[manni28]

My son does not take responsibility for my pain. He never has because he has not been made to feel that he, the person he is now, is the source of it. That's not to say he hasn't struggled with adoption issues. He fully understood his own losses in adoption at the age of 10. And he was able to grieve them and integrate them into his life long before those I see struggling with reunion have.

Breanda:

Did your bson go to counseling because of some OA related "concerns"?

[djvj]

katie,
when you shared your specific experience just now i had a lot of compassion and understanding for what you mean. it sounds like a very difficult situation. i can understand your feelings. leaving her grandchild at your house for several days is UNACCEPTABLE behavior and falls under the category (imo at least) that using drugs or acting abusive might. i can absolutely understand why you might consider limiting contact under those conditions.

it's funny how sometimes it can be hard to understand the other perspective until it gets down to a human level and people really share their own experience. i think a lot of the trouble on the boards with people disagreeing is usually when we are speaking in concepts. specific experience kind of breaks down that wall...

i've really enjoyed reading this forum. i know it drives some people crazy to see people agree to disagree, but i for one really learn a lot from all this.

best of luck to all

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by katie52

I can appreciate this difference. And it is a definite split. But it does seem kind of esoteric in a way. What I mean is that , when you speak of your 23 yr old understanding that, of course he would. I was speaking more about what happens to 6, 7, 8, yr olds.

I realize that many young kids can process this stuff. And many are in very cut and dry circumstances that are easy to explain and accept. But that is not always the case.

Actually my son was 9 when he told me (with a slightly sad voice), "I would be a different person if I had grown up with you and your family." He was 3.5 when he understood that "I could not take care of him when he was born." Someone said that kids think differently than adults. Of course they do. I am a therapist that works with children. I am completely versed on the cognitive development of children. There are, however, age appropriate ways to deal with even the most difficult circumstances. In my work, adoption is not even at the top of the list when it comes to difficult situations. You would be surprised at what children are able to understand and process. I think what is important to note is that they return to these issues at each new cognitive developmental stage in their lives and re-process it with their new cognitive abilities. So a 3 year old may process something only to return to it at the age of eight.

Originally Posted by katie52

So what does that say, when you are making a big deal about meeting with the little ones bfamily, but you have to warn the kids NOT to believe anything grandma says.
THAT IS CONFUSING.

My sister is notorious for this. After a particularly painful birthday where my then 6 year old and my then 3 year old waited with a birthday cake for her and she didn't show up, they learned not to trust aunt M. They take what she says with a grain of salt. They are not confused by who she is. Of course, a birth familiy's inconsistancy adds a layer of complication.

I remember talking to one adoptee about his birthmom who was fairly inconsistant. he said "Well, if she was all together she'd probably be raising me, wouldn't she?"

Kids can handle painful truths and can learn to love and accept people for who they are. Now, I would try to do what I could to get grandma to stop he remarks about the birthmom. Even if you have to be confrontational with the kids around. A "We don't talk about people that way in our house." goes a long way in modeling boundary setting for kids.

Originally Posted by katie52

If they were STRANGERS, I could have explained that some people say untruthful things, some people do unkind things. BUT this being their time to get to know their bfamily, how fair is it for me to point out those things?

It is your job as a parent to point out those things. To teach them right from wrong. You can do this in a loving way. It is a reality of who their birthfamily is. By not discussing it you may be implying that it is acceptable behavior.

Originally Posted by katie52

Luckily for your son, you are an honest and reasonable person.
I have no doubt that your compassion and intelligence helped him through. I only wish we had been blessed with such a situation.
I think in such cases OA is by far the best option.

As an educator and a therapist I believe that education is the key. I have worked with far too many people over the years that have experienced "light bulb" momements to believe anything else.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by manni28

Breanda:

Did your bson go to counseling because of some OA related "concerns"?

No, he did not. And why is concerns in quotes?

[manni28]

Originally Posted by bromanchik

No, he did not. And why is concerns in quotes?

I'm asking because you said he had some adoption related issues. I was just wondering if it was because of OA. As I said before, my son's bmom is parenting an older child. We all agreed that it would be in his best interest to wait until he is an older, mature teen to navigate a relationship with his bfamily, if he wants to. We don’t want to risk the consequences of him knowing his bmom kept the first born but not him. I think, in my case, when the child is older, they can see WHY the adoption took place, not think they are the reason WHY.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by manni28

As I said before, my son's bmom is parenting an older child. We all agreed that it would be in his best interest to wait until he is an older, mature teen to navigate a relationship with his bfamily, if he wants to. We don’t want to risk the consequences of him knowing his bmom kept the first born but not him. I think, in my case, when the child is older, they can see WHY the adoption took place, not think they are the reason WHY.

So he doen't know he has an older brother?

[manni28]

[quote]So he doen't know he has an older brother?/QUOTE]

My son is 15 months, when he is older and can understand (maybe at 3-4 years old) we will explain to him. What I want to point out is we (hubby and me) have a bio-child who also will be my son's older brother. In reality, my child and his bsibling most likely won't have the sibling bond that siblings have if they were raised together under the same roof. We (our family) are taking it one day at a time.

[katie52]

[quote=bromanchik]Actually my son was 9 when he told me (with a slightly sad voice), "I would be a different person if I had grown up with you and your family." He was 3.5 when he understood that "I could not take care of him when he was born." ------------

Our son realized the same thing at an early age. But it was a different realization than your sons. It was more like "Thank goodness I am not in that life anymore."
[ I have only shared a very small percentage of the chaos and dysfunction in his original family.]
In your case it was a good thing he made that distinction.
I do believe he inherited some of your cognitive abilities, and some of your intelligence. +++++++++++


Someone said that kids think differently than adults. Of course they do. I am a therapist that works with children. I am completely versed on the cognitive development of children. There are, however, age appropriate ways to deal with even the most difficult circumstances. In my work, adoption is not even at the top of the list when it comes to difficult situations. You would be surprised at what children are able to understand and process. I think what is important to note is that they return to these issues at each new cognitive developmental stage in their lives and re-process it with their new cognitive abilities. So a 3 year old may process something only to return to it at the age of eight.--------------------------------------

I understand . And the revisiting and revisiting is something I sometimes worry about.
Your son looked at you and saw a wonderful, loving, sane person, who he could feel good about.
What about kids who do not have that luxury. What about kids, who when working on their own sense of self, who are trying to define themselves as individuals,
must visit and revisit, some of the most difficult issues of relinquishment. ++++++++++++++++++++


My sister is notorious for this. After a particularly painful birthday where my then 6 year old and my then 3 year old waited with a birthday cake for her and she didn't show up, they learned not to trust aunt M. They take what she says with a grain of salt. They are not confused by who she is. Of course, a birth familiy's inconsistancy adds a layer of complication. -----------

I think you underestimate the 'layer of complication.'
If your aunt was their 'first mother', and she failed to show up with a birthday cake, wouldn't it have been a little more painful? And if you had to tell your kids, that their first mom, was untrustworthy, wouldn't that be difficult for the kids to process, especially when they were trying to build their own sense of who they were.

Because you work with children, I am sure you would see that a child would obviously want to identify with his birthfamily, when he is growing up. He loves to see who he looks like, who he sounds like. So if he also sees someone who lies to him, someone who is an addict, someone who is in and out of jail, WHAT does that mean to him? I think it makes some kids grapple with deep issues like IS THAT WHO I AM AS WELL.++++++++++++++++++++++



I remember talking to one adoptee about his birthmom who was fairly inconsistant. he said "Well, if she was all together she'd probably be raising me, wouldn't she?"------------------------------------

Exactly. and that is just a small problem, being inconsistent. So this kid could process that successfully+++++++++++++++++.

Kids can handle painful truths and can learn to love and accept people for who they are. Now, I would try to do what I could to get grandma to stop he remarks about the birthmom. Even if you have to be confrontational with the kids around. A "We don't talk about people that way in our house." goes a long way in modeling boundary setting for kids.-----------------------------

She would say things, truthful but blunt things , like the following;

"Sorry Your Mama couldnt be here. You know she is back in jail again. When is that child gonna learn to stop stealin-Probly never."

"You have got a curvy way about you, just like your mama, dont you go standing on street corners like she do now. I hope you learn better than she did."

[We stopped visitation in this OA 15 years ago because of these kinds of things --but we had one ongoing with our second akid .]

There was NO boundary setting to be done with this woman around. Obviously I confronted her behavior, and I talked to the kids after the visits, and did what I kid to educate them. But I felt it was just too difficult for our sensitive sweet ason, to see and hear this kind of stuff from them. His bmom was a prostitute and a drug addict, who, was clean and sober when we first met. And the first 3 years of OA went fine, but as she went off the deep end, it could not be salvaged. +++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is your job as a parent to point out those things. To teach them right from wrong. You can do this in a loving way. It is a reality of who their birthfamily is. By not discussing it you may be implying that it is acceptable behavior.-------------------------------

Of course I need to teach them right and wrong. But if everytime they visit bfamily, you need to have a family conference, to discuss what is Right/Wrong, it is sad. Sometimes the reality of who their bfamily is, is too painful and disruptive , for them to easily accept. No matter how loving we are, the facts are hurtful. Does a 7 yr old NEED to incorporate into their psyche truths about rehab and jail? I dont think so. ++++++++++++++




As an educator and a therapist I believe that education is the key. I have worked with far too many people over the years that have experienced "light bulb" momements to believe anything else.
-------------------------------------------

I think we are just talking about apples and oranges.
If we had a bmom like some that I have met here on this board, I am certain I would have a different feeling about it. I am still glad that we did have OAs, because I did not have to tell our kids their family secrets or info at 18. They did process and work through it by then.
But it was not a smooth and easy process. I am happy to hear many people on this board are having good experiences overall. That is nice. I know very few people had our extreme circumstances. Thank God.+++++++++

[katie52]

i've really enjoyed reading this forum. i know it drives some people crazy to see people agree to disagree, but i for one really learn a lot from all this.

best of luck to all--------------------------------


I know. sometimes when I come back, and read again what I posted, I see how some people might take offense. I really do not want to come off that crazed.
It is something that everyone here feels passionately about. Ultimately it is a good thing for everyone to share their varied experiences. Hopefully it all balances out in the end.

[manni28]

Katie52:

I think by telling your experience with OA it is giving it a balance. I have read many times about amoms being passionate about OA’s based on what they have read in books and on these forums. Yet, several months/ one year later the same amom who was so passionate about OA is complaining about boundaries being stepped on , and OA’s not be what they thought it would be IRL. I think what people have to understand is what they are reading ( OA books & forums) is on paper, not real life.

In an OA you are bringing together two sets of people who, a lot of times, don’t have anything in common except the child. They are coming from a different environment with different values, morals and life styles. I have seen amoms bashed for speaking out about OA’s being misrepresented and how in real life, it’s not like the books or adoption counselors says it is. I have also seen OA’s that ARE beautiful AND successful, because everyone involved is on the same page. The bparents respect the aparents as parents and the aparents respect the bparents as the child’s biological link. However, I don’t think OA’s are the only way to go. Just because a person gives birth to a child doesn’t mean they are the right person to be around the child, regardless of any biological connection. OA books, forums and studies are informative but they aren’t a representation of everyday real life.

Katie52, your experience with OA has been informative for aparents who are going into an OA; it is telling the “other side of the story”. Which I think is needed to create an equal balance of OA’s.

[bromanchik]

[quote=manni28]

So he doen't know he has an older brother?/QUOTE]

My son is 15 months, when he is older and can understand (maybe at 3-4 years old) we will explain to him. What I want to point out is we (hubby and me) have a bio-child who also will be my son's older brother. In reality, my child and his bsibling most likely won't have the sibling bond that siblings have if they were raised together under the same roof. We (our family) are taking it one day at a time.

I can tell you that I know many adoptees that are saddened by not having grown up with a sibling. It is another loss. Maybe your son won't experience that, but maybe he will. I can also tell you that there are issues for the siblings raised by the birthfamily. Even in open adoptions the losses are there, despite the fact that they were able to be a part of each other's lives.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by katie52

I understand . And the revisiting and revisiting is something I sometimes worry about.
Your son looked at you and saw a wonderful, loving, sane person, who he could feel good about.
What about kids who do not have that luxury. What about kids, who when working on their own sense of self, who are trying to define themselves as individuals,
must visit and revisit, some of the most difficult issues of relinquishment. ++++++++++++++++++++

All relinquishment is difficult. And I have my share of dysfunction. So does my extended family.

The bottom line is that there is a lot to be learned from our family's dysfunction. As much as I learned from my family about the kind of person I want to be, I also learned a truck load of what I don't want. Visiting and revisiting it can help us shape our identities. I work with a lot of children whose birthparents are addicts, or neglectful, or even just self-absorbed. My job, since their parents are unable or unwilling to do it for them, is to help them see their parents for who they are, take the good parts, and reject the dysfunctional stuff. To help them understand their parents choices and to sometimes grieve the mother or father their birth parents could not be to them. I also help the create healthy boundaries. It sounds to me like you did that with your son.

All adoptees need to somehow process that their birthparents inability to parent them. Because the bottom line is that I was in a place, as are most birthparents, at the time of his birth, where I was unable to parent him. For birthparents who were coerced into the decision, or found themselves with no support, the issue is still the same. The loss is still the same. And while the amount of grief this causes an adopted child is different, it is still something that needs to be addressed.

Originally Posted by katie52

I think you underestimate the 'layer of complication.'
If your aunt was their 'first mother', and she failed to show up with a birthday cake, wouldn't it have been a little more painful? And if you had to tell your kids, that their first mom, was untrustworthy, wouldn't that be difficult for the kids to process, especially when they were trying to build their own sense of who they were.

Actually I am not underestimating the difficulty in that. Again, it comes down to presenting the reality of the situation and helping the child understand and grieve the choices the birthparent is making.

Originally Posted by katie52

There was NO boundary setting to be done with this woman around. Obviously I confronted her behavior, and I talked to the kids after the visits, and did what I kid to educate them. But I felt it was just too difficult for our sensitive sweet ason, to see and hear this kind of stuff from them. His bmom was a prostitute and a drug addict, who, was clean and sober when we first met. And the first 3 years of OA went fine, but as she went off the deep end, it could not be salvaged. +++++++++++++++++++++++++

Certainly there are situations where you have to say, "Would I allow anyone else with these issues around my children?" Certainly in your situation there was just cause. You created boundaries that were consistantly violated. I see too many people, however, cutting people off for far less.
[/quote]

[manni28]

I can tell you that I know many adoptees that are saddened by not having grown up with a sibling. It is another loss. Maybe your son won't experience that, but maybe he will. I can also tell you that there are issues for the siblings raised by the birthfamily. Even in open adoptions the losses are there, despite the fact that they were able to be a part of each other's lives.

See this is where I disagree. As I stated before, we have an older bio-child who is my ason’s “other/older” sibling. Most likely my son will identify our child as his “older/other sibling” because they are growing-up together, under the same roof, with the same set of parents. Not that we are”erasing” his bio-sibling but the truth remains: each child is growing-up with a different set of parents. In regards to my ason’s bio-sibling, and why he’s not growing up with my son, the bmom must address those questions

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by manni28

[Most likely my son will identify our child as his “older/other sibling” because they are growing-up together, under the same roof, with the same set of parents. Not that we are”erasing” his bio-sibling but the truth remains: each child is growing-up with a different set of parents. [/font]

This is true. They are growing up with different sets of parents. But you cannot know what kind of connection he will feel toward the sibling that he is not growing up with. I hope you are open to him if he feels differently than you do.

[manni28]

This is true. They are growing up with different sets of parents. But you cannot know what kind of connection he will feel toward the sibling that he is not growing up with. I hope you are open to him if he feels differently than you do.

Of course we are open and willing to acknowledge the connection he may have with his bsibling. As an adoptee I know curiosity prevails. However as his parents, we decided to wait until he is a mature, older teen to let him navigate a relationship with his bfamily.

As a parent you always want what’s best for your child, and in our case, we agreed that having an OA with visits, might be too much for him to handle. Many OA books, that I have read ,support visits between the older bsiling and achild, but is it really good for the children to see/witness that bmom “kept” the first born but not the other?