[tricecm]

Are there babies that just don't get referred because there are not enough families in waiting pools? In other words, are there a lot of "waiting" children in GUatemala?

The older childen in hogars----where are they from? Are they children who have been in hogars all their lives, or have most of them arrived to the hogar fairly recently?

This has really been on my mind lately since my husband returned from Rosie's pick up trip.

And..... if those of you who read this thread know of someone who would know the answer, I would appreciate hearing that too!

Thanks!

[becky]

Trice,

I believe 'most' of the older children who are in Guatemala came as 'older' children. I am not aware of any children who are adoptable coming in as infants and never being referred and growing up in foster care or hogars.

If a child comes in older (and by that I mean 7 years or older) or as part of a sibling group that must be placed together, then they could be in for a long wait...and some may never be adopted at all. I do not believe that is the case at all for infants. Sometimes it takes a while to place baby boys, but they do get placed.

[Inanna]

I don't know the answer for sure, but I believe it is a little of both children who have been abandoned/orphaned and were not adopted as infants, and children who have been abandoned/orphaned in the recent past and are waiting for orphan status.

I know that most people adopting want babies, the younger the better, and I understand that for first-time parents, but that is a problem in domestic adoptions too. The older children waiting to be adopted are many, but there are thousands of people on waiting lists 5+ years long for infants.

[slaikta]

We preferred to find a child who was between two and four years old and our agency told us that the wait could/would be very long as there are not that many referrals in that age group. I took this to mean that there would not be many/any "waiting" babies. I wonder, though, if other agencies do have children in that age span who are in need of families?

Chris

[becky]

Chris,

It is very common to have to 'wait' for children in that age range. Most children are adopted as infants. It is rare for a mother to make an adoption plan for her toddler. The other large group is 'older' children and by older I am talking 9+ years of age.

[felmel]

Our daughter was 11 years old at adoption. She spent a total of 13 months in the hogar. Our process from referral to adoption took a total of seven months. She has now been home for 7 months and is starting to tell us a lot about her life in Guatemala and El Salvador.

[szumbiel]

Here's a thought process we used when thinking about this early in our decision making in Guatemala. Our agency shared this with us. (By the way, they are a very honest agency.)

In Guatemala, adoptions are private through an attorney. So, the atorney must take legal guardianship of babies relinquished to him/her (monetary responsibility). Therefore, they must know or at least be pretty sure they have families to place these children with to accept them as a relinquishment.

So, if Mother A wants to relinquish baby and goes to Attorney X who has families waiting or close on the horizon to waiting for a referral, Attorney X can take on the relinquishment. However, if that attorney does not know that the child can be placed, Mother A could be turned away. Now, she might find another attorney or might not. Who knows. But, those numbers are unavailable for obvious reasons.

We felt like by adopting from Guatemala, we knew that was one more Mother A that could go to our attorney and safely relinquish her child knowing he would be able to place that child. I do know that during our dossier prep time, my agency told me that our attorney had turned away birthmoms (with infant boys) because not enough families were available to adopt them (boys topic another discussion).

It was important to my husband that we adopt from a place where the child may not have gotten adopted otherwise. We came to understand that by the time our son was referred to us, he would probably get adopted by us or another family. He had made it into the "system". In reality, he had been the referral to another family who could not continue six weeks into the process, so we received him as a referral. However, by us adopting him, it opened up another space for another child to be accepted by our attorney.

One person's logic is hard to follow, so if this makes no sense to others, sorry! Just trying to share our thoughts along this journey...

Sonya, mom to Marty

[crathke]

Like Chris, we specifically sought out a 2-4 year old, and more specifically, a 2-4 year old *boy*. Our agency cautioned us that the wait for a referral could be "lengthy" because children of that age are not generally available unless a birthparent has reached the absolute end of their rope/resources and relinquishes or abandons them.

Our son was relinquished to our hogar in September of 2002; we accepted his referral two days later (which made it 10 days after finishing our home study)--and brought him home in January 2003.

Becky and Felicia are correct--there are not many (I would say "none" but that's an absolute that shouldn't be used, I suppose) children over the age of 12 months who have "grown up" in a hogar.

However, I do know of more than one instance where the director of our hogar agreed to take in an "older" child, knowing the chances of that child being adopted were slim, in order to keep them from a more bleak future.

Many attorneys work with more than one agency, so although there are fewer families seeking "older" (i.e., not infant) children, the range of visibility to families that an older child has may sometimes be more widespread. (which is a good thing!)

[ruthannbox]

As the mother of an adopted son from Guatemala, I would be very interested in hearing what your daughter is telling you of her life there. My son was 10 months when he came home, so can't learn anything from him, but would like to know what sort of life his older siblings there might be living. Of course, I'm not asking you to share anything you feel is too personal and private, just any general observations which might be of interest to us other parents of Guatemalan children.

[felmel]

My daughter was 10 years old when she was taken to the hogar. The following are snipets of some of the things that I have learned from her. Be aware that her own memories may be distorted. They are not necessarily in any order.

Apparently, her mother in Guatemala (MIG) did laundry, her 14 yo brother shined shoes and she was in charge of her younger brother (I think between 1 and 2 yo according to her). She talks of a younger sister that died at the age of 3 years. Her younger brother that she took care of was taken to a hogar and adopted to France, according to her. She has described her house (she says it wasn't a real home) as having no running water or electricity, but it did have a cement floor. Apparently she knew someone with a TV and she went to their house sometimes to watch it.

She talks of her MIG and how she made tortillas and frijolles. Her mother and brother couldn't read or write, my daughter couldn't tell time or count money so I wonder if her MIG could.

She did not ever brush her teeth until she went to the hogar. She is not used to taking showers in a regualr basis. Obviously without water in the house, these things would be difficult. She still forgets to flush the toilet occasionally and sometimes forgets to flush the toilet paper (they do not flush toilet paper in Guatemala she told me).

Clothing wise, she can't match anything and will wear clothes that are too tight. She is not aware that her clothes are too small for her, she often puts on my smaller daughters clothes and I have to tell her to change. I finally put her initials on all of her clothes. Problem I am having now is that after 7 months her clothes are getting too tight and she puts them on anyways, even though she has new clothes. Obviously she is not used to worrying about matching or fitting. She does not like to wear tennis shoes, she wants dress shoes.

In the grocery store she will point out foods that they had in Guatemala: fruits, ramen, wafer cookies and such. One day in the meat department she got excited when she saw chicken feet! She wanted me to buy it but I had no idea what to do with it! LOL She eats catsup with everything! She looked in the fridge for catsup when she first got here. She loves butter as well and says that to have butter with the tortilla is a treat.

The other day she said I would be mad at her. When I asked her why, she said because she played with a boy at recess time. She said her MIG would have been mad at her for playing with a boy.

She says that she will not marry because men hit women and drink the money away. When she first got here, she said she never wanted to have kids, now she says one or two will be OK. She had no concept of dreaming of a future or imagining what type of career she would like. I don't think she really thought about the future, just surviving the present.

I can tell that she is not used to being parented and can take care of herself pretty well. She gets into little fights at school when she thinks that someone is insulting her. The threat of losing TV for a day has really diminished the fights, LOL. She has very strong survival habits that work well for Guatemala, but don;t necessarily work in the US. She is very adaptable and has adjusted really well. Right now she is dealing with anger at her MIG for taking her to the hogar.

Well, this is getting long and I am rambling! If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me.

[kahart]

Felicia,

Wow, thanks so much for sharing Joseline's memories with us. I met you in Guatemala when you were bringing her home (at the Westin) and I could tell then how happy she was to be going home.

It is amazing all that she remembers and it helps me too to realize what life is really like for many of these woman who place their children for adoption.

We are just starting to talk about a "possible" #4, #2 adopted and we would want an older child, so it is really neat to see just how well Joseline has adapted and seems to be doing.

Thanks again for sharing her memories with us all.

[ruthannbox]

Those were very helpful insights for me.

[MomofCarlos]

I think you should check with Holt International (www.holtintl.org). They place mainly "older" children in their Guatemala program. This was perfect for us! We used them for the adoption of our son (5.5 years old) and we have been home with him for one month. They only place children that have Certificates of Abandonment. Nice bit of security! Anyway, if anyone has any specific questions for me, shoot.

Cheers,

Gabrielle

[ruthannbox]

I do have LOTS of questions for you since my 6-year-old son will be home in next 3-4 months from Guatemala. Was you son frightened to be leaving his foster or children's home? Did he sleep OK the first few nights? Did he seem bewildered at the language barrier? Did he seem distressed at the difference in the food? Does he seem happy now? Does he seem to accept you as his mother? Is he OK with being away from you for short periods of time, such as for pre-school? Anything else that you could tell me would be great!

Thanks!

[MomofCarlos]

Our son was actually upset that he couldn't go with us on the first day when we visited with him. When he did come to stay with us in Antigua, he was fine EXCEPT for the fact that he definately tests the boundaries.

He has never talked about his foster parents since we left the hogar. They were very lovely people and we were actually surprised that he has not longed for them.

He has slept fine since day one. The foster parents told us that our son has always been a picky eater and we have another picky eater at home so we were prepared for that.

I speak fluent Spanish and our 6 year old is semi-bilingual so the language barrier didn't exist for half of our family. Our son attends a bilingual school here and it is amazing how quickly he is learning English.

He called me mommy from the minute we met!

I would definately prepare yourself for the testing of boundaries and rules. We were not expecting him to push as hard as he does when there are two other kids in the house following the rules. He has been pushing and testing at school too. His teachers and my husband and I are being firm, but loving and he is responding to this combo.

Good luck,

Gabrielle