[karsonsmom]

This post has the potential to be a hot one, so I wish all "peace" and please be kind to me, too...I do want opinions from all sides of the triad though. My adaughter was born to my stepdaughter, some of you may remember, and I'll call her, the bmom, J. J has lived with S, for several years (he is not the bdad of my daughter) and they have a son together, whom I'll call C. S also has a little girl from a former marriage, whom he sees on a not-too-frequent basis. They have just moved to our small town. J really doesn't show any particular interest in K, my daughter, which is fine, but sometimes HER mother, the bgrandmom, will start up some sort of thing to entice K over. She likes to pretend that my husband (her exhusband) and I didn't adopt this child and so she just creates this other "reality" and goes along telling friends and distant relatives," Oh, and this is K, J's daughter..." as if she is parenting her and we don't exist. As K puts it, "Here we go again. Time for the C and K are both J's kids show again". I have recently put a stop to all contact with bgrandmom with the exception of family gatherings where my husband and I are also present (birthday parties for the grandchildren...in addition to C, there are 2 other grands from another stepdaughter). K just keeps her distance from bgrandmom.
Here's the current drama: In the new house they are renting, J and S have a "bedroom" which their son, S (who is about to be 5) proudly told me belongs to his SISTERS, ___ and K! (The half sister he has from his dad's first marriage and MY DAUGHTER). We went thru a round of several therapists years ago who were adamant that K refer to J as her SISTER, which legally she is (her half-sister, as they now legally have the same father). J is her bmom, but K absolutely DOES NOT want ANY of us referring to her as such and especially does not want the grandkids to be told that J is her bmom. J has pictures of "their 3 kids, ___,C and K" in the foyer, as if they parent all 3. K has not spent a night with her in more than a decade and the idea that there needs to be a BEDROOM for her is ridiculous! Furthermore, it would create in K's mind (I have not allowed her over there yet, she doesn't particuliarly want to go, and doesn't know of the pictures/bedroom, etc.) an expectation that she is supposed to spend time there and pretend to be J's daughter. J is having a birthday party for her son soon and expects that we will all be there. We will not be taking K, as I have made plans for her to spend the weekend with a family member out of town to avoid alll this. We will be there because this little boy is our grandson and we love him. We also love J, but I am very angry over the all this. WE made it clear a few years ago that upon the advise of the therapists, she and her mother (bgrandmom) would observe the fact that she is K's sister and enjoy that relationship with her or she could have no relationship at all. Under the circumstances, it would not be possible for us to have it any other way and have an emotionally healthy environment for K and ourselves. J and her mother have been telling C that K is his sister, not his aunt. For that matter, they were telling the other grands that, but they are tiny and I think that has stopped per the other stepdaughter. So this is their way of circumventing the groundrules. This HURTS my daughter!!! A family member suggested K be the one to tell them how much she is hurt. I asked what she thought of that and she said, "I think that is wrong because I am 11 and I am a child. Children shouldn't have to be the ones to say this stuff". I agree. What do you guys think? Sorry for the ranting and the length. Thank you so much.

[feelingreyt]

This sounds like a very tough situation for your dd and your entire family.
Your daughter is right , a child should not have to be the one to put a stop to this drama. IMO, you should tell your stepdaughter that her refering to K as her child is putting a wedge between her and your dd. Explain to her that, yes, K is her bdd, but she is not parenting her and it really upsets K when she refers to her this way.
Tell her that if she continues to do so you will have to stop ALL contact as this situation is not healthy for K.

The thing is, IF K wanted to be refered as your dd and her bmom's dd, that would make all the difference in the world. But the fact is, as you stated, K doesn't like it AT ALL. If your stepdaughter really wants what is best for K, then she would respect her wishes and be whatever it is K needs her to be. Any positive relationship they could have has got to be better than the one they have now, where K feels uncomfortable. As a parent, J should understand this.
This are just my thoughts on this....hope it helped!

BTW, we are in a Open Relative Adoption(dh's family) as well and we live in the same area. It ain't easy, thats for sure!
It bugs me when the biogreatgrandmother and bgrandmother refer to my son as his bmom's son. They will introduce him like she is parenting him or something, and I'm just standing there holding him while she's gone to WHEREVER and will be right back! Of course, everyone they introduce him to knows the situation, but it still grates on my nerves. The most recent time was at the funeral home and a lot of these people knew the situation, but I didn't know them. I felt really awkward. I was soooo glad that we didn't stay long!

[RavenSong]

I don't have a clue as to what the answer should be in this situation. But I do have a HUGE problem with cutting off your stepdaughter from her FATHER if she doesn't stop referring to DD as her daughter. There has to be another solution besides terminating the parent-child relationship between J and her dad, IMHO...

[karsonsmom]

feelinggreyt...your situation sounds very much like mine! It is amazing to me that they say and do these things!!

I should mention that J (bmom) is 31, so we are not talking about a young person.

Raven...I totally agree that she should not be cut off from her dad. In fact, we make efforts to see her and her son during the day while dd is in school so that we can enjoy their company without "complications" and she has never noticed that this is what we are doing. If we are forced by HER choices to discontinue contact between K and J, then we will continue to see J and her son somehow. I really don't see how we would ever completely cut off all contact, as we are a close and large family, claiming members far and wide on all sides of the family. I rather see it as a more deliberate version of what I have been doing over the last few months, which is manuevering things so that when she visits us (which isn't often anyway), she just doesn't have the opportunity to speak to K alone. And she absolutely doesn't have the opportunity to take K away from the house. But I haven't SAID this to J, I just haven't let her...the couple of times she's wanted her to go somewhere, I've made an excuse/that sort of thing.

This became necessary when, the last time I let her go with J to visit bgrandmom early this summer for a couple of hours, J told K that she could "come and live with her if she wanted to when she's a little older". Right.

It is time for me to have a discussion with J. Her dad says it is a waste of breathe and will only upset me. He says he's already talked to her a couple of years ago (he did) and that it is hopeless to do so again. She's just like her mother and will do what she wants regardless of what's best for K or anyone else. He will support whatever I decide.

So what do I say to someone who is not capable of seeing the world thru anyone else's eyes, as one of the therapist's said? I don't think it is harmful (it is neutral, I think) for her to have rare, brief family-type visits where she is not allowed to try to speak to K alone (she doesn't refer to her as daughter openly in front of us). Do you guys think so? But I don't know....the complication of her having told the son this is his sister (over and over again, K says) just sets up a situation where K is burdened by being expected to act a certain way or do certain "sisterly" things. It gives her a job. What do I say to J?

The whole thing began when I visited several therapists, trying to find a way to include J and her mom in dd's life, in the most appropriate way. I was told in no uncertain terms that it smacked of "incestuous" tones to have her be "mommy J", while dd had been calling the dh "daddy" (My granddaddy is my daddy, sort of thing.) The roles had to be clearly defined, and we were told by all of them to COMPLETELY cut off all contact with bmom/her family. Well, we didn't believe we should do that! She is my stepdaughter, for pete's sake! K was delighted with the idea that J could be her special sister forever! This was a chance for J to get to have a loving and close bond with her for a lifetime...but she has blown the opportunity, IMO.

[MamaS]

Well, you and I had the same situation, but handled it totally differently. I don't have any advice, but I do have empathy -- familial adoption is the hardest thing to do.
When I adopted my grandson, nothing changed for him, except the name listed as "mother" on his birth certificate -- and he hasn't seen that yet. He still calls his bmom and bdad "mom and dad" and calls me his "Mimi". He lives with me and mom and dad drop by for regular visits. They understand that they are allowed to visit as long as they respect my authority and my decisions. They know that they have no legal rights. So far (two years) this arrangement has worked out.
Your problem seems to be that bmom and bgrandmom do NOT understand, do NOT respect, and do NOT believe you when you say that you will end contact. You may have to actually DO IT -- then when they see that their actions have results that they do not like, you can renegotiate visits and relationships. I wish you luck.

[karsonsmom]

DD is embarrassed, frankly, that J is her bmom. She is embarrassed BY J, I guess is more correct. She isn't embarrassed by adoption (she says she intends to adopt when she grows up, too) but wants the whole world to forget that J was first her mother.
I have so far not said these words to J as they seemed hurtful and perhaps needlessly so. I am now thinking that I may have to use them as subtlety has never worked with her before. Thoughts?
What I don't plan on ever telling her is that K made me promise that if "something happened" to both dh and myself, and plans a,b,and c didn't work out for her guardianship, that she would go to foster care rather than being "given back to J or bgrandmom". That is sooo sad. And so enlightening about her feelings.

[yehudit]

What does your husband have to say about this? It may carry more weight coming from him.

Good luck,

[Hadley2]

Working on family (niece) adoption here, too. We've had fd over three years (long story), adoption should get filed and finalized very soon (we hope).

It's really tough. OTOH, I think it is healthy to be honest about the facts of the situation: "I gave birth to K and she is your halfsister by birth but grandma and grandpa adopted her and so she is really now your cousin." C may be too young to get all that, but eventually.... I don't think it would be healthy to make the birth a family secret or keep it from the other grandchildren. That I'm sure would bring more toxicity with it than honesty.

OTOH, it is K's story and she has a right to keep it close to her.

OTOH, some things just are, and we have to live with them and in the long run it's better to say, OK, that's how it is, it has no power over me now that I've said it, I can move on.

OTOH, it sounds as K is at a sensitive stage of life where she doesn't need to deal with such things. She knows it, she can sort through it later when there aren't so many other changes in herself to deal with.

As for the introductions, I would make it clear to them that if they introduce K as a daughter, you will pipe with "and we're so glad we've adopted her!" Difficult for you and K, I know, but it puts everything right back at them so that they will absolutely understand that they can't tell the truth without telling the truth.

As for the photos, if stepdaughter can get upfront about the adoption or id's it as her sister, I see little wrong with displaying photo, sending the message to K that although she didn't parent her she has a special place in her heart...that may consciously bug or embarrass K now, but I think it is something that, if not there, might hurt more and longer.

As for telling stepdaughter that she is an embarrassment, I don't think it is necessary to give that reason. I think it suffices to say that K does not want stepdaughter talking about her as a daughter, period, and is not currently comfortable with sharing her birthstory with people outside the family. That it is more K's story than stepdaughter's and if stepdaughter cares about K and how she feels about her at all, she will respect that. If stepdaughter wants to argue it, just tell her that, right or wrong, that is how K feels and if she wants to keep any connection to her at all, she will need to respect her feelings.

So, how's that for a wiffle-waffle answer?

I hadn't thought, in our case, of the younger cousins who are cousins no matter how you slice it. The half-sisters on each side are older, teen and young adult, make a pretty good effort for that age group, especially long distance, but aren't really into being full-fledged sisters, either--more a phone call on a birthday if they remember, a holiday gift and/or call, that sort of thing. She has two half-brothers whose father does not want contact. I'm not even sure if the boys know about her (their sister might not tell them, IDK).

For her part, it seems like too much to deal with, really. She likes to know that they are there, who they are, but the effort to establish relationships is beyond what she wants now. First mother still signs notes "mom," knows better although she is incompetent, we tend to let it go with compassion. If she were on the scene and not long distance, that would probably be a different story. There is no direct contact.

It sounds as if you are a truly caring person who has been negotiating all these issues very well up to now...certainly dealing with a difficult situation with more level-headedness than I might have in the same situation. Good luck with this one.

[feelingreyt]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I don't have a clue as to what the answer should be in this situation. But I do have a HUGE problem with cutting off your stepdaughter from her FATHER if she doesn't stop referring to DD as her daughter. There has to be another solution besides terminating the parent-child relationship between J and her dad, IMHO...

I don't believe that contact should end between father and daughter. BUT I do think that if the OP really wants her stepdd to understand how this is affecting K, she may have to end contact between these 2(J & K). I'm not saying forever either. Just until J realizes how her actions are causing K a lot of emotional turmoil.
I believe that K saying she would rather go into foster care than to ever live with her bmom or bgrandma says A LOT!

[jren]

Wow, I'm confused as an adult - can't imagine how your DD is dealing with all of this! It's sad that K can't have a relationship with J as her birthmom (and call her that), and also with her bio siblings without J and J's mom trying to turn it into something more b/c now K loses out of being part of the extended family as well. Sorry you're dealing with all of this - don't have any suggestions short of just having you reassure K of her importance in your life as your daughter.

[binkybear]

Originally Posted by jren

Wow, I'm confused as an adult - can't imagine how your DD is dealing with all of this! It's sad that K can't have a relationship with J as her birthmom (and call her that), and also with her bio siblings without J and J's mom trying to turn it into something more b/c now K loses out of being part of the extended family as well. Sorry you're dealing with all of this - don't have any suggestions short of just having you reassure K of her importance in your life as your daughter.

What I was thinking too. You're not asking for advice and opinions on what's already been decided inside of the family, you're wanting to know how to go forward with it all...but it all goes back to your original plan of how to address/name each person. Tough situation and I truly feel for you all eqaully, you each have feelings about it all. wow.
I can't help but thnking to myself that it's a shame that therapsits went and mucked things up for you all, that there really didn't need to be that other element placed into your lives when there wasn't a need or issue. You guys have a story, it's not a simple one, but it probably didn't need to go to that place. Grandparent adoption is pretty common, I wonder why they took a pretty common idea and turned it into a struggle for you all. It almost makes it looks as if something wrong did happen, with the advised lying and all. The truth is what it is, it might be messy but it's easier to remember and never get wrong...the lies are always harder to keep straight. I question those therapists and wish only the best for your family.

[karsonsmom]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies..they are so thoughtful and helpful! Just a note of clarification for binkybear and any other who might see us as "lying"...I am K's mother and dh is her father. That is her truth. J is her bmom and no one has ever told her differently. I (and I believe the therapists who shared there opinion earlier on) believe that it is entirely appropriate that IF ASKED at some point in the future (presumably when they are old enough to understand) by the grands, the answer would be "Yes, your aunt K did grow in Aunt J's uterus (speaking of factual info and all) and then came to be our child". WE (K and her parents) are not the ones who have a reality issue. This is her reality. It is fact. I do not mean to diminish her role as first parent...I struggled for the first several months of this child's life to assist J in parenting her. I desperately wanted for both of them to be mother and child forever. It was not MY choice nor was it K's for J to make the choices she did that lead us to where we are today. (I do believe there is a huge difference in first parents who make a concious and conciencious plan for adoption for their children and those who selfishly chose to get pregnant and then decide several months after they have the child that they'd rather party than parent, which is where we are.) That surely sounds mean, and I'm sorry. But all that said, I believe it takes a hell of alot of nerve to then post photos of her son, her baby-daddy's daughter, and K (and none of the other kids in the family) and hold them out as HER children. This is just a small example of the whole this -is- MY -daughter thing that I think is beyond the pale.

The therapists didn't offer advise to the contrary of an otherwise happy and healthy family. THEY (J and her mom) were happy, I was miserable. I was also disrespected and invalidated. Notice that that is also now K's situation.

There are grandparent adoptions that are done differently where the children are raised by "nana and papa". If it works for them, fine. But in our case, K had bonded with us (they lived in our home since she was born) as Mama and Daddy, long before her adoption. I truly am curious to know from those who think we might have done it "better/differently": Would K have been better off to have been reminded when she called us mom and dad that we were not? The many occasions when I'm at school functions and someone says, "You must be K's mom.." would she have been better served for me to have had to say, "Why no, I'm her step-grandmother'? Thousands of situations in her lifetime have been easier for her and more TRUTHFUL by me being her MAMA than her grandparent.

Yes I believe generally in honesty and openness in the adoption process. But we must be very careful not to suggest COMPLETE honesty, right? By suggesting that not telling the little grands that K grew in J's body and is therefore her bchild before she was my adaughter is LYING, you might be suggesting that I also share that J was a completely neglectful and horrid parent to her. "Yes, J was her firstparent, and she would leave K for days and days at a time with us and we didn't know where she was. She didn't provide for K and was completely neglectful. The last straw was the day I found K, at 17 months old, sitting ALONE on the steps of our swimming pool with prunny little toes while firstmom J was asleep inside with her lover". Hows that for honesty? I don't think that by not telling the grands (or anyone else for that matter) is lying. And thank you again, very sincerely, as all opinions matter to me.

[karsonsmom]

Originally Posted by feelingreyt

I don't believe that contact should end between father and daughter. BUT I do think that if the OP really wants her stepdd to understand how this is affecting K, she may have to end contact between these 2(J & K). I'm not saying forever either. Just until J realizes how her actions are causing K a lot of emotional turmoil.
I believe that K saying she would rather go into foster care than to ever live with her bmom or bgrandma says A LOT!

You are so right and I never read from your post that you thought their relationship (daughter and dad) should be severed. I think you are right that it is going to take something as serious as NO contact for awhile to get their (J and her mom's) attention.
Some might ask, "Why now? What's different?" The need for urgency or change at this moment is that K is entering adolescence and I should already have really taken a firmer stand with these two. She MUST, developmentally speaking, be firmly grounded in the parents/child relationship before she can successfully separate from it, as is the natural course of growing into teenage years and later into young adulthood. IMO.

[karsonsmom]

Originally Posted by Hadley2

Working on family (niece) adoption here, too. We've had fd over three years (long story), adoption should get filed and finalized very soon (we hope).

It's really tough. OTOH, I think it is healthy to be honest about the facts of the situation: "I gave birth to K and she is your halfsister by birth but grandma and grandpa adopted her and so she is really now your cousin." C may be too young to get all that, but eventually.... I don't think it would be healthy to make the birth a family secret or keep it from the other grandchildren. That I'm sure would bring more toxicity with it than honesty.

OTOH, it is K's story and she has a right to keep it close to her.

OTOH, some things just are, and we have to live with them and in the long run it's better to say, OK, that's how it is, it has no power over me now that I've said it, I can move on.

OTOH, it sounds as K is at a sensitive stage of life where she doesn't need to deal with such things. She knows it, she can sort through it later when there aren't so many other changes in herself to deal with.

As for the introductions, I would make it clear to them that if they introduce K as a daughter, you will pipe with "and we're so glad we've adopted her!" Difficult for you and K, I know, but it puts everything right back at them so that they will absolutely understand that they can't tell the truth without telling the truth.

As for the photos, if stepdaughter can get upfront about the adoption or id's it as her sister, I see little wrong with displaying photo, sending the message to K that although she didn't parent her she has a special place in her heart...that may consciously bug or embarrass K now, but I think it is something that, if not there, might hurt more and longer.

As for telling stepdaughter that she is an embarrassment, I don't think it is necessary to give that reason. I think it suffices to say that K does not want stepdaughter talking about her as a daughter, period, and is not currently comfortable with sharing her birthstory with people outside the family. That it is more K's story than stepdaughter's and if stepdaughter cares about K and how she feels about her at all, she will respect that. If stepdaughter wants to argue it, just tell her that, right or wrong, that is how K feels and if she wants to keep any connection to her at all, she will need to respect her feelings.

So, how's that for a wiffle-waffle answer?

I hadn't thought, in our case, of the younger cousins who are cousins no matter how you slice it. The half-sisters on each side are older, teen and young adult, make a pretty good effort for that age group, especially long distance, but aren't really into being full-fledged sisters, either--more a phone call on a birthday if they remember, a holiday gift and/or call, that sort of thing. She has two half-brothers whose father does not want contact. I'm not even sure if the boys know about her (their sister might not tell them, IDK).

For her part, it seems like too much to deal with, really. She likes to know that they are there, who they are, but the effort to establish relationships is beyond what she wants now. First mother still signs notes "mom," knows better although she is incompetent, we tend to let it go with compassion. If she were on the scene and not long distance, that would probably be a different story. There is no direct contact.

It sounds as if you are a truly caring person who has been negotiating all these issues very well up to now...certainly dealing with a difficult situation with more level-headedness than I might have in the same situation. Good luck with this one.

Fantastic post! Thanks so much, I wish you were my neighbor! It isn't waffling, it is how this really works in real life. It is easy to say, honesty always, but it is not practical, is it, to tell the whole story to the whole world. Nor should it be. You are right that it IS K's story. She didn't ask for this and her wishes about when and how others should be told should be respected, when possible and within "reason". I see no need to offer the info to anyone else unless and until there is a true reason to do so. K sees telling C as a manipulation (her words, isn't that scary) on the part of J and bgrandmom. They get to say, "Here, C, take this to your SISTER, K" where they are not "allowed" to say J is your mother.
K is a really smart kid, huh? Too bad she had to come to some of these smarts by way of being used and hurt. I was unaware of these manipulations and immediately put a stop to the access of the bgrand as soon as I got wind of how thing went when she was over at her house.