[Stormster]

Binky you really got me thinking. LEvels of rejection vary whether it be related to adoption or not. E's mother and I were very very close throughout the last five months of her pregnancy. We cooked together, had sleepovers, did doc appts. etc....I was very involved with the birth and held him soon after. He spent his first night with her and then she handed him lovingly to us the next morning. All in all it was an emotionally smoothe transition.

I hate to paint all situations with the same brush so I have to wonder how our situation is identical to a child who has a different, harsher, more rejecting beginning. (If that even affects that child based on his innate personality).

I saw a show on 20/20 about a little girl who was badly neglected and lived through a knife attack that left her paralyzed and she is fully bonded to her foster (now parents) and a wonderful, positive roll model for everyone around her. So that's her.

I still think that bio parents can really mess their kids up just as much as any primal wound can. It's just different.

Also if you met my son you'd know he's FULLY ready to pack his bags and spend the night on the playground with or without me. I'm no expert but I would say he's got a very very healthy personality in every respect.

[belleinblue1978]

Speaking as an adopted person, I did have a HUGE fear of rejection and it took a LONG time for me to realize that if I messed up my mom and dad weren't going to decide they didn't love me anymore.

My mom and dad are awesome people and would do anything for me and I'm really lucky to have them. Would I have been the same way if I grew up in my biological family? Maybe, who knows if it is my personality or my placement.

I know a lot of you don't believe in the primal wound and that's fine. I don't think though that calling something like that hogwash and saying it is untrue is is very productive though. For every healthy, happy adopted person there is a sad one that does feel a hole in their heart. For that matter, even someone that appears to be happy and healthy and well adjusted may not be. You learn to put on a fake face after being told twenty million times that you should be happy and consider yourself lucky because you didn't have to grow up in your first family, because people automatically assume that they are completely terrible people alot of times.

Your children may not have those issues, I hope that they don't, but it really isn't fair to act like no one does and that the idea is crap, because it is very real for some people.

I know there are things that are true for adoptive parents that some people think aren't, and I'm sure you don't want to hear your truths called hogwash. Perhaps saying you don't feel it is true for you child/spouse/siblling/friend whatever is less insulting to those who do feel it is true.

[SoniaRose]

Thank you very much for your thoughts, belleinblue. I suppose I shouldn't be posting in the Adoptive Parent section.

Now that I have had more time to think about the original question, I realize that "separation anxiety" probably refers to when the baby is left with a caregiver. It's been a long time since I was a mom to little kids (my bio kids are now 19, 23, and 25). I was a stay at home mom, and I took my kids everywhere with me, but when I had to leave them with a friend or relative, they barely seemed to miss me at all. On the other hand, I belonged to a mommy and me group with other stay at home moms, and I know a number of the kids would cry nonstop if the mom left the room. I think it was just the personality of the kids (all the kids were bio).

Somewhere I heard that adopted children grow up to be either clingy & needy, OR emotionally detached. It seems that there can be a wide range of effects in the adopted child. We are all different.

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by SoniaRose

Thank you very much for your thoughts, belleinblue. I suppose I shouldn't be posting in the Adoptive Parent section.

Now that I have had more time to think about the original question, I realize that "separation anxiety" probably refers to when the baby is left with a caregiver. It's been a long time since I was a mom to little kids (my bio kids are now 19, 23, and 25). I was a stay at home mom, and I took my kids everywhere with me, but when I had to leave them with a friend or relative, they barely seemed to miss me at all. On the other hand, I belonged to a mommy and me group with other stay at home moms, and I know a number of the kids would cry nonstop if the mom left the room. I think it was just the personality of the kids (all the kids were bio).

Somewhere I heard that adopted children grow up to be either clingy & needy, OR emotionally detached. It seems that there can be a wide range of effects in the adopted child. We are all different.

Why wouldn't you post here? Our voices as adopted adults are valuable. Posting in other sections is actually encouraged, if we didn't venture out of our own section, how would we learn anything?

[binkybear]

Originally Posted by Stormster

Binky you really got me thinking. LEvels of rejection vary whether it be related to adoption or not. E's mother and I were very very close throughout the last five months of her pregnancy. We cooked together, had sleepovers, did doc appts. etc....I was very involved with the birth and held him soon after. He spent his first night with her and then she handed him lovingly to us the next morning. All in all it was an emotionally smoothe transition.

I hate to paint all situations with the same brush so I have to wonder how our situation is identical to a child who has a different, harsher, more rejecting beginning. (If that even affects that child based on his innate personality).

I saw a show on 20/20 about a little girl who was badly neglected and lived through a knife attack that left her paralyzed and she is fully bonded to her foster (now parents) and a wonderful, positive roll model for everyone around her. So that's her.

I still think that bio parents can really mess their kids up just as much as any primal wound can. It's just different.

Also if you met my son you'd know he's FULLY ready to pack his bags and spend the night on the playground with or without me. I'm no expert but I would say he's got a very very healthy personality in every respect.

That's where I'm coming from, it's all so individual. I personally hate the whole "clump" thing we do now with everything. Clump people into this box, clump kids into that box...fix the clump this way, that way. I understand people want answers for why things are the way they are in their lives, but man if Oprah didn't start something way back in the day with the inner child, childhood, birth experience, my parents fault ideas.

We all have a story no matter who we are. Common denominators don't require common outcomes in life, it's not a math problem with set in stone ___ + ____ = _____. We'd never grow, move forward or progress as a people if it were like that (regardless of adoption).

I was born under rough circumstances. From a parental point I'm guessing my mom could have viewed me as a fragile baby she could have lost and tucked me away like The Secret Garden or something, but instead I was just a kid who had this story about her birth. It was what it was and I pretty much always knew about it. If an expert came along with a theory about all babies born under the same circumstances would I look to that for validation of some kind, probably not. That's me.

That's not at all to say I'm invalidating individual issues, concerns, fears, loss. Some people need that extra something to explain a "why" in life and others just don't need that. It's fine by me until it becomes the label for all within the similar circumstance.

Overall I'm just trying to say it IS individual, imo, and the experts are only experts until the next expert comes along.

[lovemy2boys]

Originally Posted by binkybear

That's where I'm coming from, it's all so individual. I personally hate the whole "clump" thing we do now with everything. Clump people into this box, clump kids into that box...fix the clump this way, that way. I understand people want answers for why things are the way they are in their lives, but man if Oprah didn't start something way back in the day with the inner child, childhood, birth experience, my parents fault ideas.

We all have a story no matter who we are. Common denominators don't require common outcomes in life, it's not a math problem with set in stone ___ + ____ = _____. We'd never grow, move forward or progress as a people if it were like that (regardless of adoption).

I was born under rough circumstances. From a parental point I'm guessing my mom could have viewed me as a fragile baby she could have lost and tucked me away like The Secret Garden or something, but instead I was just a kid who had this story about her birth. It was what it was and I pretty much always knew about it. If an expert came along with a theory about all babies born under the same circumstances would I look to that for validation of some kind, probably not. That's me.

That's not at all to say I'm invalidating individual issues, concerns, fears, loss. Some people need that extra something to explain a "why" in life and others just don't need that. It's fine by me until it becomes the label for all within the similar circumstance.

Overall I'm just trying to say it IS individual, imo, and the experts are only experts until the next expert comes along.

I couldn't agree more.

And Sonia, of course you should be here. Whether we all agree or disagree on this issue or any other...whether we are on the same or different sides of the triad...everyone's insight is valued.

[Leigh131313]

See, I'm not looking to BE productive. I think that kids are kids. Some have issues, some don't. Some adoptive kids have issues surrounding their adoption - some don't. Some will have anxiety issues with or without adoption. I think to stick it under the "well he's adopted" label is hogwash.hogwash. hogwash. hogwash.

what can I say - i'm having a counterproductive day today.

[loveajax]

Sonia and Belle, I value your input. I live with an adoptee who doesn't "buy" the Primal Wound stuff, but that doesn't mean it doesn't help others. I always say whatever works for you, great.

My problem with the Primal Wound isn't that I don't believe babies aren't bonded with their moms (of course, they are). I also believe that my daughter WAS sad when we first brought her home...I remember the second night we were home, she was literally inconsolable. But then of course she did bond and attach to us. I have a really hard time believing that those few days when she was adjusting will be "outcome determinative" for the rest of her life. I think a lot of the Primal Wound stuff is helpful if it gets people realizing that there are losses, etc. associated with adoption and more open to talking about it, etc. But to me that's because adoption is what it is, not related back to a newborn's "separation" -- I actually don't think my daughter really will remember that.

On the other hand, I was reading Nancy Verrier's site to see what she recommended for adoptive parents, and some of it really just seems like such gobblygook to me. It also to me emphasizes too much how "different" your adopted child is and somehow parenting an adopted child is like radically different? I just haven't had that experience yet (but of course DD is only 3). What do people think of this list?

WHAT ADOPTIVE PARENTS CAN DO

• Deal with the reality of the adoptive situation: different from biological family; it's parenting plus!
• Mother can be alert to and empathic to signs of loss and grieving.
• Realize that it will be more difficult for her to know what to do for this particular child without genetic markers ... be especially aware.
• If possible, stay home with child; he doesn't need one more disappearing mother.
• Understand child's coping mechanisms: acting out or compliant. Compliant doesn't mean untroubled. Acting out child will demonstrate "wrong mother" idea by making adoptive mom wrong about many things. This interfaces with his need for control.
• Try to understand the difficulty in growing up without seeing oneself reflected anywhere. Verbalize.
• Celebrate birthday before the actual day. (Birthday may be separation day ... child sad or angry.)
• Don't be late picking up child from school, activities, etc. (triggers abandonment).
• Fear often keeps child from letting in love. Be patient; try not to feel rejected. (It's not personal.)
• Tell child about adoption before she knows what it means.
• As she gets older, answer her questions honestly. (Questions may be acted out, rather than verbalized)
• Don't speak for anyone else (i.e., birthmother). Never say: (1) "Your birthmother loved you so much she wanted you to have a good home." Even if true, this makes absolutely no sense to a child. One doesn't give away what one loves.
• If you can, stay in touch with birth family. Child needs mirroring and genetic markers. Honor promises. This also goes for birth parents. (Step families can do it; so can you!)
• Learn to understand the differences between behavior (acting out or compliant) and the child's true personality. Behavior will often be different outside family. Easier for others to discern personality.
• Acknowledge, respect, and value the differences between adoptee and other members of the family.
• Encourage child's talents and interests, even if they are different from yours.
• Because the child will not be able to verbalize his pain, look for other forms of communication: art, poetry, play, and projective identification (i.e., He will communicate his feelings by behavior that will make you feel them: angry, enraged, sad, inadequate, unworthy, confused, chaotic, fearful, rejected...
• Behavior often metaphor for beliefs: feels stolen, may steal; living a lie, may lie; people disappear, may hoard food, etc. Verbalize this for him, so that he will know you understand: "I wonder if..."
• Recognize the core issues: abandonment, loss, rejection, trust, intimacy, guilt and shame, mastery and control, and identity.
• Learn to understand child's anger as a cover for pain: Empathize with the pain.
• Never threaten abandonment, no matter how provocative the child becomes.
• Acknowledge the child's feelings. Never say, "You shouldn't feel that way. Feelings come from the unconscious and are valid. Teach child to find appropriate ways to express those feelings.
• Allow the child to be herself. Withdraw expectations which do not fit her personality or abilities.
• Do not try to take the place of the birthmother. Even if he doesn't talk about her, she is real to him. You are a different person and very important in his life.
• Don't try to take away your child's pain. Acknowledge it, try to understand it, validate it, help her put it into words, and give her ways to work it through.
• Adoptees are often diagnosed with ADD. This may be a result of the trauma and hypervigilence. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Parents and teachers will need understanding and patience.
• Prepare child for changes in routine. Fears surprises (like disappearance of mother).
• Because of interruption of natural order, child may have difficulty with cause and effect or consequences. This is especially difficult during adolescence. Needs to be reinforced early.
• Child needs strong boundaries and limits, even though may fight against them. Needs to feel safe, contained, and cared for. Very important to be fair and consistent.
• Father will not be having same experience as mother. Needs to empathize and support mother.
• Both need support group to compare notes with other adoptive parents and to avoid isolation.

http://www.nancyverrier.com/img/buy_comi.jpg

[Leigh131313]

geez loveajax.....talk about hogwash. Yes I said it again!

Some of that is like parenting for dummies (cuz I know so many parents -bio or otherwise -who threaten their kids with abandonment, please) - and some of it is just ridiculous.

[binkybear]

Huh. I can see that list annoying everyone across the board in some of it's blunt statements of "fact"...the AP, Adoptee and Bparents. While on the other hand some of it seems to be, like Leigh said, parenting 101.

Celebrating a birthday on a different day.... a little too Mad Hatter's Tea Party for me, won't be going there anytime soon.

[lovemy2boys]

The ADD/Adoption connection chaps my hide.

Just what my kid needs...some excuse from a teacher to use to explain away why he looks out the window during class...

*DISCLAIMER* These are my own personal feelings on this one particular item...It does not mean I either agree with or discredit Verrier's theory...

[SoniaRose]

I find it encouraging when adoptive parents try to appreciate the feelings of the adult adoptee. I understand that we adoptees cannot all be "clumped" into one group. I have only read parts of the Primal Wound because I don't agree with all the conclusions.

I agree that most of Nancy Verrier's recommendations are basic Parenting Skills 101, but I was taken aback to see the correlation between being late to pick up a child with abandonment issues. I had never thought about that before -- I can remember so clearly how horrible I felt standing on the street after ballet class waiting and waiting for her to drive up -- I wanted to disappear into myself -- I hated standing there and wondering where she was -- car after car would drive by, and where was my mom -- all the other moms came, and my mom wasn't there. I hated waiting, and I can still feel the anxiety. She valued shopping more than she valued me! As a consequence, I promised myself that I would never be late picking up my own kids. (My amom was late a lot.)

Of course, I realize that no one wants to be left waiting, and this is not only an issue for the adopted child. But now I see how this might have contributed to feelings of abandonment in me. This is why I don't like to read books about adoption. I don't like to psychoanalyze myself -- I'm a human with insecurities and emotions just like everyone else -- but I have no doubt that having been adopted has influenced my life in many ways.

[Leigh131313]

Sonia,

Your example actually shows my point beautifully. I remember feeling TERRIBLY anxious when my parents were late. I was embarassed, scared and very lonely. I wasn't adopted.....

I can understand you connecting the dot to adoption - but what shall I connect my dot to?


I think kids are all different with different sensitivities. My brother would have just walked home and not thought twice about it....

I just don't see it as an across the board adoption issue.

[binkybear]

Originally Posted by lovemy2boys

The ADD/Adoption connection chaps my hide.

Just what my kid needs...some excuse from a teacher to use to explain away why he looks out the window during class...

*DISCLAIMER* These are my own personal feelings on this one particular item...It does not mean I either agree with or discredit Verrier's theory...

Couldn't at all be LTD (lousy teacher disorder) now could it...'course not, it's the kid's fault and now we've got adoption as the reason, yay. Easy peasy for those in charge to put 1+1 together and get their nicely prepackaged expertly designed "2". Nice neat no extra thought required...it's all done for us, thank goodness for complete strangers who can see into our souls and tell us who and what we are...and we just take their word for it.

(not saying ADD doesn't exist, I'm well aware it does..just again speaking to the idea of "adoptees are "OFTEN" diagnoised with". Them's fightin' words )

[lovemy2boys]

HA! LTD...too funny.

Last year, when AJ was in KG, he spent some time picking lint off the carpet during circle time...

So his teacher says "Have you ever had him tested for ADD?"

Umm...nooo

"Now I know he's adopted..."

Don't even go there...

Funny thing is, the reason why she even brought it up was because she said that AJ reminded her a great deal of her son who was dx'd ADD in the 1st grade.

Fair enough...But is your son adopted? NO? Then why bring it up with my kid? And ya know? I'm open minded! If it was something that may be adoption related, then I would totally be receptive to it...but not this.