[BrandyHagz]

Ok, ya’ll know me…at least most of you do I think. I’m Brandy, your friendly moderator.

In an effort to verse myself on the ins and outs of adoption from Guatemala – I have some question that I hope some of you kind folks would take a few minutes to answer for me.

One thing I’ve noticed recently is the ever increasing timeframe it takes to get the ever-so-coveted “GCBC” – my question is simply this: Once you have exited PGN, the adoption is complete, right? The “Protocolo” is issued which, from what I understand, is the same as the “adoption decree”, correct? So, once the protocolo is issued, isn’t the adoption, in a sense, final? At this point, the child is yours…correct?

Having said all of that…if a parent wanted to go down and visit/foster/take possession at this time, that would be totally within the legal parents rights, right? After all, once the protocolo is issued, the adoption is complete on the Guatemalan side – even if the amended birth certificate has not been issued…am I correct in this assumption?

Ok, so, if the parent were to go down between PGN exit and GCBC issuance – could they do some of the legwork to ease the workload of their attorney and his assistants I ask, because I assume the only reason why he needs the POA is so he can act on your behalf – and if you are there in person, can’t you act for yourself?

Again, just trying to wrap my head around all of this…so for a recap – my questions are:

Once one exist from PGN – that’s it, the adoption is final, right?

If the adoption is final – that’s your child, right? So you can, at that time, collect the child – even tho the final steps are required in order to bring him/her to the US – mom/dad could live in Guatemala until those steps are completed, yes?

And then finally – I know there is someone on the forum who has had to do a lot of legwork for her own adoption (I think it is CSW, but I could be wrong) – can the parents step in and do some of the final steps? For example – pick up GCBC – take the file to the embassy for pink and complete the required appointments?

Of course I’m being hypothetical – I just like to know these things incase I am ever in a position to have to respond to questions like these…which does happen from time to time as the moderator.

Ok, that’s it – I look forward to learning from all of you.

[moelladeville]

Brandy,
Great questions, and I'm waiting for the experts to pipe in with answers. That said, I am not one, despite being in this for the third time. I know only that even though my second son was legally mine, my agency wouldn't let me have him until his case was "pink." But remember that's the same controlling attorney who will only let visiting parents see their children for an hour -- dressed in full surgical garb! I look forward to the answers, and sorry I'm not much help.
Marjorie

[astra]

I believe the adoption is final after the firstmom signs off for the last time, after PGN!

It might be hard to do some of the legwork if you don't know Spanish, but I do suppose you could hire some one

I really wanted to fly down and stay with my son, for the rest of our time waiting for the GCBC and PINK, and my agency said No! I was so excited to hear we were out of PGN I didn't press the issue. I've been thinking about asking again if it would be okay because I really want to be there with him.

[BrandyHagz]

Is the Protocolo issued after the final sign off?

[rosenfeldwest]

Yes Brandy, the Protocolo is the PGN document with the **'s signature. The "Opina" gets issued first. This is the document that states PGN's approval.

[Bassette]

I will try to take a stab at this. As best I can recollect,.....

Originally Posted by BrandyHagz

Again, just trying to wrap my head around all of this…so for a recap – my questions are:

Once one exist from PGN – that’s it, the adoption is final, right?

The protocolo is organized after PGN and at that point the adoption is final in Guatemala. Some states do not recognize foreign adoption without a readoption process in the home state. It does take a few weeks after PGN to prepare BC, passport, pink slip and visa. Without a backlog it can average about 4 weeks. Guatemala City BCs (GCBC) are running behind right now so the timeline is increased for children born in that city.

Originally Posted by BrandyHagz

If the adoption is final – that’s your child, right? So you can, at that time, collect the child – even tho the final steps are required in order to bring him/her to the US – mom/dad could live in Guatemala until those steps are completed, yes?

Once the protocolo is completed then as far as Guatemala is concerned the child is, in fact, yours/ours. There is a time between protocolo and visa in which the child is essentially without a country. Theorectically it would be possible that a child is yours, after protocolo is completed, and if for some reason the embassy denies visa the child and yourself are in limbo. They are yours but can't enter the US. With hacks like the banned attorneys and facilitators (2003/2004) it could happen. Doubtful, but possible.

Originally Posted by BrandyHagz

And then finally – I know there is someone on the forum who has had to do a lot of legwork for her own adoption (I think it is CSW, but I could be wrong) – can the parents step in and do some of the final steps? For example – pick up GCBC – take the file to the embassy for pink and complete the required appointments?

Technically the answer is yes. However, without knowledge of the processes, locations of legal offices etc. it would be best to either leave it to the attorney/facilitator if a good one or to hire someone to handle these final steps if you wanted to take charge.

Brandy, now you are an honorary Guat Mom!

[BrandyHagz]

Muchos Gracias Steph

*feverishly takes notes*

Ok, so the next question - I know there are "helpers" (who shall remain nameless to ahere to the AGD) that can assist in finding out what in the whahooey is going on with your case - these folks - do they help if mom/dad decides to go down and complete the final steps themselves?

I guess I'm just wondering - if someone didn't want to just sit back and wait and they had the resources to go down and facilitate some of these steps themselves (with the help of someone local of course) could that take place?

I remember a member a long time ago who had a horrid time with their agency and went down and worked the final steps of their case herself...in a case where the agency isn't doing their job, is this an acceptable solution?

I wonder - I mean if the protocolo is issued and all that is left is the birth certificate and embassy side - that means the child is legally yours - you should be able to do what you want, right? They can't keep you from your child - provided you've paid the fees and done everything else required...correct?

I know, I am getting way down deep in the hypotheticals here - but I'm just asking based on some of the things I've read in the past - maybe back when all that attorney stuff was going on that you were talking about Steph.

[ivysmom]

yes i agree wiht bassette. Youc na go down but you ahve to speak spanish or hire soe one that does and many times the attorney/agecny willnot realease the child to you all though the child is legally yours at that point not the attorneys. I relaly don't understand the logic for this all though i understand that they perhaps cannot promise that you will be out of bc by a certain date so you would have to be flexible about the amount of time you can spend there. They alwasy find somewhere int he process to slow it down most people get stuck somewhere it was passport bakc in my day then pgn wiht the hague now bc That is bureacracy for ya gotta love it

[Corolla]

Sometimes the problem is you can't get a copy of protocolo. I didn't get a copy until I said I was going to GC without the GCBC to see my daughter after waiting 8 weeks on the BC and a copy of the protocolo. (I got the protocolo faxed 3 days before I left) Once in GC, the pace picked up rapidly. Maybe it was just time for everything to happen or perhaps it was my being in Guatemala that helped moved the paperwork...either way, we pay A LOT of money for agency and guatemalan legal representatives. We should not have to take matters into our hands to finish the adoption off...but sometimes, you just gotta do it!

[Devora]

Because your question was raised in regard to the elusive GC Birth Certificates, I think it's important to add that for the most part there's not much anyone can do in terms of "legwork" to speed this up.

I am sure that there are some attorneys who are not as with it who are contributing to delays by not checking with the civil registry, etc. However, we waited for 7 weeks and we had an excellent attorney who went (or had her law student son go) to the civil registry everyday to check on it. The GC CR issue is beyond anyone's control at this point (probably someone has oversight, but I don't know who that is). So while there may be cases where an attorney isn't filing the request promptly or isn't checking on it, much of the delay has nothing to do with anyone other than the Civil Registry and there's nothing that a parent could do better than a good attorney is doing.

[BrandyHagz]

Thanks everyone.

I didn't mean could it speed it up, I just wanted to know if it was possible. *Could* adoptive parents do that portion of the process on their own provided they had some help from someone local?

I just wasn’t sure – and I thought I had seen someone say they had been forced to do that because of bad agency treatment – of course that was more than a year ago.

[sarareding89]

Steph summed everything up quite well. I would like to add though that yes, it can very well happen that the family may have the pink slip, and yet be denied the travel visa for the child. Whether or not the child is considered legally yours through the eyes of Guatemala has no baring on the receipt of a travel visa.

[JohnnaMJH]

In both of our adoptions, I finished them up. The last one, it was minor. The US Embassy claimed that they did and that they didn't have our updated fingerprints and refused to issue the pink. W/my agency's blessing and phone support, I went to the Embassy armed with all of my info, walked into Door #8 after it closed and showed the man all of my documentation. Thankfully he was nice, looked it over, said just a minute, and returned to tell me that pink would be ready the next day. Most everyone at my agency has an escort/translator for the Embassy appt, but I did do that on my own and it was fine.

In El Salvador, I did it all, obtained the new BC, passport, submitted my paperwork to the Embassy, etc. I had no support from my agency but I did have the priceless help of a local family. IF not for them, it would've been nearly impossible, at least the BC and passport stuff.

HTH,

[kelleymac]

Brandy:

Steph gave a great recap, I just want to add two things:

The birth certificates come from central registries (think reigistrar of vital records in the state of CA.) This is a government agency and this process cannot be speeded up no matter who is there (attorney, parent, facilitator, etc.)

As for other steps (passport, pink, etc.) yes, a parent from the US could speed these processes up, but learning where to go and do each one of them would be a challenge without some help from an agency or an attorney, or at minimum, a Guatemalan in the "know."

Finally, custody is an issue. Although the legal custody resides with the adoptive parent after the protocolo, in reality, if you don't know the hogar or foster home where your child is, how do you contact them and get the child? This is a reality, especially in the cases of bad agencies. They shelter their clients from knowing such details to maintain control.

Hope this has helped,
Kelley

[becky]

I think Kelley brings up some good points. Even though you are 'legally' the parent after signing the Protocolo...you don't have custody, and the unless the attorney allows you to take the baby you won't be able to get custody.

The other thing to remember is that the attorney has all of the adoption paperwork. If he/she isn't willing to 'hand over' the paperwork, no parent is going to be able to finish the adoption on his/her own.