[TenleysDaddy]

I was just reading on Guatadopt.com about how birth mothers are selling babies (edited to remove legal discussion regarding an ongoing legal situation)

I don't mean to demonstrate a lack of faith in the system but I can't help but wonder how accurate that/those statements are.
My heart says "no way dude, shut up and drink your morning coffee and move on with your day" but my mind says "Hmmm, I wonder".
While in Guatemala I did hear a lot of "our agency called us and said we have a sibling of your adopted child are you interested?" I know that all systems in the world at one point in time exploited by a few idiots and that it would be naive to think that every single adoption in Guatemala is 100% legitimate. I could live with this if someone told me "sure, this happens but VERY rarely". I couldn't live with the accusation that this couple in the report says "whether you want to believe it or not these babies are being sold to American couples". Is this a matter semantics of the word "sold" or does she imply that the system as a whole is buying children from birthmom's.
I'm in process now and when I look at pictures of my little one on the fridge, my wallet, walls and desk my world stops, I get butterfly's in my stomach and as my eyes well with joy I see innocence, purity and a fathers undying love. I don't want anything or anyone being corrupt to taint how my daughter has come into my life and the experience of how she came to be in my home.
So, I'm asking.....can anyone give me an idea of how often this corruption occurs in system.
Do we even know? Can we even know? Any of you out there done any research? What are your thoughts?
Please forgive me for being a party pooper. You all always provide me with a great amount of joy in your post and your happy anticipation of getting home with the little ones. I died laughing at Fridays Dance party yesterday....ha you guys are nuts, but in a good way. Thanks for the laughter and at times the tears.
Scotty

[jeannecr]

I'm sure this sad circumstance does occur, but all you can do is try to choose an ethical agency and attorney. No one really knows how often this is the birthmother's motivation.

[TenleysDaddy]

Thanks for the reply......so very true your statements.

I did a ton on our agency and even talked with others who had adopted before with them. I also did a fair amount of research on our attorney and found her to be one of the best in credentials in the current system.

Thanks,

[Jecca]

You know, everything you say is true. More than likely, there are a great variety of motivations behind a birthmother's decision to relinquish a baby. We were one of those families that got a call about a birthsibling, and we happily accepted the referral. We also recently found out that our kids have another (slightly older) birth sibling who was adopted by another family. Do I question our birthmother's motivations? Yes. Do I care? Only a little bit. Systemically, I would like to know that each and every adoption is legitimate. But I also consider how adoptions work in this country, and I realize that no system is perfect (or anywhere near it).

In the end, regardless of why they were born or the circumstances surrounding their births, these children need homes and families to love them. If their birthmothers can't (or won't) provide that, then I feel lucky to be able to.

[TenleysDaddy]

Jessica,
Good point. I like what you said about no matter what the motivation is a life was brought into the world and destiny has put them in your home.......enough said right?
I didn't really think about that...thanks.
S

[BobMiami]

LOL, Scott, maybe you should have awakened and had a stiff drink instead of your morning coffee!

Your thoughts are very poignant. I don't admit this, but every day somewhere in the back of my mind, I think of my son and the circumstances of our becoming a family and realize that I cannot be entirely sure. It is not a happy thought.

But I agree with Jessica, entirely. And I do think we should be skeptical and do our research.

But I wish you and your wife could be here with me right now. We haven't gotten our Saturday rolling quite yet. My little guy is on the floor pouring over a coffee table book someone gave me with elaborate pictures of fish. We are having so much fun, and I am so happy with how he has grown, how much he has learned and how happy he is.

I don't know the circumstances of his birth. I do know he was an older kid and there were questions of whether he would ever have been adopted. I know I had to work harder than many people to prove that everything was on the up and up.

I'm pretty confident that everything was okay, but I'll never know with 100% certainty. But I do know with 100% certainty that there was a boy in Guatemala who needed a home and a loving family. And he certainly has one.
Bob

[arthymom]

Last summer when we were on the fence about adopting from Guatemala, we did a lot of soul-searching and research.

When we accepted a referral, we did so KNOWING that payments to birthmothers are a possibility.

We are still around and have since learned a lot about the way things work down there.

Everything happens down there. Adoption happens for a number of reasons:

1. Abandonment because of poverty; baby is "left" somewhere
2. Relinquishment of a first baby because the birthmother realizes that she can not keep this baby
3. Relinquishment of a first, or more usual the next baby because there is money involved in the transaction; help by the lawyer in one form or another

To say that #3 rarely happens in Guatemala is naive. I personally believe that some agencies either don't know or turn a blind eye to payments since they know that many families here would be upset by it. I am sure that there are also agencies out there that won't work with a lawyer/facilitator or hogar that gives money to birthmothers. So if that is a concern for you, do your homework as best as you can.

For a long time, I thought that #3 was really wrong. But now I realize that #3 is really similar to #s 1 and 2. The reality is that Guatemala is a very poor country with a turbulent 20th Century history. If birthmothers have babies as a way to make some money to feed their other kids, that is a larger socioeconomic problem that is really tragic. I don't blame them.

By the way, I am fluent in Spanish and over the course of the year, I have been able to have conversations with various folks involved in this process. I am not making any of what I just said up.

Best,

[Gatos]

The term "payment" is interesting. Domestic birthmothers are frequently given money for their rent, food, medical, car payments, etc. I don't have a problem with that. It is in everyone's best interest to support her in any way they can. Perhaps the birthmothers in Guatemala are receiving some money. That doesn't seem very different than what happens right here in the U.S.

[gwenrenee007]

I totally agree with Gatos. The US wants Guatemala to be Hague compliant, but is our domestic adoption system Hague compliant? I think not.

I can't imagine a woman carrying a child for 9 months, birthing that child and not carrying about the child. I am sure in remote circumstances it happens, but no matter what the birth mother's motiviations are we can't deny that she loved our children. I can't imagine what it is like to place a child for adoption in a foreign country and to know you will probably never see that child again. The pain these women have gone through and will continue to go through to the day they die must be unbearable.

I know in my case our birthmother chose adoption before our dd was born. I know in the DNA picture she is holding my dd and looks like she really loves our dd and I hope that she does.

You can also ask your agency/attorney if you can meet the birth mother at pickup. This may put your mind at ease or it could cause more questions. We are going to and I don't know how that meeting will go, but we would like to stay in contact with her no matter what motivated her to place our dd for adoption. If she recieved some sort of money for it to feed my dd bio siblings then I have no problem with that. If she was doing it to buy a Mercedes then I would have a problem with it.

[Isabo]

Originally Posted by TenleysDaddy

Jessica,
Good point. I like what you said about no matter what the motivation is a life was brought into the world and destiny has put them in your home.......enough said right?
I didn't really think about that...thanks.
S

No, I don't think enough has been said. This conversation has ignored the issue of coercion completely. I have read a lot of articles about adoption in Guatamala and other countries. In addition to the reasons given by others here, Mothers are also losing their children because of fraud and coercion by baby brokers. So it isn't destiny when that child and his/her mother are separated and the child is placed in a new home, it is criminal, even if the aparents don't know what happened. Coercion and fraud go on in the United States too, so it is not surprising that it is happening in a third world country. I relinquished my son in 1980, and I can guarantee you that I was coerced and lied to in order for the agency to get their hands on my son. The only reason I lost my son was shame - not because I was unfit, too young (I was almost 18), or because I was in any way addicted to anything or an abuser. I was and am a good person who got browbeaten. Do you think this doesn't happen (women getting shamed into losing their children) in Guatamala? Turning a blind eye, calling it destiny and saying it doesn't matter what the motivations are is NOT OK in my book. My son's adoptive parents hid their head in the sand too. Ignoring the wrong didn't make it go away.

I believe God cried when I lost my child. There were no angels dancing in heaven when we were separated, although I'm sure the dancing bananas were going wild.

[gwenrenee007]

Quote : Isabo

although I'm sure the dancing bananas were going wild.

I have NEVER been so angered by anything I have ever read on here.

The original post was asking about baby selling not coersion.

I'm sorry that in your situation you were coersed.

As I stated before MY daughter's birth mother started the adoption plan well before she was born. Many mother's cannot feed their children that is why they are placed for adoption. I am sure there are cases where coersion does happen.

Do you even know the system in Guatemala? Probably not. So read some posts educate yourself and then post. FYI - the birth mother signs off on the adoptios 4 times, has an interview with a social worker who is probably anti-adoption to be sure she wasn't coersed.

[ej-momtobe]

Originally Posted by Isabo

No, I don't think enough has been said. This conversation has ignored the issue of coercion completely.

The reason that this conversation has ignored coercion is because that is not what this thread is about. The thread is about specific statements that bmoms receive payments. Discussions about how bmom feel (or are told) that this is their best option to feed their family are relevant. I don't think the original posted intented the thread to be a discussion of every possible corruption or ethical problem with adoption.

[Jecca]

Hmm. I think it's possible that coercion does happen, but I certainly don't think it's the norm, or even a common occurrence. I think it's much more likely that women are shamed for relinquishing - not for wanting to keep their babies. Generally speaking, Guatemala (as a whole) is NOT pro-adoption. Are there people there making money in the world of adoptions? Yes. But it's also true that many women are ostracized by their families and communities for having made adoption plans, especially in communities where it is believed we Americans adopt their children to sell off their body parts. Many of our birthmothers have hidden their pregnancies to prevent this.

Like I said, the system isn't perfect, and hopefully the upcoming changes will improve the transparency of the process. But I think it's unfair to imply that coercion is the norm.

[Isabo]

I was also responding to #7 post which discusses the reasons adoptions take place in Guatamala. I should have made that clear. I am sorry if people are angry because I brought up coercion, but expectant moms accepting money and coercion go hand in hand. Mothers in the U.S. take money for expenses because that is how things work now, but it doesn't mean that some of those women aren't pressured. Expectant mothers very well may take money from baby brokers, but they may be taking the money after the relinquishment is pressed upon them. I HAVE educated myself about adoption in Guatamala. I have read extensively about it, as I have read extensively about adoption in many countries, including the United States. I have had 27 years to read and educate myself about adoption since I lost my son. Unfortunately, we didn't have the Internet and well stocked adoption libraries when I was pregnant, or I would have read extensively then. I AM a person who educates myself. I have a Bachelors of Science, a Masters in Teaching and a Juris Doctor. I spoke last year with a family court judge after a CLE I attended, and I asked her very pointed questions about domestic adoption and how much she educates herself about the facts in each case before she grants the relinquishment. Her answer? She relies upon the word of the adoption agency or the attorney representing the mother. She thought that questioning the mother about her decision would be implying that the mother had not thought out her decision. I talked to her about how coercion works in adoption and how many of the woman who I know who lost children had social workers speaking for them and forcing their will upon them. I am sure that this happens in Guatamala and other countries too.

The original poster stated, "I don't want anything or anyone being corrupt to taint how my daughter has come into my life and the experience of how she came to be in my home. So, I'm asking.....can anyone give me an idea of how often this corruption occurs in system." Do you really think he should only cares about one kind of corruption or do you think he should care about all kinds of corruption that may have tainted how his daughter came into his life? I think he cares about all types of corruption, but hey that's just MY opinion.

So yes, I educated myself before I posted, and my comments are directly relevant to what is being discussed. I am sorry that anyone is offended, but not all adoptions are on the up and up, and ignoring that is offensive too.

[Quesita]

I know I need to take a deep breath before even allowing myself to address this topic coherently.

I think that, sadly, there is often a large grey area between “voluntarily relinquishing” a baby and “selling a baby.” I think that in the case of Guatemala, poverty is the motivating factor for most bmom’s. Perhaps if they decide to put their baby up for adoption shortly after conception, they are offered milk and healthy food to eat for the duration of their pregnancy. And maybe they share that milk and healthy food with the children they already have, who they have trouble feeding when they are working, and know they will not be able to feed once their pregnancy interferes with their work. Maybe they get medical care during their pregnancies, and maybe that is the first preventative medical care they have received in their lives. Maybe they get reimbursed for busfare to get to appointments with lawyers or doctors or social workers, and maybe they walk rather than spending the money on the bus.

And what if, after the child is born, she wants to change her mind? Would she have to pay back the cost of the food she received, and the cost of the doctor’s bills, and the cost of that busfare? What if she didn’t have the resources to pay that back? Would that constitute coercion?

I want to thank Isabo for her post. Yeah, it really stung to read. We know that for many of us, the joy of our adoption is the source of pain for a family far away, even if the bmom made the decision without coercion, and for all the right reasons. I think it is also important to remember that as we read all of the press about how evil Guatemalan adoptions are, we see very little press on the flaws in the adoption system in this country.

I also want to thank everyone else who is participating in this discussion. It is hard, painful and complex, and there are no easy answers. All we can do is educate ourselves, and move forward with our plans and our lives with the confidence that we learned all we could, and act consistently with our own belief systems.

Edit: I feel confident that I did my research, and I am delighted that Liana's bmom has agreed to maintain contact with me. I am lucky. She is literate, which many Guatemalan bmom's aren't, so we can write letters. I speak and write Spanish, and I am a frequent traveler, who hopes to bring my daughter to Guatemala to meet her. That is my reality, consistant with my beliefs and desires. Each of us shares a common set of experiences in this process, but there are many many differences in our circumstances.