out the best in them.

I have been responding based on MY experiences - both as a student and as a mother of a now 1st Grader. I wouldn't label either of us a particularly sensitive. We both have pretty tough skin, so maybe that's why this method didn't really bother me because I think it would work for Jacob.

I remember a Dr. Phil episode that mentioned that parents need to learn their child's "currency" and use techniques that tie into what will most get their attention. That has stuck with me. For Jacob - taking away recess or taking away TV time makes a BIG impact on him. Sitting him in the corner would do nothing but just rile him up which would lead to more problems. But I KNOW my son and what works.

Some teachers try to "one size fits all" approach and then they put it in writing and force themselves to stick to one discipline method for everyone. That isn't practical.

I understand how everyone can have such varying opinions about this - because we all had different experiences that have shaped us - especially now that we are parents.

What a great discussion. It makes me so thankful that Jacob had such a great Kindergarten teacher. MommytoEli - maybe someone will move away this week and you can switch teachers!!

[crick]

It's funny, because I was thinking the same thing with the ones who don't see 30 min. as an issue for 5 year olds as ones who have younger kids. I have 4 kids 8-11 and I think 30 min. walking is too excessive for a 5 year old for doing 5 year old things.

I just am of the opinion that a consequence should relate to the actual behavior.

My dd had a habit in 2nd grade of finishing her work early and walking around the classroom distracting others. Her teacher called me in frustration saying she couldn't get her to sit still for the remainder of the class time needed. Usually ranged between 15-30 min. that my dd was expected to sit there twiddling her thumbs. I asked her if she gave her anything else to do and she hadn't. I suggested giving her extra work or a book, which worked for awhile but dd just loves to chat and walk around. (and of course I discussed this with dd and told her my expectations. However, I'm not at school to monitor this) My next suggestion? Take her chair away from her. If she's not using it to sit, she doesn't need the chair. To me that related to the behavior she was exhibiting and would get the message across. But nope...she would sit out recess instead and still had plenty of socialization. To me it didn't connect and that is the whole point of a consequence.

Walking the fence for 30 min. because of xx? What does that do to redirect the behavior desired? Nothing.

In all honesty, I think teachers have been reduced to this stupid rule because consequences that actually relate to the behavior are ones that caused more of an uproar from parents who do NOT expect their kids to behave. If a child forgets homework, the consequence should be making up that work during free time for their peers. Or if the child is in 5th grade and up, guess what...missed work means an F and hopefully your teacher will have some extra credit assignments you can do on your own time to help your grades. This stuff doesn't happen anymore though because of the parents who will not expect their child to behave and God Forbid anything happen that could prevent their child from getting straight A's on the road to Harvard.

These are things that matter, imo. Recess? whatever.

[jules17]

Cindy, I think I read your first paragraph incorrectly. I know you (well, from the past weekend) and you don't strike me as the type to negate another's opinion just because I (I'll use myself as an example) don't have children in kindergarten yet.

It is about common sense to me. I don't have a "pie in the sky" idea about my children's behavior at all. I DO have expectations and I DO give guidance. Do I expect things to head south at times? Absolutely.

I called my mom today (who has her Ph.D. in education) and asked her if she thought it was appropriate, either 40 years ago when she started teaching or now. She said absolutely not.

[szumbiel]

I must reply here that sadly I still live in a state--Ohio--that allows corporal punishment (swatting) in schools. I sit on the Center for Effective Discipline board which is an organization that works hard to lobby legislature to pass law to ban the use of corporal punishment in our schools.

I cannot believe in this day and age that we still think hitting kids in schools is effective.

If you live in Ohio, I encourage you to get involved and contact your representatives. No kids should be treated this way! We report people who hit animals with boards yet we empower our schools to hit our children.

Okay off my soapbox.

Sonya