[KristieMaureen]

I've posted this as a new thread only because the thread entitled "Boston Globe" article has been closed.

To Clara (the original poster)

I recently shared information regarding reported less-than-legal, less-than-ethical procedures in Guatemala adoptions, similar to your post. My intent was not to discourage waiting adoptive parents, but to inform - same as yours. I assume that the majority of adoptive parents only want children who have absolutely been relinquished voluntarily, and through proper protectionary procedures - as I believe you do.

And, the same as you, I received numerous angry responses from adoptive parents. Most claimed some grand media conspiracy to defame and discourage Guatemala adoptions, some backdoor attempt by the anti-adoption community to deprive waiting children of homes... and some referred me to "reputable" reports. I'm sorry that both our efforts to share information in a non-confrontational, open forum are lost here.

To All Others

If you don't like the subject of a particular thread, don't read it.

If you don't like what someone else says in a post, make your opinion known WITHOUT childish antics. There is no reason to call names. Clara was called a "sad person" simply for trying to share information. She was accused of being anti-adoption. Is that really necessary? If you don't like the information she posted, simply post a response saying "Here are some alternative media view-points that you may want to check out".

If you are offering a different viewpoint and citing sources, be sure your sources aren't as biased as you claim the Boston Globe to be. Families Without Borders definitely has a bias... it's stated right on their homepage. They exist to defend Guatemalan adoptions from claims of impropriety. Are they really the best source for neutral, honest reporting?

And, as before, I urge all prospective adoptive parents of children born in Guatemala to be careful. Please, do adopt children from Guatemala... they deserve the loving homes you can provide. But take extra precautions to ensure for your child, your child's birthparents, and your own peace of mind that the child you adopted was relinquished willingly.

Kristie

[Sharon]

I agree with KristiMaureen;
The attacks on Clara's character and motives were overboard. It does not take a "sad" person to be concerned when articles like this are appearing in reputable papers. Like Kristi, I am sure everyone on this forum is conducting their adoptions in the most careful and ethical way possible; this being the case, I don't think the article reflects badly on anyone here, nor was it meant to.
However, even though these methods play no part in your own adoptions, can any of you honestly say that you know for a fact that these unethical and illegal practices are not occurring? I don't understand why people who express concern over this situation are attacked for their concern.
WHY would a reputable and established paper risk its reputation by fabricating such things?
I am not trying to insult or accuse anyone here. One of my all-time favorite people on this forum, someone I respect and look up to immensely, is adopting from Guatamala and will have her child home in less than a month. I am thrilled for her. If I could've made it happen any faster for her, I would've, because she is a good person and she waited a long time. I'm happy for each of you as I see your adoptions progressing, and I feel badly for you when your progress is delayed.
However, the things you read about in the media... (and again, I realize it isn't you guys doing these things, it's other people)... doesn't it concern you at all? Doesn't it worry you, not as potential aparents, but just as human beings hearing that the human rights of others are possibly being violated? Because it worries me.
It worries a lot of people, and I think concern is a reasonable reaction to it, and I don't believe that someone who expresses concern is simply out to cause trouble for you. You must realize that many people who aren't even INVOLVED in adoption, let alone IA, are growing increasingly concerned about these things... so it makes sense that many people on the forum, as people touched one way or another by adoption, are concerned as well.
I apologize if any of you felt accused or attacked by Clara's post; I do not believe it was her intention to target anyone on this forum.
Best of luck to all of you, ~ Sharon

[waiting4james]

I didn't read the post you mention... so I don't know what took place. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that we have gone through hell to adopt from Guatemala and after all the procedures we have gone through, it's hard to imagine that our babies are stolen since the birthmothers appear so many times stating otherwise and submitting to DNA testing.

We are tired of hearing the same stuff... to me it seems like going to a religious BB and referencing reasons why that religion might not be true. We're at a very emotional time in our lives and you can't expect people to act peachy when you tell them their children were gotten by illegitimate means.

Maybe we need to add "negative adoption lingo mentioned" to our posts or something... I don't know. Guess this post got me at a negative time because as impossible as our adoption is to complete it seems ludicrous that it would be sneaky and illegal.

Chelsea

[delaware1]

Just for the record, the article posted by Clara has been in syndication for a couple of months now, and has already been discussed on this forum. I believe it first showed up in the Chicago Tribune back in September.
There are several things in the article that do not ring true, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss it on this thread, since Clara and friends are convinced that the article in question is gospel, and are not willing to listen to any other point of view.
It is admirable that people are showing concern for the birthmothers, and that there is concern for the possibilty that birthmothers are being coerced, or forced to relinquish their children. There are several people who participate in this forum who have lost referrals when the birthmother has exercised her right to change her mind, so obviously those birthmothers were not threatened or coerced.
While we're talking about attacks on character, I personally feel that Clara and friends have come into this forum and basically said that the members here aren't intelligent enough to know the facts about Guatemala, and that we aren't concerned about illegal adoption. Please stop being so absurd. This forum is supposed to be for information and support. Your posts are not informative because they are rehashing material that we have already seen. It goes without saying that these posts are not supportive in any way.
-Kathleen

[becky]

Sharon and Kristie,

There is no one on this board who would ever want to even consider the possibility that our children were not 'voluntarily' relinquished.

I just question the motivitation of people such as yourselves and Clara who come onto this specific board and post about 'illegal' adoptions. You choose once again to believe a media that is certainly 'out to sell' papers...over those of us who have gone through months and months of anguish as we 'wait' to see whether these beautiful children will actually join our families.

Is it possible that someone is coerced into giving a child up for adoption...I would imagine it is. Much like it happens here in the US when a young woman is pregnant and neither her boyfriend nor parents want her to keep the baby. Is she forced to give the child up for adoption? Probably in some cases, yes. Does it happen this same way in Guatemala...yes, I'm sure it does. Do people hold birthmothers at gun point, forcing them to sign over their rights? NO WAY. I would love to see any credible person prove that that has ever happened (especially when it would have had to occur on 4 separate occasions...including when a DNA test is done at an independent US based testing facility). If you really think about it...it is so preposterous it's almost funny.

I do not dispute that there are 'rare' occasions of adoptions that are not done correctly...but that should in no way justify stopping a process that works in the vast majority of cases...and allows thousands of children to come to loving homes. No newspaper article in the world will ever convince me otherwise...

[BrandyHagz]

I wanted to post a more recent comment made by Guatemala's Attorney General for comment.

"On Monday, Guatemala Attorney General Carlos David De Leon said he would be glad to help the DCF or any U.S. agency in the investigation.

"In my opinion, it is a positive action that state officials look and see who is actually working to bring about legitimate adoptions, and perhaps this will also help uncover those who are illegal groups or agencies that are taking advantage and trafficking in minors," he said.

De Leon estimated that about 2,000 children are taken from Guatemala each year for illegal adoptions, prostitution and other illicit acts.

Discussion?

You can view the story here

[becky]

If 2000 children are 'taken' from Guatemala they certainly aren't 'taken' to the US. I don't know of anyone who would spend $25,000 to bring a child to the US for any purpose other than adding a child to their family.

Have any of you read the information we have provided repeatedly about the HUGE influence of UNICEF in Guatemala and their attempts to bring 'legal' adoption to an end in this country? That '2000' child figure sounds just like something UNICEF would say. Where would someone come up with a figure like that anyway???

[waiting4james]

I don't think people can estimate illegal adoptions for one thing. I also really like how they throw in prostitution and such... what do they have to do with each other. Child prostitutes within Guatemala shouldn't be lumped together with "illegal" adoptions. That's a way of making adoption sound worse than it is. That's like me saying over 1 million children were named either Flinkindinger or Bob last year... maybe there were 999,999 kids names Bob and 1 Flinkindinger... but without saying that, people think a lot of Flinkindingers were born.
What are the estimates based on anyway? I hate that kind of stuff... Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

Chelsea

[KevinK]

Don't pay any attention to figures they spew out. These are the same folks who claimed that PGN approved 1500 cases in ten days. The fact is that 85-90% if all Guatemalan adoptions come to the U.S. (probably higher now that pther countries have closed to Guat). These adoptions require a DNA test taken in a very controlled environment. If teh birthmom has a history of many adoptions, te embassy investigates it to make sure she's on the up and up. Terms like legal and illegal leave much to the imagination. An illegal adoption by their terms could be one where maybe the birthmom received a few dollars for a doctor's visit. "Illegal" does not mean that the child was anything other than voluntarily relinquished. And notice they said 2,000 including adoption, prostitution, etc. It is possible that 2,000 legal minors leave the country illegally each year. Some could be coming to the U.S. as agricultural workers, clothig plant workers, etc. Folks, we just need to take a deep breath, not let the media get to us, and make sure that we inform as many people as we possibly can of the realities.

Also, I have to chime in that if someone posts concerns after reading some of this stuff, we should embrace them rather than scold them. I'm lucky that I have never trusted the U.S. media so it's easy for me to tune them out. But most people are led to believe we have a free, open, and honest media. And we should all be concerned about any unethical activities going on in adoption because it threatens the very existence of this wonderful institution. There are bad seeds and we should not blind to those that are out there. I just think the seeds are rotten and dishonest, but they're not killers and kidnappers.

[Bitsy]

VERY well said Becky, Kevin, Chelsea and Kathleen. I am so thankful that there are people who are willing to stand up for what they believe in. Guatemalan adoptions are something I also believe in and feel very passionate about.

To those who have these questions: Have you heard of a man named Gregory at hands of hope? Maybe you can check out his website and read some of the stories of how impoverished the country is. I have read many posts from him on the big list as well as communicated with him directly enough that I would even refer to him as a friend. Take a look at his web site.....send him an e-mail requesting information about what you are concerned about. He lives in Guatemala and sees first hand birth mothers asking him to help find a home for their child that they love very much but are unable to care for. (For the record, Gregory does not facilitate adoptions. His web site is: www.hands-of-hope.com ) There are orphanges overflowing with children that will never ever be able to know a forever family because there simply aren't enough people willing or able to adopt them.

Have you been to Guatemala? Have you ever talked to a Guatemalan birth mother? Have you ever been to one of the overflowing orphanages. Have you walked down the street and seen the "street boys" left to care for themselves??? I have and it is something that will forever weigh on my heart. On my last visit I saw a small little girl, maybe 3-4, sitting on the curb begging. The traffic was busy and fast and it was 10:00 at night. There are no bed time stories for these children. No one is going to be there for them when they are scared in the middle of the night. I THANK GOD that there are so many wonderful people in a position and have enough love in thier hearts to be a mom or dad to these precious children.

I think it is so very sad that there are so many people who are misled as to the true situation. International Adoption is a wonderful thing. Yes, it is true.....there are MANY forces that don't think so. They want an end to all international adoption. I pray to God that they are NEVER successful.

Please no flames. I am truly not trying to belittle anyone at all. These are the feelings of my heart. I didn't have to share them, but I really hope they help you to think a little more about adoptions from Guatemala.

[KristieMaureen]

I clearly stated my personal motivation for posting on this forum, and that is to share information and urge caution. Simple as that. Should any individual choose to read more into it, or infer something else... well, I have no control over that.

Media

Brandy cited an article in which a Guatemalan Government Official estimated 2,000 illegal adoptions/removal of children for labor and prostitution. A poster here questioned how anyone can connect the issues, as they are so obviously different. It's called Illegal Trafficking in Children. The purpose is almost irrelevant, as it's the removal of children, through less-than-legal and ethically questionable means, from their country of origin that's at issue. Whether those children are removed and put in good situations, or bad ones... does it really matter if the removal wasn't legal and a family has lost its child?

Another post linked the Guatemalan Official's statement to a "UNICEF" led conspiracy to end adoptions. UNICEF's goal is not to end adoptions - it is to ensure that practices and procedures protect the universal rights of children. If a country is not protecting the rights of its own children, UNICEF will urge that adoptions and other transfers of children be stopped until practices and procedures are improved. Does that cause pain to law-abiding families who have been patiently waiting for their adoptions to be finalized? Most definitely! Nobody is arguing that the emotional and financial pain of adoptive families isn't tremendous.

In the article that Brandy cited, there is also a statement made from a United States INS official... who also states that Guatemalan adoptions have been particularly troublesome. Is he also part of a UNICEF effort? Judging from the current administration's relationship with the UN, that's highly unlikely.

The article, for those interested, was published today and I've provided the URL below.

Accusations of Questionable Adoptions

I personally have never accused any poster on this forum of participating in an illegal adoption. In fact, I believe that the people motivated enough to become active forum members are those least likely to be sucked in by an illegal adoption agency or attorney. Be proud of your families... but just be willing to accept that there are people out there who will be sucked in. That's what we'd like to prevent.


Moving Forward

What I'd like to urge is that
1) even if we all don't believe that illegal practices are as rampant as reported in some media, that we can agree that even a small number of illegal practices in adoption tarnishes the whole industry - and tarnishes our families as well. As someone who is looking to adopt internationally, the last thing I want is my adoption being questioned by association.

2) that those of you that have already adopted from Guatemala, or are in the process, or even just considering it... that YOU be the loudest voices urging change! You're closest to the situation. Should a concerted group of Guatemala adoptive families say "Even One Illegal Adoption is NOT Acceptable", people will listen. Only when the adoption community in the US, and particularly adoptive parents, demand change will Guatemala work to ensure that NO child becomes the victim of child trafficking.

Can you imagine how proud your adopted child will feel of you if he/she knows that you're trying to make things better for other people in the country of their birth?

Can you imagine how responsive the media would be if you, as an adoptive parent, were to come forward and say "I adopted from Guatemala, and I'd like to ensure that all future adoptions are as legal and binding as the one in which I participated?"

[hockeyMom]

Just to get it out in the open... I know that on 2-3 other sites certain people will post anything negative from the press on that country's adoption. I won't say that it is a certain person/s but I have children from multiple country's and see the similar information on other forums as well. As it was probably intended to do, it sets off panic and insights alot of negative discussion about agencies, countries and adoptions in general.

I am a social worker for an agency and am more inclined to pass it off. However, a few years ago these articles would have sent me into a panic. I read them for the info and leave it at that. I try not to get too upset by these posters as this negative info can be found in any circumstance, not just adoptions.

While we are currently in process now we are getting tons of stuff emailed to me. I find articles of equal POSITIVE info and send it back. What goes around can really come around...

I am thinking of all of you waiting for your precious babies and will keep all of you in my prayers as we all wait the days when they are in our arms.

[Sharon]

These articles are not "outdated".


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,3672595.story

Man from Springs adoption agency wanted in Costa Rica for 'trafficking in minors'

I just don't see how some of you can accuse people of being uninformed hate-mongers because this sort of thing concerns them. It's all right there, the sources are easily verifiable, and it would concern anyone with a heart, IMO.
~ Sharon

[JaelynElise]

I don't know anything about any of this to be honest. However, this statement just struck me...

There are orphanges overflowing with children that will never ever be able to know a forever family because there simply aren't enough people willing or able to adopt them

My hubby and I desperately want to adopt from Guatemala, yet we are feeling like our chances are slim to none due to:

1) COST
2) Hague mess
3) local homestudy agency issues (not related to Guatemala but still a frustration)

If so many children are in need of homes and may never get a "forever family", why is it so hard for a family like ours, whose home and hearts are filled with love and want for a Guatemalan baby?

[KristieMaureen]

I neglected to include this in my last post. I've typed it in here, so for those interested I believe you'll have to copy and paste.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/yah...saol-headlines