[Stormster]

Originally Posted by Vogi2002

LI think there are some times when an aparent CAN have too much empathy for bparents,

How can one have too much empathy? I just think it's risky to start "gaging" it kwim?

[gracemetcalf]

Originally Posted by leoson

With a grown, adopted, son, adoption has always been an issue I've been interested in. I actually have an "anti-open-adoption" posted in a few different places online (even though I realize that everyone does things differently, based on the people involved).

Maybe because, when I adopted my son, I knew I'd be having children myself as well, I wanted to make sure his life didn't have more of a "different element" to it than his siblings lives had; but I would not have been ok with an open arrangement.

Besides believing that children need one mother/one father at one time, and not wanting to confused my son, with regard to his "belonging"; I will admit to having the "selfish" wish to have with him, what I had with my biological children and what all mothers get to have with their children - in terms of being his one and only mother.

My belief has always been that birth mothers should not place their children for adoption if they still want to keep in touch. Adoption should really only be for those mothers (and they do exist) who say, "I don't want this kid - at all, ever - here, someone take him."

From what I hear the UK now has some modified adoption type of arrangement that allows birth mothers to have someone care for their children, while, essentially (I think), remaining the child's mother. That seems like a reasonable arrangement because then the adoptive mother will know how to present things to the child, and present them in a way to let him know that while she loves him, she's not his mother.

With the trend in open adoption, I'm not sure that adoptive parents are being expected to be unpaid foster parents just until the child is 18 - and I don't think that is best in terms of aiming to give the child a sense of really belonging and permanence.

Kids are resilient, and they often just go with how things are in their own family, so I don't think it "has to be the end of the world" if families are different.

It's just that I had the benefit of one of those traditional, two-parent, families and believed it was the best thing I could offer my own children.

Just thought I'd be the one to offer the different opinion. I'm not saying, and I'm not even sure, my opinion is correct.

Why is this person dismissed as a "troll"? Because she expresses different, unpopular perspective? I don't get it.

[Vogi2002]

Originally Posted by Stormster

How can one have too much empathy? I just think it's risky to start "gaging" it kwim?

Well for instance, when the bparents are disrespectful, negative, and unhealthy yet the aparents allow the OA to continue and "put up with it" just because they are the birth parents.

There are times when ALL agree that an OA should not be continued (or at least direct contact...sometimes even updates), and as aparents we have to remember that our kids come first. We don't want our kids to be around unhealthy people or relationships, and sometiems people are just selfish...

Reading the boards sometimes you hear these wonderful bparents talking and you think "maybe that is how my child's bparents feel" and you give them another chance, when in fact you need to realize that each person is different, and sometimes you have to trust your instincts / thoughts. I'm not saying this is always the case...just that there are times when I think aparents need to say "enough is enough" lay down boundaries and lines, and stick to them.

This is personal experience, not directed at anybody.

[Stormster]

Originally Posted by Vogi2002

This is personal experience, not directed at anybody.

I know, I get defensive because of my particular situation.

[djvj]

Originally Posted by Vogi2002

Reading the boards sometimes you hear these wonderful bparents talking and you think "maybe that is how my child's bparents feel" and you give them another chance, when in fact you need to realize that each person is different, and sometimes you have to trust your instincts / thoughts. I'm not saying this is always the case...just that there are times when I think aparents need to say "enough is enough" lay down boundaries and lines, and stick to them.

i hear you. everyone is so different, and every situation is unique. the more i read and write posts on this site the more i almost feel like it's hard to have any one solid opinion on anything regarding this process. so many variables, so many different people with different perspectives/needs/expectations etc. i will say that imho, probably the most important factor in making and maintaining a successful open adoption are boundaries. setting them, understanding them, respecting them, renegotiating them when necessary....it's a hard thing to do between 2 grown people, let alone 3, 4, 5 or more, then add in age variables and high emotions....and you get, lol... open adoption, in all it's good intentions and imperfect realities.

best of luck to everyone in navigating through it!

[Stormster]

Originally Posted by djvj

i will say that imho, probably the most important factor in making and maintaining a successful open adoption are boundaries. setting them, understanding them, respecting them, renegotiating them when necessary....

I agree. But I feel like it's also really important that we be "available" and present. Believe me nobody understands the needs for boundaries better than I, but I don't want to set up "rules" that might alienate her. If she calls me I call back within 24 hours. She can rely on that and I feel that because of that, she feels respected and respects us in return. If that makes sense...!?

[finallyamom0310]

I am currently reading the book "The Family of Adoption" by Joyce Maguire Pavao and there is a glossery in the back. It is a broad definition but thought this might be a good place to insert it:

"Open Adoption is not joint custody. Open adoption is an arrangement agreed to by the adoptive parents and birth parents in which there is an ongoing connection between them, to be determined by the parties involved. The birth parents still sign terminations of parental rights, and the adoptive parents become the full and legal parents of the child."
"Open adoption ranges from what some people call open, but is actually semi-open, to a full relationship with ongoing connection and visits. Openness often varies over time, depending on the needs of the child and the parents' understanding of their roles and responsibilities. The success of open adoption depends on clear boundaries, the participants' respect for each other's roles and responsibilities, and the ability of the adults involved to put their egos aside in order to do what is best for the child."

I found this very interesting and for me a good base to work with.

[thanksgivingmom]

achildren are exposed to their aparents experiencing a myriad of emotions over the course of their childhood. they are going to soak some of that up, and they are probably going to imitate the way their parents handle these emotions. i think it would be ridiculous to remove a child from their aparent for a year while the aparent grieves a relative's death, for example, even though a child will surely be sensitive to and affected by their aparent's pain and loss in this situation. -------

But the aparents grief in this example IS NOT CAUSED BY THE KID. Akids feel the GUILT of the pain their bmoms harbor. They get silently saddled with the baggage, and it weighs them down, even though noone means to do that.====================

And my pain isn't caused by "THE KID" either. "Akids" aren't why we feel pain. Do I miss my daughter? - absolutely - but I do not put my pain on her. It's not her responsibility to absorb it and get "silently saddled down" with it.

If anything, in OA I think I'd be there to be able to reassure her that it's not the case. Kids that are in closed adoptions have a hard time emotionally dealing with adoption as well - when they have no one to answer the question of "why?" No one except their aparent who likely doesn't know the absolute truth of the matter.

[Vogi2002]

Isn't the whole point of this thread to talk about how not EVERY OA is so difficult & so much to it??

I don't know why people are arguing that OA isn't the only way...that's not even part of the thread. I know we can spin off on subjects but does EVERY SINGLE THREAD about open adoption have to turn into a battle?? Can't people involved in an OA just have a chance to discuss it without having to defend thier choices?

OA can work if you choose it, and when it does your life is not consumed by it. It just is, like having another friend to share everything with. Not every conversation is filled with emotion, and not every time you get together is it a battle of emotion (even for some bparents). Is there emotion? Yes, but it's not a saga every time. There isn't an emotional pull as to who is mommy and your place in the life...every OA isn't so INVOLVED.

I have one that IS, and one that's not. So there are times that it happens to be drama filled...but there are plenty that aren't.

[thanksgivingmom]

I agree Vogi!

(although I do get a little defensive sometimes )

[gracemetcalf]

Originally Posted by Vogi2002

Can't people involved in an OA just have a chance to discuss it without having to defend thier choices?

Frankly, I've learned more from listening to people defend their choices regarding OA (or any other adoption or parenting topic for that matter) than I have from threads that seek only to promote a positive (or negative) perspective... I'm just saying, the question was is OA ever misrepresented? Surely, there's debate involved in aswering that?

[lovemy2boys]

I think the best way I've heard it described was a few posts ago by djvj when she said "...open adoption, in all it's good intentions and imperfect realities"

Truely, many times people enter OA's with the best of intentions...and sometimes people aren't ready for the "realities" of it...I know we weren't. I wish I could say it was a easy and relaxed and peaceful, both in my heart and in actuality...but it wasn't...well, one sort of was - the other, not so much.

But then again, we were different people and personalities, different situations, different...everything.

But we've made it through to the other side! And it's good! Not always easy, but really, really good.

And Vogi is right when she said that basically, good or bad, it's not an all comsuming relationship - that our days aren't navigated by the fact that we have OA's or not...In fact, when I'm not on these boards (which, admittedly, I am on here quite a bit) or when I'm not talking to or emailing or whatever, my boys' firstmoms, for the most part, OA is just another facet of our lives...

Although the relationship is "more complex" than just a friendship (I'm not discounting the importance in the least), timewise it is just like a friendship, or a relationship with a relative - one that you nourish it through involvement in whichever form - but not the primary one in our lives...

And I'm fairly certain that firstmoms can agree with this - that on here, there may be a fair amount of discussion about it, but their relationship with their childs aparents, or even their relationship with their placed child, is not necessarily a daily or the main relationship in their life...

And somewhere I got off track - haha - but really, my point is that all OA's are different - they all have different components - and they aren't one size fits all...and that's not necesssarily a bad thing.

[joskids]

I find it funny (not really) that any of you are surprised at the "bickering" that goes around on this board when it comes to the big issues like what race child we decide to adopt, whether we do international or domestic, whether we decide to be stay at home mothers or working outside the home mothers, and what open adoption means to each of us. The "bickering" is exactly why I left this board for a while to take a breather. It's exhausting.

It would serve ALL OF US BETTER to just BE there for each other, instead of trying to win everybody over to our own individual way of thinking.

Just my thoughts . . . for what they're worth . . . probably not much.

Josie

[katie52]

And my pain isn't caused by "THE KID" either. "Akids" aren't why we feel pain. Do I miss my daughter? - absolutely - but I do not put my pain on her. It's not her responsibility to absorb it and get "silently saddled down" with it. ------------------------------------

No, but you cannot compare the two situations the poster was trying to compare.
1= aparent feeling grief
over a death in the family to
2= bparent feeling grief
over loss of child to adoption

Of the 2 situations above, which one would be more difficult for the child to cope with?
Obviously, the situation is which the child is a major
factor.
And of course it is not the childs 'responsibility' to absorb your pain, and that is my concern.
It just sort of naturally happens. And of course, it is the job of all the assorted parents to prevent that, by assuring the child that it is not the case.

But it is a murky and complicated situation. The most constant source of pain of most bmoms is from 'missing out on raising the child'-- from what I understand. I may be wrong, but that seems to be one of the most basic painful themes. So it is in fact, because of the child, living with the aparents, that the bmom is in such deep pain. Really no way around that . You can assure and reassure the child from dawn to dusk, but they still understand at a deeper level that their present circumstances are a source of the pain.
And you being there to say, no , thats not why I am in such pain, will not change their interpretation of it.
I know that because I lived that. Our oldest just stopped believing everyone for awhile because what people said, and what he knew to be true were in contradiction.

I USED TO BE A HUGE ADVOCATE OF OPEN ADOPTION.
21 years ago I had to fight for it when everyone thought I was nuts. But now that I have lived through 2, and have known a dozen families who also have, I think that in SOME situations , there should be less visitation, and more letters and pictures/updates.

I think in some cases, where there is simplicity, then it can be a good thing. But often there are very difficult circumstances surrounding the relinquishment, otherwise there wouldn't have been one.

In hindsight, I think we have sometimes asked too much of our children, in expecting them to process and understand, things that not even grown ups, have successfully resolved. I know many people here have said basicly " YES, it is really really difficult, and painful
and it can be confusing, but children need to understand that if you work really hard you can overcome anything" DO THEY? I mean do they have to be put through all this at their tender young ages, when they have so many other things to focus on? Or are we being selfish ourselves and want them to just deal with it, get over it, it is what it is. Sometimes I wonder.

[binkybear]

Originally Posted by joskids

I find it funny (not really) that any of you are surprised at the "bickering" that goes around on this board when it comes to the big issues like what race child we decide to adopt, whether we do international or domestic, whether we decide to be stay at home mothers or working outside the home mothers, and what open adoption means to each of us. The "bickering" is exactly why I left this board for a while to take a breather. It's exhausting.

It would serve ALL OF US BETTER to just BE there for each other, instead of trying to win everybody over to our own individual way of thinking.

Just my thoughts . . . for what they're worth . . . probably not much.

Josie

I think they're worth A LOT!

I often either sigh and walk away or type out a response only to delete it becuase I don't think it could possibily A) make the situation better or kinder (who likes niceness, it's not controversial enough!) or B) who's really "listening" rather than talking...yah know?

I've seen it on a business forum I use frequently where the "bickering" takes over. It ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS reminds me of (funny enough) a children's book I had as a kid, one of my favoirtes acutally. It was called "Mine's the Best". Simply 2 little boys who try to prove who's balloon is the best. In the end they ruin their own (similar if not identical) balloons trying to prove thier personal balloon was "the best". Cracks me up that it's a kids book that so reflects all of this bickering nonsense with adults

Amazon Online Reader : Mine's the Best (My First I Can Read)