[oceanica]

It seems like it's the thing to help people "find peace". If someone did something to you and it was an egregious thing, and they weren't sorry, and no one around you acknowleged that what was done was wrong, why is it "good" for you to forgive? The person didn't ask for it. I guess harboring ill will towards someone could be harmful if it eats away at you over time. But it seems that forgiving at least in your own mind could also minimizes the harmful thing that was done. Sometimes the righteous anger you may feel or are supposed to feel could be validating to you to show yourself that you are important and don't deserve mistreatment. I am just asking this as a general question. I think there are many different possible situations where it could apply.

[lovemy2boys]

I think it's not so much for the person who committed the behavior, but for the one that it was committed against...

Alot of times, we hold onto our anger and the sense of "unfairness" for so long that the overwhelming bitterness tends to harm us as much as the original offense.

I remember watching someone on tv talk about how they were consumed with this type of rage and anger years...she said that as a victim, the anger that she held onto was like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

That hit me like a truck. I have an aunt who is horrible to me. She never misses an opportunity to try to knock me down or find fault in everything/anything I do. It used to eat away at me...I was so bitter and resentful and I actually hated her for a very long time. Then when I heard the "poison" comparison, I realized that this was EXACTLY what I was doing to myself.

Once I let go of that anger (which, of course, is not that simple, and takes alot of work and patience) I felt better...The thing to remember is that forgiving someone is not justifying what they did...

For me, it was coming to the realization that SHE was the one with the issues, and I could either allow her to have power over me by remaining bitter and angry, or I could release the hatred from my heart and live peacefully.

[greenrobin]

one can forgive without forgetting. It's like having a firecracker without a fuse. You know it's there, but you've removed the potential for damage.

lovemy2boys has it right, I think. I never heard the analogy about drinking poison and expecting the other person to die before. And really, harboring anger and other poisonous emotions make just about as much sense.

Unasked for forgiveness isn't for the person who did the egregious thing. It's for the person who was wronged. It frees them. What I fear and hate controls me, so I let it go. I return to what is best for my health. Albeit not without a mighty struggle sometimes, but still!

[Cjmeck]

Forgiving doesn't mean "accepting" what has happened. To me, it just means "you've pissed me off long enough. I will no longer allow you to have any power or control over my emotions. I'm taking back control, letting it go b/c that's what I CHOOSE to do. I choose to not let you have another moment of my energy."
That is how I would forgive in that situation. No, I don't accept what was done. It is not okay. I will never forget. And part of me will always feel hurt by you. But I'm stronger than that, I'm better than that. I chose to move on.
Yeah, I'm not real good at forgiving, lol.

[tinktink]

I have held a 30 - some odd year grudge, and when I let it go, it felt great. I know I was wronged in the past, but it doesn't fuel me like it did. I have just decided to move on from it, and it was so freeing!! It was on of the few New Year's resolutions I made this ast year that stuck.

[EZ2Luv]

When I chose to forgive someone it is not because they deserve forgiveness or they even asked for it, but I chose to forgive for "me". Many times the person who has done the injustice is going along living their life without any bothersome thoughts of their actions. I am the one who is allowing them to live "rent free" in my head. I forgive to let go for my own peace of mind.
Maybe I am too selfish to hold grudge lol. I do know as a Christain, God has forgiven me so how can I expect forgiveness and not forgive others?
EZ

[RavenSong]

Oceanica,

This is such a great topic; I'm really glad you created this thread. I've been wondering lately about the same thing you have in regards to forgiving someone who hasn't "repented" or even acknowledged the harm he's done.

I've always seemed to have a fairly easy time forgiving people who ask for forgiveness. It's the one's who don't see anything wrong with what they've done (or they just don't care) that throw me for a loop. For example, how do you forgive a sociopath who gets off on causing other people deep pain or harm?

To me, forgiveness doesn't mean we just forget what happened to us. I think for myself, at least, it means letting go of the resentment and anger.

When I was young, I was brutally attacked my three men and left for dead. None of these men ever expressed any remorse for what they had done, even when they were sitting in prison and coming up for parole hearings. I'm pretty sure they were all sociopaths, or as they were called back then, psychopaths. I'm not sure that I ever formally forgave them in the strict definition of the term. But I did let go of the tremendous anger and resentment that I felt towards them. I had to...it was eating me alive. As long as I let their evilness eat away at me, I was letting them live rent-free in my brain, kwim? I did eventually let go of what had happened to me...I let go of the resentment and anger, at least.

The part of forgiveness that I have trouble with is when it involves loved ones who continue with the same injurious, bad behavior. Am I being a doormat when I continually forgive my brother for intentionally hurting me? He does it again and again and again...and every single time he does or says something outrageous, I'm reminded by my mother that I should forgive him...once again. Where does it stop?? That's my dilemma right now. So I'm really interested in seeing other people's feelings on this issue. Thanks for bringing up this subject!

[lovemy2boys]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Oceanica,

The part of forgiveness that I have trouble with is when it involves loved ones who continue with the same injurious, bad behavior. Am I being a doormat when I continually forgive my brother for intentionally hurting me? He does it again and again and again...and every single time he does or says something outrageous, I'm reminded by my mother that I should forgive him...once again. Where does it stop?? That's my dilemma right now. So I'm really interested in seeing other people's feelings on this issue. Thanks for bringing up this subject!

This is kind of what I deal with in relation to my Aunt. The things she's said to me have been so vicious and cruel...and the most hurtful and damaging things she say tend to allude to the idea that I'm not "worthy" of someone's love...such as my beloved grandmother, my kids, my DH, etc...

And I don't come out and say "I forgive you" to her because 1) she continues to do this stuff on a regular basis and 2) she wouldn't admit she's doing anything wrong anyway...

But what I actually do is forgive myself...I forgive myself for letting her words chip away at pieces of myself...I forgive myself for wondering deep down if what she's saying is true...and I forgive myself for holding onto the anger for 20 years.

Now, when she says something or alludes to something it just doesn't have that same impact that it did. First off, I don't believe at ALL that I'm not worthy. I just won't buy into that anymore...Second, I can see now that she is the one who is really damaged, and at the end of the day, she's the one who's living with the hatred that poisons her heart.

Having said that, it's not easy. There have been 2 or three things that she's said that I still struggle to get over...One in particular. But you know, it's not her words that hurt so much, it's that I actually believed it.

Eh. We're all a work in progress I suppose...

[aclee]

Some lady was just on Oprah the other day...Makensie someone or other? Some child star. She had rough childhood...Her father raped her and she later ended up in what she describes as a consensual "relationship" with him. Drugs, etc etc...anyway, she said something that really struck a cord with me. Forgiveness is not for the other person, it's for you. You forgive, so YOU can move on. She forgave her father, even though he never acknowledged he did anything wrong, so she could move on.

I agree that forgive and forget, don't have to go hand in hand.

[oceanica]

Yeah Mackenzie Phillips... that's what got me thinking about this. She was on that old tv show "one day at a time".
Raven, so sorry you had to go through that... what a horrible thing to endure.

[aclee]

As a comment to Raven's situation with her brother...I have the same situation with my sister in laws. I'm constantly catching them red handed doing things to hurt me, talking behind my back etc. They are not nice people. Every time I'm told, I need to be the bigger person and let go. Keep the peace etc.

I guess in relation to this, I don't forget, but I do forgive, because shouldn't I have endless opportunities to move beyond their hurt? Shouldn't I have endless opportunities to live my life without them clouding it? I think I should. I won't let their choices etc impact my pursuit of happiness...no matter how hard they try. I guess I sort of feel like if I just keep forgiving then I don't give power to their hurt. They won't "own" what they do, so why should I give it any power over my life...If they ever hurt me so much, I can't forgive any more then they have won, they have controlled that aspect of my life...

[momraine]

For me I had to forgive members of my family not for them, but for me. Some I keep in "light" contact with (e-mails only) and some I have no contact whatsoever. I also protect my children from these toxic people. The forgiveness was for me, not them, in fact they probably don't know. I did not tell them, since they will not admit to what they did. The bitterness will eat away at you like a cancer. I realized that even though I was an adult and now responible for my own life and happiness, I was letting the past still control me and take away my happiness. I decided that I was going to put it behind me and move on with MY live, living it the way I want to. Part of that process was forgiving them and letting go of the bitterness and the anger that was poisoning me. I also have religious views on the topic, but will save those for if someone asks. LOL

[soupnazi]

The part of forgiveness that I have trouble with is when it involves loved ones who continue with the same injurious, bad behavior. Am I being a doormat when I continually forgive my brother for intentionally hurting me? He does it again and again and again...and every single time he does or says something outrageous, I'm reminded by my mother that I should forgive him...once again. Where does it stop??

If someone intentionally is hurting you then you really need to step back from that person. It's not your job to be someone's "whipping boy" so to speak. You mother is also just enabling bad behavior of your brother. His issues shouldn't be your issues.

Personally I don't care how someone is related to me. If they cannot treat me with respect then I just don't speak to them. I have several aunts, uncles & a grandmother that I have essentially removed from my life. I miss some of them, but not the drama that comes from just knowing them or being around them.

Life is to short to surround yourself with harmful people.

[Linny]

Wow! Thanks Oceanica for even bringing up this topic! I REALLY needed to read/hear many of your responses to this...and many are expressions I already have/felt...but it feels SO good to read that others feel the same way!

Raven, your comments about 'allowing them to live rent-free' in your head... It struck a nerve with me...a good nerve and made me want to use that term for myself.

Every time I'm told, I need to be the bigger person and let go. Keep the peace etc.--aclee

This is what's been happening with a relative of mine...who does nothing but eventually cause grief to those around them. We honestly have come to the conclusion their poisoned and vicious lies, constant drama, confusion and ill-will is something our family refuses to be a part of anymore. In short, how could *we* keep the peace, if the person who's at fault obviously *doesn't want peace or anything close to it*? When the behaviors affected the lives of our children, THAT was the final straw.

Comes a time when behaviors occur over and over again and we just have to back off and say, "No, period."

Sorry for the ramble, but this has been good for me! Thanks!

Sincerely,

Linny

[DannieAS]

I think part of why we all have a tendency to cringe at "forgiveness" is because either growing up in our church, or in some other arena we have this picture in our minds that when we forgive, we're supposed to be all cheery and buddy buddy with the person that has wronged us.

I had this picture in my mind....then I was sexually assaulted at knifepoint. I was not much into a forgiving mood after that....there were also a couple of people from my church that knew about it and before I had gone through my grieveing process yet, the topic of forgiveness was being hammered to me...that's the only way I'll move on....to the point that I grew to resent everything I ever thought about forgiveness.

There were some dark times after that where bitterness and hate consumed my thinking. Religiously I went into the realm of thought "if he repents and ends up in heaven, I want to go to hell...gladly" It was not a nice time in my life.

Then I became aware of the concept that forgiveness isn't about being chummy with people that have wronged you, it's about letting go of the anger, not letting it dominate and ruin your life. I was able to accept that.

To this day, I don't say that I've forgiven my attacker, but that I've let my anger go and he doesn't warrant any of my energy....and I'm happy with that and have led a productive and happy life since then.

This experience has taught me that you also don't pound other people to go quickly into forgiving mode....sometimes people need to go through all the other emotions first before they are ready.