[jules17]

As usual, I think Storm says it best.

[KarynB]

Originally Posted by thanksgivingmom

karla...there are different studies that show lots of different things as being "best for" children.

Breast feeding is "best" for the children. However many MANY children grow up healthy, bonded, and perfectly adjusted, normal, whatever you want to call it from formula feeding.

Ok,well, I guess I am going to jump in here now. In full disclosure though - our situation was international with no birth mother involvement.

And TGM, you know I love ya, but I have to respectfully completely disagree with you here . There is a BIG difference in educators thinking SAH parenting is better than working or the other way around - to health science professionals agreeing unanimously that breastmilk is best. NEVER has any study ever shown formula to be even close nutritionally to breastmilk.

And yes, many children grow up healthy with formula, but many babies also aren't affected by mother's ingesting alcohol while pregnant, while others have serious effects. Similarily, lots of babies have serious effects of ingesting formula too. In fact, even SIDS has been traced back to formula use. 1.5 million babies worldwide (according to WHO/UNICEF) die from formula use. Granted - many of these are in the developing world and due to unsafe water etc but still lots of side effects here in NA too.

I have nursed our son for 2 years now. If we adopt again, I will breastfeed again. I have lived (and am still living with) attachment issues, and plan to NEVER go there again.

And for the record - inducing lactation does NOT mean taking hormones, that is a very common misperception that is out there. Many adoptive moms have very little supply until they see there baby for the first time, and then we produce the SAME hormones as a woman who has given birth, and the milk just comes in. Some women lactate spontaniously without any initial prep. Not trying to make it sound like it all "just happens", it actually takes hours and hours of work, but a big part of it is the hormone rush that you get.

Why do we feel such a need to seperate and clearly put each other in these boxes? You get the bio connection, I get the child rearing. I am called "this", you can't be too. That is crazy to me. Aren't we in this together?

While I respect what many of you are saying and am trying to understand where you are coming from, I have to say I really disagree and also feel sad that so many are talking about the "ick" factor. To me, that says we really have a long way to go. Male doctors in the 50's convinced women that formula feeding was superior to breastmilk and we have been culturally groomed to believe that today.

I also don't think adoptive breast feeding is for everyone, but I have to admit I do feel a bit sad when I hear about bio moms who choose not to breastfeed because of the "ick" factor, or due to inconvenience etc. They are throwing away something beautiful, and it just makes me a little sad. Just to note: I also "threw it away" with my bio DD who I had when I was 19 - I nursed her for 6 weeks and "gave up". Not trying to make myself sound "better than", just all my opinion.

Karyn

[KarynB]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Thanksgivingmom, you've said a couple really profound things on this thread that have touched me deeply, especially as a birthmother.
You've managed to hit it right on the nail, TGM. Yes, it's a raw emotion, but an absolutely honest one. I remember those feelings so vividly, those complex emotions following the actual relinquishment of my newborn son. And now 36 years later, I sit and ponder how I would have felt if ABF had been practiced back then by amoms...how would I have felt? And what comes to mind, but what I've been hesitant to put down, is exactly what you've said here. The fear of total erasure from his life, of being inconsequential, forgotten...just being seen as an incubator. Those may be irrational fears, irrational gut feelings, but they exist deep down inside.

God, it is so hard, so incredibly hard, to place one's baby for adoption. It's easy to talk about what's in the best interests of the child. But I am not a martyr...I have to do what is also best for me, so I don't become a lifelong mess. I cannot erase the fact or memories of bringing a new life into this world, nor would I want to. Those are the most precious memories I have in all of my 54 years of existence in this world. The months, days, hours, and seconds I carried my son within my body.

It took me a long time to realize that it was okay to do things that were in my best interests too. I am also a member of the human race, just as my son is. I cannot sacrifice everything, or I will become a basket-case. Call me selfish, but there are some things that I must be able to keep for myself. My biological connection to my son is one of these things. If I simply wouldn't have been able to wrap my head around the thought of ABF for my son, that doesn't mean that I am a horrible mother, that I didn't have his best interests in mind. It means that I am human, a woman with complex feelings and fears, irrational though they may be.

And this was the first thing that came to mind when I started seriously thinking about this subject. That was one of the hardest parts of relinquishment for me...my milk coming in. The doctor gave me a shot in the hospital to dry my milk up. It didn't work at all. I lactated for several months, and it was a constant reminder every single day, several times a day, of what I had lost. I was trying to adjust to not having the baby in my life. I was trying my darnest to switch my mode of thinking into the fact that he wasn't mine anymore...that he had new parents. It wasn't easy--it was the hardest thing I've ever done. The horrible grief, plus the constant reminder every time my milk dropped down, was bad enough. I just don't think I would have wanted to know that another woman, even though I had chosen for my son to become her son, was breastfeeding him at the same time my milk was leaking. As I said, I'm not a martyr or superhuman.

I hope what I've said is not offensive. I didn't intend it to be if that's how it sounds. I'm just trying to be totally honest about my gut-level emotions here. Thanks for listening...

Hey Raven,

Thanks for being so honest here. I do really understand what you are saying. I "get it" a bit better now.

But now for my own brutal honesty - can I say I feel a bit more like my younger son's mother because I nursed him? I know in my heart I did not do this out of any kind of weird selfish intention that some seem to feel it must come from, but with his best interests at heart. I was terrified of living through attachment disorder again, it is heartbreaking as well. To see these kids that you love so much who have been hurt so badly that they can't love/trust/bond, it killed a part of me for sure. Wow..not at all sure what the heck i am trying to say, so I think i'll just leave it there.

Thanks again for your post though.

[thanksgivingmom]

Karyn, I figured you'd jump in soon And I'm glad you did! To be honest, I tried to pick something "polarizing" that wouldn't be so controversial as to take this thread in a whole different direction, so I'm the first to admit that the analogies aren't exact.

My point was that I think we get into dangerous territory when we start pointing fingers and saying, "You didn't do absolutely every single thing you could ever do in the best interest of your child! BAD FIRST MOM! BAD!" (Not that anyone here IS saying that, but it can be a slippery slope).

Oh, and for the record, I was going to BF in the hospital and nurses told me No. I tried before I brought Cupcake to the hospital as well.

[nurse_reedle]

KarynB,
Thank you. I haven't taken any hormones to lactate. There are a lot of misperceptions out there...including that ABF is a recent development, when it has actually existed for centuries.

I have a lot to ponder in how to handle everything. Lots of high emotions, which I did expect to some degree.

[binkybear]

Originally Posted by Stormster

i think what it comes down to is respect for our children's birth mothers. Which one of us would want to hurt another woman so deeply (if it would). Not I.

Not I as well. I can't imagine a single person out here wanting to intentionally hurt anyone for valid or invalid reasons. The respect..true respect and thought for each other.. must be mutal from the getgo or you're looking at a life of hurt and pulling a child down into it as well.
I still don't fully understand those points I made in my last post, but again it's not my issue to dwell on.

[KarynB]

Originally Posted by thanksgivingmom

Karyn, I figured you'd jump in soon And I'm glad you did! To be honest, I tried to pick something "polarizing" that wouldn't be so controversial as to take this thread in a whole different direction, so I'm the first to admit that the analogies aren't exact.

My point was that I think we get into dangerous territory when we start pointing fingers and saying, "You didn't do absolutely every single thing you could ever do in the best interest of your child! BAD FIRST MOM! BAD!" (Not that anyone here IS saying that, but it can be a slippery slope).

Oh, and for the record, I was going to BF in the hospital and nurses told me No. I tried before I brought Cupcake to the hospital as well.

Ok, I need to start by saying I think that is disgusting. What right do the nurses have to tell you what to do with your child???? There are SO many misconceptions about breastfeeding in general, it is really sad. I've heard doctors in Africa tell nursing moms of 5 month old babies to wean - for no reason!!! They have nothing else to feed them, but 6 months is the magic cut-off age regardless. And, honestly, if nursing your baby is enough to change your mind about placing (not "you" in particular, "you" in the general sense) then adoption is maybe not the best choice at all! JMO.

And well, TGM, the thing I am learning about motherhood in general is that it mainly exists so we can tell each other what we are doing wrong and how we'd do it better (-: Just kidding, of course. I really do 100% understand if it is too emotionally hard to allow the adoptive mom to breastfeed your baby. Especially in hospital, that I can't even imagine, although I know of many situations where it has been done. But what I think is that if we are talking about "ick" or whatever, then we can learn more about it and move past that...you know?

[lovemy2boys]

Originally Posted by nurse_reedle

I really appreciate the tone everyone that doesn't agree with it is taking. Thank you for your input, even though it isn't supportive of breastfeeding.

Know what's ironic, is that on one hand, I really am supportive of breastfeeding...but for some reason, I have this weird personal "aversion" to it...

One of those things where I don't want to do it, but I WANT to want to...

One day I'll get to the root of it

[thanksgivingmom]

Originally Posted by KarynB

But what I think is that if we are talking about "ick" or whatever, then we can learn more about it and move past that...you know?

I getcha. And my "ick" is more an emotional "ick"....not sure how to describe it....it's not against the general idea or practice of breastfeeding. Just the phsyical/emotional reaction I have to someone else breasfeeding my child.

I think we're good and respect each others points and perspectives

[KarynB]

I think most of us have some natural aversion to it, you know?

I mean - to actual picture being a baby breastfeeding from my mom - um, no thanks! EEWWWW.... But that has nothing to do with adoption. It has to do with how our society has sexualized the breast, and so to us it has those "sexual connotations" you know?

[binkybear]

I think we're putting too much emphasis on the boob here when it comes to motherhood and children. I probably won't be able to BF but it's not going to invalidate me as a mother, just like if I could do it perfectly it wouldn't invalidate the woman who carried him/her for those many months. I don't need nor would I want BF to erase her...how could that one action do that when the entire living breathing creation in front of me will be from her body....forever without change of anykind to that fact.
Starting to gas up again....time to let go. Ugh I hate it when my brain goes blah on me.

[aclee]

okay...are their any bmom's that WOULD be okay with BF here?

Many women are sorry they couldn't "carry" their adopted child...feel their first movement etc. That part doesn't bother me as much as not being able BF.

[thanksgivingmom]

I don't want to speak for her, but I think Mommy24 said earlier in the thread that she'd be okay with it

[jules17]

Karyn said something about the breasts being so sexualized, and that is an excellent point.

I have had (and hated) DD cups since I was 15. It sure would be nice for them to actually have some purpose.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by KarynB

But now for my own brutal honesty - can I say I feel a bit more like my younger son's mother because I nursed him? I know in my heart I did not do this out of any kind of weird selfish intention that some seem to feel it must come from, but with his best interests at heart.

Karyn, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I totally get what you're saying about feeling more connected with your son thru the nursing experience. I'm not saying that ABF is wrong, by any means. I'm just saying what my gut-level reactions and emotions would have been if ABF had been commonly practiced by amoms back when I relinquished.

I think ABF can be powerfully healing, too, especially for amoms who've experienced infertility. What an awesome thing to do, especially when your body has betrayed you in its fertility. I know some of the pain involved...after my son was born, I never had another child. I have secondary infertility (well, actually now I'm in perimenopause going into full-blown menopause soon).

As a birthmom, I wanted my son to bond with his new mom (his new dad, too!). I prayed for this every night before I went to bed. When I started communicating with him as a teenager (his parents originated the reunion process), I always carefully phrased everything in a way that would emphasize and encourage this bond with his parents.

Even though I would have had the "ick" factor deep down inside, I'm positive that I would have encouraged ABF with my son if it had been carefully and thoroughly explained to me. You know, like if his mom had sat down with me and gone over all the advantages, including how it would help the attachment process go smoother. It also would have been a blessing (in this hypothetical scenario) if his mom could acknowledge any conflicting emotions or fears that I was having about ABF. Just saying something like, "I know you might feel sad about this, and that's a valid feeling," would have gone a long way. I think a lot of the "ick" factor would have been removed if his mom was able to tell me that she was doing it for our son's health and well-being, not as a way to help her remove any reminder of me from his life and existence. Does that make any sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right or not.

I guess to sum it up...the issue of ABF for me as a bmom would include both emotional factors and knowledge. If I was able to learn about all the advantages and reasons behind ABF, I think any negative emotional response would be tempered by this knowledge. I think the key is communication between the two mothers.