[angel_island1622]

Dear Kim,
I am so sorry for your loss, and truly at a loss of words to say. You and your son are in my prayers.

[amyfk]

Kim,

My thought are with you and your family at this very difficult time.

Amy K, NJ

[Sleepydream]

Hi,

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. When I was young I had a friend who was adopted who died at a young age. He and I had shared many conversations about adoption, religion, life. Now an adult, I find myself an adoptive parent. I so wish he could see how our talks have influenced my life, even after he was gone. He was a great source of comfort to me when I learned of my infertility. He was his aparent's only child, they have never recovered from that loss. I know that I can not speak for your son, but my friend's adoption was closed. He told me that he saw his own adoption as part of "God's perfect plan" and though he was curious about his beginnings he could not possibly bring himself to question the first chapter of a story that did not yet have an end. He had great admiration for the woman who picked the parents "he would have chosen himself if he could". His life was very short, but it was very full. Full of love, full of hope, full of faith, happiness, family and friends. I know it is not the same as personal information about your own dear boy, but I hope his story lays sweetly on your heart and in some small way help you during this difficult time.

[lavett96]

I can't even begin to tell you have sorry I am. The loss that you have endured has to be tragic. I will keep you in my prayers and hopefully you find peace.

[Denise Michaels Mom]

Your friends name wasn't Michael Woll by any chance? My son's adoption was closed and he was the only child of his a-parents too.

I went to classmates.com to try and locate some of my son's friends, to find out if he ever spoke about his adoption but all the friends I found said he didn't talk about it.

I'm glad your friend had a good family, that his a-parents loved him and he had a happy life; my son's a-parents loved him very much too, still, it's a little like fingernails on a blackboard when I hear adoptee's say things like it was 'God's perfect plan.' It makes me feel like they're saying something would have been wrong with their life if they were raised by their moms.

I would have made a great mom and I know my son would have had a great life with me. My love would have been just as good, no...it would have been better because I was his mother and the love between a mother and child is like no other. An a-mom can love her adopted child but it's not the same. There is a bond between mother and child that begins in the womb and it's so strong that nothing can break it, nothing, not distance, time, not even death. The bond between a mother and child is a physiological and biological process that starts at conception and is fully formed by the time the child is born. The bond a child makes with an a-mom is different, it happens outside the womb, it isn't guttural or instinctive, the child isn't part of the a-moms flesh....it's just not the same.

I understand what you were trying to say, I really do, I realize that you were trying to offer me comfort. I know you were trying to say your friend was happy and loved and he couldn't have picked a better set of parents but from my perspective...the perspective of a woman who was told I couldn't mother my baby because I was young and unmarried, the perspective of a woman who heard over and over that I wouldn't have been a good parent...well, it feel like those dispersions are being reinforced. I've had adoptee's tell me they would hate not knowing their adoptive family, that they would miss them if they weren't raised by them, that they wouldn't have had such a good life if they were raised by their mothers but that's just not so. First of all they wouldn't even know that their a-parents existed, they wouldn't have had anything to compare their life to and if you ask any child who is being raised by a single parent..."hey, look at that family over there, they have a mother and father, they live in that nice house, they have more "things", don't you want to go live with them?" The child would say no, they wouldn't want to leave their mothers. Adoptee's are saying that their adoptions are "Gods Perfect Plan" because they were raised by their a-parents, they wound't know the difference if they weren't.

Believe me, I wanted my son to be happy and loved, I truly did but he would have had a great life with me too and to hear an adoptive child say they rather not have been raised by their mother is saying they didn't think their mothers would have made them happy. But I don't believe it, I think a child is always happier when they are surrounded by their biological family...blood is really thicker than water. I'm not saying a-parents don't love their adopted children but be truthful...wouldn't you have rather raised your own child then someone else? Wasn't adoption your second choice?

Again, I thank you for trying to offer me comfort, I can see what was in your heart and I thank you for that, I really do...I could have lied to you and said, thank you and left it at that but there's too much deception in adoption, starting with issuing false birth certificates. I promised myself never to be silenced again and that includes telling it like it is. Please don't misunderstand, I really do thank you for reaching out...we are just coming from different perspectives (meaning your adopted friend and I). Also, as an a-mom I'm sure it's easier for you to think about it from this perspective; I don't think too many adoptive parents like looking at adoption from the perspective of the mother, it makes many to them uncomfortable when they are shown that their happieness is the direct result of someones loss and pain (that being the mothers loss of her child and the childs loss of it's biological family).

I wish you the best and again thank you.

Denise

[crick]

Denise...

This is the 2nd post now where you have made some pretty serious generalizations and speaking on everyone's behalf.

You are entitled to your personal beliefs about adoption and your theories. HOWEVER, you are NOT entitled to speak for everyone. You tell me how you are in everyone's mind knowing exactly what they think and feel and I'll tell you how a pig can fly.

You really need to remember where you are posting...which is a pro adoption site. We do want to hear from members who don't have the same feelings or have been hurt by adoption. What we do NOT want however, is someone telling us how wrong or invalid we all are because we happen to support adoption. You don't want us telling you how to feel or tell you "get over it", so why would you tell anyone else that?

You have no way of knowing if a child would be happier with their bio parents or aparents. You may know of some people who fit your theory, but you do NOT know that as a fact for ALL adoptees.

Just as you don't know that the bond between a bio mom is stronger than the one between an amom and child. It's not fact...it's your belief. And every belief has a study to show anything supporting it, and yet..it's still your personal belief.

So as the admin of this site, I do need to let you know that while you are certainly able to share your story and your pain, you are NOT allowed to post your beliefs and experience as fact for ALL members or as fact about adoption in general. Please remember to post based on YOUR experiences, not as the voice of all.

[Sniffles]

Originally Posted by Denise Michaels Mom

I've had adoptee's tell me they would hate not knowing their adoptive family, that they would miss them if they weren't raised by them, that they wouldn't have had such a good life if they were raised by their mothers but that's just not so. First of all they wouldn't even know that their a-parents existed, they wouldn't have had anything to compare their life to and if you ask any child who is being raised by a single parent..."hey, look at that family over there, they have a mother and father, they live in that nice house, they have more "things", don't you want to go live with them?" The child would say no, they wouldn't want to leave their mothers. Adoptee's are saying that their adoptions are "Gods Perfect Plan" because they were raised by their a-parents, they wound't know the difference if they weren't.

Denise,
I am an adoptee and I was raised by two of the most wonderful parents. If I had the chance to change things, I wouldn't. I have searched and found my birth mother and my birth grandparents. Unfortunately she doesn't want contact with me right now and thats OK. However my grandparents do and I am very grateful for that.

When we first spoke, they told me the story of my adoption. It was my birth mother's choice to place me and she knew that she did not have the resources to take care of me. My grandparents told me that they could not do it either at that time and my birth mothers decision to place me for adoption was in my best interest. I am grateful to her everyday of my life because she gave me a chance at life.

I really do not appreciate some of the things that you said in your post, because you can not speak for all adoptees. I highly suggest that you read the following thread. I hope that you will be able to understand that all adoptees do not feel the way you say they do. I am tired of being the "angry adoptee"

[Denise Michaels Mom]

Woe....I am really sorry, I thought I was talking about my experiences and how I feel. I read my post again and I don't understand what upset you so much...is it required that I start EVERY sentence with "my experience is" or "I feel" for that to be understood? I also didn't realize that this is a PRO-adoption site, I thought it was a forum were all members of the triad come to learn and grow from the experiences of others. If all you want is for people to agree with you, to reinforce how you think, then why post at all? I have learned much in life from hearing views different than my own...for how can we grow and learn unless our views are challenged? We may as well be talking to ourselves if all we are looking for is someone to agree with us.

Before I go I have to say one more thing...I never said the bond between a mother and child is stronger than the bond between an adoptive mom and a child...if you go back and look I said it was DIFFERENT. And the FACT is, that it is different. The FACT is that boding is a process that starts in the womb and if the adoptive mom didn't have the child in her womb then the bond between an adoptive mom and child is different than the bond between a child and its mother. It's a biological bond and it is different. I said it was so strong that nothing can break it but I never said it was stronger. You are the one who said it's stronger not me.

And I will agree - there's no way to prove that a child would be happier with it's mom unless you can make a child experience it's childhood with one and then the other, which is impossible but to my way of thinking it's illogical to think a child wouldn't be happier with it's mom...material things matter more to adults than to a child (opps, I mean, I think material things matter more to an adult than to a child, whew...I almost forgot to say these are my thoughts...dah) I have a nephew that would rather play with the plastic bag that I carried his new toy with than the toy...go figure! My sister said I should stop buying him toys and let him play with the bags. (but she was kidding because we know the bags are unsafe, so please don't get on my case about that), my point being most kids don't care, they just want the familiar sounds and smells of their mommy. Oh, and this isn't my theory, they have done studies, one of which I saw in person, that when an infant cries and someone other than it's mom comes it becomes very agitated, as soon as the mom comes in the room the baby's heart rate begins to go back to normal. It is a fact that babies know their mom from the second they are born. I'm not saying that they can't adjust to having a stranger attend to them but the fact is that an adoptive mom is a stranger to a new born, that it until the new born gets to know the new mom, but that doesn't happen over night. I know this will upset you because you don't want to hear this kind of information but look it up...I didn't make it up.

As I sit here trying to figure out why my views upset you so I am being to think maybe it's because my child was taken from me. I never gave consent to putting my child up for adoption. NEVER. I was given gas in the last minutes of my labor so when my son was born I wouldn't see him or hear him cry. When I woke up I was in the delivery room, my feet still in the stirrup, alone. No doctor, no nurses and no baby. I was taken to a room and my baby was never brought to me, I never held him or felt the warmth of his skin. I had to fight for permission to see my own child. After days of insisting I was finally given permission to see him through a piece of glass and a locked door and even then I was limited to less than 5 minutes. I begged my mother to let us both come home to no avail. So I guess maybe the difference is that some moms choose to give their babies away (yes, a concept I can not understand, not even a little bit, I admit to that) however, I will never learn to understand how some moms could be happy with such a choice because I am not welcome here if I don't agree...and that's fine, really. I am not upset by this discussion but you are so....you don't want to hear about my feelings and experiences, they are not wanted here, again, misunderstood, I thought this was a place to grow and learn. I do not desire to put myself on a pro-adoption site, I was looking for a site that wanted all views, so I will leave......
I'm sorry I upset you, have a good day.
Denise

[snaps]

I am so sorry. I hope you can find peace and the answers that you are looking for. ((((hugs))))

[crick]

It is a place to grow and learn...and it's also a place to respect all members of the triad.

Yes, you have factual findings. That's great. Do those findings apply to each and every person? No. Do you have the right to imply that they do? No. Do you have the right to speak for adoption and all involved in adoption? No.

I think if you'll go back over your recent posts, you'll see what I'm referring to in the way of generalizations. Not everyone fits into your set of beliefs. Just as you don't fit into others. The difference is we need to respect that of everyone.

I'm sorry for your personal pain, and we absolutely do want to offer support. However, we do not support one voice speaking for all.

[Scarlet Moon 13]

Originally Posted by Denise Michaels Mom

Your friends name wasn't

I'm glad your friend had a good family, that his a-parents loved him and he had a happy life; my son's a-parents loved him very much too, still, it's a little like fingernails on a blackboard when I hear adoptee's say things like it was 'God's perfect plan.' It makes me feel like they're saying something would have been wrong with their life if they were raised by their moms.

I wish you the best and again thank you.

Denise

I will agree with you that, if there had been no adoption, the adoptee wouldn't know, nor miss people they had never met. I also don't beleive that a loving god would give you a child then take it away. Leaving many bmoms in great pain and loss.

But, that said, not every adoptee will want a reunion, nor need a reunion. Though I have met a good number who felt that way then went on to have great reunions. Saying they didn't know they missed anything until they were reunited.

But we can't speak for all bmoms, or all adoptees. I can speak of personally about 100 bmoms I know, have met, and talked to about search and reunion. Maybe more.
But not even all them wanted a reunion, though most of that number did.

So in the vein of speaking, it may be, some, a few, many, most, but never all.

Some are angry, some are not, some are happy, some are not..

A few wish they were never adopted, many are happy or because they know no different, don't care how they came to their family. It is not an issue. Some feel fiercely loyal, some worry about parents feelings, some never think about it..

The same goes for the other side.

My bson has told me he wished I had kept him, but then, that is what I wanted, my wishes didn't matter. I was too young. I also know his life wouldn't have been all that much different. I married at 17 so I know I was always "able" to take care of him, so long as I was either married or had perental help. Mom wouldn't even consider my keeping my baby.

I am stopping, I have gotten lost in my direction in this topic.. so I am closing

Teri

[Denise Michaels Mom]

Dear Terri,

I had to thank you for agreeing with me, you understood what I was saying. Yes, it's just logical, if there had been no adoption, the adoptee wouldn't know, nor miss people they had never met, you said it so well, so succinctly. I sometimes can't find the right words, especially when something is so simple and obvious. You are one of the few or maybe the only one so far that has understood what I was trying to say....but I've been berated for it, I've been told I'm being disrespectful, which I truly didn't intend, I was just trying to point these things out. And I've tried to apologize, especially for speaking about how adoptee's feel...I have a cousin who's adopted and she has no desire to find her mother. I personally think she's in denial for I know her a-mom very well and this woman would not stand for it, she is too insecure in her motherhood to accept it but I respect her wishes and don't bring it up to her.

However, I am a mother who lost a child to adoption and for 33 years I said the same things some of these mothers are saying. I use to say things like...I could never have given my son the life he had with his adoptive parents and I use to say I wouldn't have had the life I had if I kept him...which, by the way is all true, but that doesn't mean my life or his life wouldn't have been great and it wouldn't have matter because we wouldn't have had these lives to compare it to. I just think the bond, the relationship between mother and child is unique, I don't think it can't be duplicated or replaced, so I believe it should be perserved at all costs (unless the mother is truly unfit, for example, drugs, etc). I believe adoption should be the last resort. I believe my post upset people because I'm talking from my experiences and my experiences are from a womans who's been there, I am looking back, I can see the picture in retrospect and I know what it's like to be in denial but to bring up the possibility that they maybe in denial is taboo, so....I was just trying to give others food for thought, show them the otherside, other possibilities but I guess no one's hungry.
Again, thank you for being able to see what I was trying to say...

[mom2GRLC]

Originally Posted by Denise Michaels Mom

My heart is breaking for you...I also found my only child, a boy, that I lost to adoption, deceased. I found out in 2003 so I have an idea what you are going through. I would like to communicate with you, to help support you through this devastating loss. When I found my son gone I wanted to desperately to find others who had experienced what I was going through, I knew I couldn't be the only one and it took me awhile to locate others like myself but I did. I started an on-line support group for those who have been separated from a biological family member by adoption, searched and found a grave. I call the group Found and Lost Support but I'm not contacting you just to recruit a new member; I truly believe that no one should go through this type of loss alone. I want you to know that I am here for you. Like I said, it's been almost 4 years since I learned my son was gone and I still have a difficult time. Even the most supportive, loving family and friends don't understand how we can be grieving over someone we never really knew...but I understand. I hope you will contact me, like I said, I understand and although I don't know you I am shedding tears along with you. Your pain is my pain; when I read your post I flashed back to that day I learned about my son. Yes, I also had so many hopes and dreams and finding a grave shatters them in a million pieces. You feel hopeless and I don't blame you for there's no hope in death, it's the ultimate unchangeable reality. Please write, we can help each other. I can't tell you how sorry I am for your loss.
My thoughts are with you.
Sincerely,
Denise

I dissagree there is hope even in death. If you believe in a God and in a place called heaven. Someday I believe you WILL meet your son, form a relationship with him and share with him all the love you have in your heart for him.

[Scarlet Moon 13]

Originally Posted by Denise Michaels Mom

Dear Terri,

I had to thank you before leaving, not just for agreeing with me, you understood what I was saying. Yes, it's just logical, if there had been no adoption, the adoptee wouldn't know, nor miss people they had never met, you said it so well, so succinctly. I sometimes can't find the right words, especially when something is so simple and obvious. You are one of the few or maybe the only one so far that has understood what I was trying to say....but I've been berated for it, I've been told I'm being disrespectful, which I truly didn't intend, I was just trying to point these things out. And I've tried to apologize, especially for speaking about how adoptee's feel...I have a cousin who's adopted and she has no desire to find her mother. I personally think she's in denial for I know her a-mom very well and this woman would not stand for it, she is too insecure in her motherhood to accept it but I respect her wishes and don't bring it up to her.

However, I am a mother who lost a child to adoption and for 33 years I said the same things some of these mothers are saying. I use to say things like...I could never have given my son the life he had with his adoptive parents and I use to say I wouldn't have had the life I had if I kept him...which, by the way is all true, but that doesn't mean my life or his life wouldn't have been great and it wouldn't have matter because we wouldn't have had these lives to compare it to. I just think the bond, the relationship between mother and child is unique, I don't think it can't be duplicated or replaced, so I believe it should be perserved at all costs (unless the mother is truly unfit, for example, drugs, etc). I believe adoption should be the last resort. I believe my post upset people because I'm talking from my experiences and my experiences are from a womans who's been there, I am looking back, I can see the picture in retrospect and I know what it's like to be in denial but to bring up the possibility that they maybe in denial is taboo, so....I was just trying to give others food for thought, show them the otherside, other possibilities but I guess no one's hungry.
Again, thank you for being able to see what I was trying to say...and with that.......I'm outta here!!!!!!

I have gotten to know a great number of amoms on AOL message boards. I used to beleive that I couldn't be 100% replaced.. but it does happen... Though there are many, some, adoptees who always hold a place for the bmom should she ever come around.. or not.

When I found my son, it felt for both of us, that the bond formered in utero was still there. We were still bonded..

Yet I do know at least 4 bmoms, who thought they would feel something like that when they reunited, but didn't.
Where I felt I "knew" actually physically felt that I "knew" my bson, he is so much like me it ain't funny. But these other women did not feel it. They could not find it in themselves no matter how much they wished it. So they had to learn to love their birth child. For them the birthchild was a complete stranger. Yet for me and my son, that was not true, we knew each on a very deep core level.

I am raising my bio granddau, she is now 17 and great. For 4 years I also had stepgranddau living with us. She and I are connected, I was there for delivery, I held her frist, so when her mommy had trouble with drugs, I was the one this child wanted. She loved me the same as if she were my bio grand. She still does, and I love her the same way. She was 3 when she came to us, and after 4 years her mommy got her back.. mommy is now a junior in Wazzu at Pullman.


I have to go... my son is taking me out to buy me a gift, my youngest raised son, age 39......I am 59...


Teri

[JPDakota]

You know, Crick doesn't need my support, but she gets it anyway. How can you possibly read what you wrote and fail to see how generalistic and disrespectful it is? May I suggest that, in order to avoid this sort of thing, you quote studies appropriately so others can reference them, avoid "yelling" in print, and accept other people's views as their own. You don't have to agree, certainly, but your point has long since been obfuscated by your tone and presentation.