[Larue]

Greetings forum friends - Some recent threads brought this to my attention. And this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. OK. Maybe I should actually use the soapbox smiley guy. But I thought the 2 cents smiley guy was a better option. Because this is after all just my 2 cents.

I want to talk about the cry it out (CIO) method. I think this method is a REALLY bad idea for a newly adopted infant/toddler. Please keep in mind that attachment is a process that takes time. And it doesn't happen overnight. Despite our romanticized ideas of what it should be. And all those "Adoption Stories" happy endings. We can't expect these children to just blend into our lives. I feel we need to blend into theirs!!!

I also believe that we need to EARN their trust. And we need to do everything that we can to help them feel secure and meet their emotional needs. Helping a child feel safe and meeting their emotional needs does not equate to spoiling them. Including if they need to be soothed to sleep for awhile.

I could go on and on about me, and my sleep experiences with Sabrina. Which included co-sleeping for several months. Which I got a lot of flak for. But I am interested in your thoughts and experiences. What do you think about the CIO method? What are your sleep experiences? What alternatives to CIO did you use? What worked?

Interested in your insights and experiences!!!

[arepa]

Our daughter was 6.5 months old when she came home. We do not think she ever slept in a bed, but rather in a swing or bouncy seat. She would only fall asleep propped on a pillow. The first month or so she did not want to be rocked to sleep at all. She had a horrible time falling to sleep. We co-slept with our sons and tried that. It did not work either, she needed to be propped up. She (like our sons' did) sleeps in a crib in our bedroom. ( For those wondering about being intimate with your spouse-a bed is boring after 8 years of marriage -go wild!) After about 2 months we put her in the bed awake. I stayed in the room and folded clothes or found something else to do, and she put herself to sleep. She cried for maybe 2 minutes at the most. She saw I was there. We still do it like this today and she does not cry at all, she looks at books I put in the crib and then falls asleep (reading to her before bedtime helps as well, for the future too-my son is an accelerated reader at school ) If she wakes up at night we are there and she goes back to sleep.

I want to add one thing. No one on this board is a bad parent. Please be nice to each other. Threads like this always seem to leave some with hurt feelings. Just because you do things different does not make you a bad mother.

[ej-momtobe]

I don't think that the CIO method is neccessarly the best approach, but I don't think it is 100% bad either. Some kids just won't go to sleep when they are fussy without crying, or won't stay asleep. Having a child that is sleep deprived day and night certainly cannot help with healthy attachment.

We used a modified version of CIO on a few occasions after DS was home a few months. He learned very quickly how to put himself to sleep and now is a great sleeper. When he sleeps well he is much happier throughout the day, eats better, and has better focus...and now if he does cry at night I know something is wrong. And, bonding/attachment is going well.

As with a lot of things, moderation and parent's instincts should guide how each person handles things with their family. Each family and child is different. The are very few absolutes.

[gwenrenee007]

I totally agree with you Larue. At the risk of sounding harsh I cringe everytime I hear that someone is doing it. Don't get me wrong, whatever you want to do is your decision, but I could never do it.

Mia is still co sleeping with us and we also cuddle her to sleep for naps and sneak out when she is sleeping. I don't know how long we will do this, but I know the CIO method is NOT for us. I did read an article in the Adoptive parents magazine about the Ferber method, and I plan on doing that in the future. I don't know when we are going to start, but I think it will be a while. I have also read that it is NOT the cry it out method, but I am still skeptical. My dd crying for me is not something I can bear right now even if I get to reassure her. (she has only been home for a little over 2 months)

For instance today I attempted to take a shower (bad mama) my dd was happy in her bouncer watching Dora (bad mama again). I hopped in the shower and I thought she was ok, but when I shut off the water I could hear her wailing. So I quickly ran to her and she was absolutely terrified that I wasn't there when she needed me. Needless to say she was very clingy all day and I should just not take showers I guess

I can also say that we haven't had many really bad attachment problems with her after the honeymoon phase, but I still can't imagine doing it.

I hope I haven't ticked anyone off This is only my opinion.

[Larue]

Thanks EJ! I agree that a modified version of CIO may work great for some kiddos. I'll have to explore that!

Originally Posted by ej-momtobe

I don't think that the CIO method is neccessarly the best approach, but I don't think it is 100% bad either. Some kids just won't go to sleep when they are fussy without crying, or won't stay asleep. Having a child that is sleep deprived day and night certainly cannot help with healthy attachment.

We used a modified version of CIO on a few occasions after DS was home a few months. He learned very quickly how to put himself to sleep and now is a great sleeper. When he sleeps well he is much happier throughout the day, eats better, and has better focus...and now if he does cry at night I know something is wrong. And, bonding/attachment is going well.

As with a lot of things, moderation and parent's instincts should guide how each person handles things with their family. Each family and child is different. The are very few absolutes.

[Tamiswaiting]

Wellll, I haven't done CIO per se because of the exact reasons you stated. Kevin has only been home 2 weeks, so not much experience here, but this is how it has worked for me...At first I walked with him back and forth, forth and back and it worked the first couple of nights (well, over a week if you count the time in Guat). Then he was getting angry and really throwing a temper tantrum so I held him tightly to my chest and talked to him in a soothing voice until he relaxed. This went on for a few days. Then I laid him in his crib while he was awake, kissed him, rubbed his forehead, told him I loved him and said, "time to go to sleep" and walked away to the other side of the room behind a curtain that divides the room (temporary setup until I put my addition on) and watched him. The first time I did this, he cried for 5 minutes and I went back to him, touched him, did all the above again and walked away again. He cried for less than a minute and went to sleep. I did it again the next day and the crying was less (BTW...this isn't just nighttime...he also naps 3 times a day, so this was very repetitious for him...4 times a day total). By now, he rarely cries at all when he goes down (knocking furiously on wood here). He wakes up with a smile on his face and his arms up to me. I feel very, very lucky. I also know it's very, very early and things could change quickly. I'm praying I'm doing right by him and that he'll continue adjusting well. Sometimes he'll make eye contact and give big sloppy kisses and other times not. He looks for me when I leave the room, but also will go to almost anyone. I have a long road ahead and I hope I don't screw it up.

BOY! Did I ramble, or what?!

[Larue]

Thanks arepa...for the reminder. You rock lady!

I do not want to suggest anyone is a bad parent. If you have used CIO sucessfully, I would love to hear about that too. As I said - this is just my 2 cents. And we spent 9 months in PGN, and Sabrina was a toddler when she came home. And I started fostering her at 12 months after she was removed from her foster home for neglect. Much more complicated then the typical Guatemalan adoption case.

Love to hear all perspectives!!!

Originally Posted by arepa

Our daughter was 6.5 months old when she came home. We do not think she ever slept in a bed, but rather in a swing or bouncy seat. She would only fall asleep propped on a pillow. The first month or so she did not want to be rocked to sleep at all. She had a horrible time falling to sleep. We co-slept with our sons and tried that. It did not work either, she needed to be propped up. She (like our sons' did) sleeps in a crib in our bedroom. ( For those wondering about being intimate with your spouse-a bed is boring after 8 years of marriage -go wild!) After about 2 months we put her in the bed awake. I stayed in the room and folded clothes or found something else to do, and she put herself to sleep. She cried for maybe 2 minutes at the most. She saw I was there. We still do it like this today and she does not cry at all, she looks at books I put in the crib and then falls asleep (reading to her before bedtime helps as well, for the future too-my son is an accelerated reader at school ) If she wakes up at night we are there and she goes back to sleep.

I want to add one thing. No one on this board is a bad parent. Please be nice to each other. Threads like this always seem to leave some with hurt feelings. Just because you do things different does not make you a bad mother.

[Mindybeth6]

I, too, cringe when I see CIO. I was not with my son, and am not with my daughter a fan of CIO. We didn't practice it here. Although Mikayla didn't have trouble going to sleep initially, she used to, and still does, wake up at night for comfort and or a bottle which is comfort as well. It used to be three times a night, then two, and now it's off and on with one. We used a modified CIO method. We let her fuss for awhile and then would go in and comfort her and then leave. If she started again I let it go for a few minutes and then repeated. I repeated until she went to sleep but never did she get the all out wailing, choking cries. I never let it get to that. I only let her do the fussy cry that would have TURNED into the crazy hysteria cry had I not gone in to soothe her. It took a lot fo time, months, but she is secure now and doesn't need that nightime comfort anymore. She does on occasion but it's not the constant that it was. I know that people have it far worse and I can't honestly SEE where people would get to the point of frustration where they just said CRY IT OUT. It can be overwhelming and I understand that. Alec has colic as a newborn and although it's not the same attachment issues....the crying and sleeping issues were similar for him. THere were times when I had to just go on the front porch and breathe because the crying really get to you after awhile. But then I would settle down, go back in, and comfort him as much as needed again. It was grueling.
Hugs

[Michelle Smiles]

In theory, I think most of us would be against CIO...however reality often rears its head in an ugly way. I was sure I would never use CIO...but there were a couple of times that I had to walk away and let her cry for a few minutes because I was on the edge of losing my mind. It certainly wasn't a method that we used often but once in awhile that was what had to happen for a bit. It never worked to get her to go to sleep...it just made her mad. But I would take 5 minutes, breath deeply, and then go back with my patience restored to pick her up.

It reinforced my idea that you should never judge unless you've lived in someone else's shoes.

[Truthdefenders]

I'm with you, Laura. These kids are like newborns when they come home. We would never leave a newborn to cry it out. They need to learn to trust us in the most basic way. Then they can begin to learn other lessons.

[Tamiswaiting]

Originally Posted by Mindybeth6

she used to, and still does, wake up at night for comfort and or a bottle which is comfort as well. It used to be three times a night, then two, and now it's off and on with one.
Hugs

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention this....Kevin was getting up 3 times a night to take a few ounces of bottle...I think for comfort. He's down to two times a night and may take a sip or two, but I think it's really about reassurance because I go to his crib with the bottle, he sucks on it...sometimes for just seconds and then (oh, this is just too cute) rolls on his side to go back to sleep. I don't know why I never expected a baby to sleep on their side, but it's so cute. Anyway. I don't think he's actually hungry, but wants comforting. I'm hoping that he wakes up less and less as we move forward.

[GuatMommy2Be]

We won't let M cio... however, there were times where Mommy needed to say, take a shower where I would push the pack and play to the door, talk to her, sing to her, etc. Other then that, no way.

[RGirl]

I'm not a fan of CIO - and I don't think I would be if I had a biological child either. (Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and what works for me might not work for someone else.)

When I went on my pick-up trip, Willow was 6.5 months old. I had visited 3 times prior to that trip. At pick-up, she was still on a newborn-type schedule - waking several times during the night for a bottle. She also would not have anything to do with the cribs at the Westin and instead slept in her stroller at the hotel. I just went with this during the week we were in Guatemala. I could tell, however, that the waking for bottles was not really because she was hungry as she didn't eat much. She ate poorly during the day as well, which must have made her at least hungry enough to wake up.

When we got home, I started using the Baby Whisperer method. After the first two nights at home, she no longer needed or wanted a bottle in the night. I put this down to (1) I got more food into her during the day; (2) I gave her a "dream feed" right before I went to bed; and (3) when she did wake up, I went right in to her and comforted her - first just patting her and then picking her up if she did not settle. Soon, she no longer needed the picking up, and soon after that, she would usually settle herself before I ever got up to go to her.

Most of the time now, she sleeps through the night completely. Occasionally, she will wake, but the only reason I know this is because she is just around the corner in the same room with me - I don't think I would even hear her over a monitor if she were in another room. She settles herself. That is not to say that there is not occasionally a night when she wakes up and gets truly upset - but I am always right there to soothe and comfort her.

[joepegcamp]

With our son there is a distinct difference between "fussing" and "crying."

When he's falling asleep, he fusses. When he wakes up in the middle of the night, he fusses. We let him "fuss it out." When he first came home, we tried comforting him at every fuss. It didn't work. We'd always end up waking him up.

Crying is a different thing altogether. Once he starts crying, we're there in a flash. We pat his cute little behin. We rock him. We sing to him. We give him a bottle. Whatever he needs.

I think this really depends on the kid. As new parents, we must listen closely to the cries of our children. They'll tell us what they need.

[Larue]

I want to say - taking a breather for a few minutes is not the CIO method. We have all done that. And many folks practice true CIO very successfully. I am not judging anyone. I am very interested in all perspectives. I am also very familiar with how childhood trauma is stored in the body. From a very young age. And how it can manifest as a teenager or adult. Maybe that makes me much more sensitive to this topic.

Any other ideas?!?!