[Flops]

Hi:

This post is for the long timers who have had their children home a year or two.

I've got a big problem and it seems to be getting worse instead of better and they aren't four years old yet. I was wondering if any of you have had these types of personality problems with your children.

My sons are rude, sullen and very disrespectful to anyone who isn't a family member or close friend. If they know you they're great, but if they don't and you speak to them you're liable to get a curse word. (They both have learned these nice phrases at their daycare.) They will not smile or be friendly to anyone who is nice to them when we are in public. Just this past weekend, at a Dickens Christmas Festival Obie layed an extended middle finger and a curse word on a poor woman and her son about his age that got into our horse drawn wagon for a ride through the festival. Talk about embarrassing. He then kept glaring at the little blue eyed blond boy with his piercing black eyes till the kid started to cry. It was awful. And its the same at their daycare.They will only interact with certain kids and will totally ignore or be very rude.

I was just curious if anyone elses child has behaved in this manner. They haven't been diagnosed with any type of "behavior" problems but I'm beginning to think they may have an antisocial personality disorder.

It's wierd because they will usually do anything I tell them to do except be sociable and wear their seat belts in the car. They seem very fearful of both of these circumstances. These two issues lead me to believe at some point in their lives they may have been left alone possibly in public and restrained in some type of a seat. I don't know if they are just acting out now or what.

I guess it's a double edged sword so to speak - it's good that they are not overly friendly with strangers but then it seems to be holding them back in their overall social development. I don't know maybe I'm just too worried.

Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.

[lmvsmom]

Flops, my heart breaks for you in reading your post. And to have to deal with it as a single parent probably makes it even harder. My son is younger than yours, so I don't have personal experience. But I would definitely have your boys assessed by a professional. I think if you don't get professional help now, you will definitely see things get worse (not to mention, you will lose friends and your boys won't have any s).

Best wishes to you and please, let us know what you decide.

[DPline]

I am so sorry Flops! I can't even imagine how difficult this is for you. I second lmvsmom's suggestion of a professional evalutation, by someone who has experience with adopted children. Their adoption may be completely unrelated, but you may have a great point about something in their past triggering their behaviors.

What is the consequece of these behaviors? I know you have had problems with the car seats for a while. Is there possibility of another day care situation? I know it is hard to control what kids pick up/say but a daycare situation where this language is being used regularly, would concern me too.

You and your boys will be in my prayers!

[b_fettes]

Hi, I have no professional back-ground in this but I have read some parenting books. I personally would treat this as a discipline issue. We expect our son to say a quick hello only ,not the have to answer every question a grown-up asks as that can be too much pressure. So it was a case of rewards and punishments if he did not say this quick hello. It was a behaviour we expected in our family and so we used these techniques to reinforce it. That said, children from other cultures are given in my opinion more attention than other children and that is very hard for them to deal with.
best of luck
Mary

[praying4rlittl1]

Wow, that is a toughie...

My first thought is 1)What are the consequences when they say the "f" word? 2)There is no way I'd have them at that daycare after that.

I know it's easy for us to say things when it's not us in the situation, but I guess I'd definitely treat it as a discipline issue.

[CurlysGirly]

My heart is breaking for you right now, Flops. I would think about looking towards a pediatrician that specializes in adoptions. For example, at our Childrens hospital that doctor has a team that works with her including a behavioral pychologist. They would be able to direct you on how to handle these situations. For me it is easier to see someone for help like this instead of reading it from a book.

[Mandy4President]

I'm so sorry! That is tough. I hope you don't mind me jumping in because I'm going to talk about my sons who are bio...

Both of my boys DO NOT talk to people when they come up to them. EVEN FAMILY. They don't use curse words or anything, they just don't acknowledge their presence at all. My boys are 5 & 7. The seven year old is getting better at it because I have stressed over and over that they WILL respond to someone when they walk up to them. The hard thing is that I don't really care if they don't talk to people who are absolute strangers, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but if you are standing there and saying "Say hello" and they don't, that's really annoying. That's what my boys do (and my daughter is beginning to do the same thing, she's 3). I really do think that it's a personality thing. The curse thing, well, that's really annoying that the day care can't control what is going on enough that they are hearing that. I think that is something I would address with them. And the cursing thing, in my opinion, is something tht needs to be disciplined.

It wouldn't hurt to get them evaluated, but I really believe that it's probably just the age of your son combined with his personality. Keep us posted!!

[meg1]

Hi
What discipline do you use when they use words or gestures that you do not like? I could not tell from your note that there were any reprecussions from the behavior in the wagon such as a time out or not being allowed to go on the ride.
I agree with others that you may need more help in dealing with the situation - the boys have been through alot and are also likely trying to find their boundries.

[Shoshana]

Flops, I second the suggestion that you have the boys evaluated. Start with the pediatrician, and ask for a referral to a child psychologist. If he/she doesn't seem to want to give you the referral, insist.

From what you're describing, this does not sound like a discipline issue. By the way, antisocial personality does not occur in children so young.

[tricecm]

This is really tough. I'm sorry. I would definitely have them evaluated. I have read (and experienced) that sometimes we allow adopted kids to "get away" with things because we worry that their behavior came from some deep seeded problem caused by something in their adoption. I've also read the same thing about children of divorce.
So, if we believe that these things came from some disturbance they have experienced, we need to get professional help.

Professional help with assist in distinguishing between what are the discipline issues (and how best to deal with them) and what are those deep seeded problems (and how to deal with those).

Make the appointment today! Good luck.

[MamaS]

My daughter fought and resisted the seatbelt from the time she arrived (at age 3) from El Salvador. We were given information (LATER) that she had been left alone in the home tied to a table every day while family members went off to work and school. Also, that the discipline used in the home was beating with a belt.

[rjvpmn]

I can only tell you my experience with my son. He has Sensory issues ( autistic spectrum but very mild) He has social issues. Carol gray writes social stories and you can read those to them to see if it helps. My son at that age had a very hard time making eye contact and socializing unless he knew them well. He has gotten a ton better but we did OT therapy and we have worked over and over with it. In school he gets some help with the social cues stuff. Other than that I dont know what to tell you but my heart goes out to you because social problems are tough. I think sometimes more tough on the parents because it is embarrassing.
I wish you luck.

[shelbydog]

A few things pop to mind. First of all, you mentioned they are in daycare. Are they comfortable/social in daycare? My son is 4.5 and had a hard time expressing himself in social situations, esp. when more than one child was present. He also has sensory issues and some delays, and he gets OT and for him, making friends and social interaction has been something we have had to help teach him. He tends to stay on the sidelines and watch, or misinterpret other kids' reactions. Example: a child says hello. Evan says hello REALLY quietly under his breath with a scowl on his face...the child walks away and Evan gets upset saying, "He doesn't hear me!!" I would try 2 things.

One - role play at home. Use dolls, or their favorite toys. They are old enough to understand that being nice is polite and if they are rude, people will not want to be around them. Talk to them about how their behaviors make others feel.

Two - I would arrange playdates and as many activities (low key - not big groups) so they can practice. They may also feel "stronger" together since they are together vs. only children (hope that makes sense). I wonder if playdates with them separate would help? Then they wouldn't have each other as an alliance.

My son also reacts strangely to certain things. Just today we were picking Mia up and a boy was playing with a toy and Evan had this "exorcist" voice toward the boy for NO reason at all. I think part of it is age, experimentation. But if it is really bad I would treat it as a skill that has to be practiced and learned. Good luck!

[guatmom4113]

We just brought Maria home. She is 10 years old and was in foster care for most of her life apparently. It was a good home. She was loved. But she had one little issue. When she would get mad she would give people the finger or say F you in English. I was agast at this. For awhile, I was in denial, disbelief. It mostly happened with my teenage son and his friends. Well, I heard her/saw her with my own ears and eyes. I had a talk with her about it right after, and I brought the subject up again casually during a good night story. She had a funny reason why she did it. She said the family she lived with was crazy, even the four month old baby gave people the finger. I had to laugh silently to myself. I decided that after our talk I was going to teach her some altnerative behavior like sticking out her tongue. I thought this would be better than the other and she would outgrow or we could wean her of this later. Well, since our last conversation she has not excersised this behavior. I think she was embarrassed by it when I brought it up when she least expected it. Your children are quite young. I am not a shrink or specialist, but I always heard that a child develops a consience by the age of 9. Your children are still developing this. I would make sure they know this is a very bad choice and if necessary teach them alternative behaviors. I used to read a book about manners to my son and he seemed to enjoy it. Emphasize that having friends is important and teach them how to be a friend. Best wishes.