[proudmum]

katie52 ..... again something to think about,,,,i find your post to be very insightful... thankyou for sharing your thoughts,,i guess sometimes we forget that children this young can have the same feelings as the adults do ( and just as intense)
proudmum

[bromanchik]

As parents, whether by adoption or birth, it is our job to help kids manage and process their emotions. I think the best example of this is my friend Jen. Please read her blog. There are a bunch of incredibly moving examples of stellar adoptive parenting that chronical her one son's reunion in July. I am giving you the link to her take on the flip side with her other son.
http://anickelsworthofcommonsense.bl...g-one-who.html

[browneyes0707]

Katie:

There are a few b-mom's on here that have had their adoptions "close" or become less open, and these b-moms are not struggling with abuse problems, they are women who have jobs and families and are productive memebers of society. They show up for every visit, are respecful of the aparents and their role, and have a seeminly healthy relationship with the child. Do they have emotions regarding the visit YES! Is it hard, YES! But having emotions does not equal instability. Showing them in front of the child may show questionable judgement, in regards to it being inappropriate, but I've read many a women have visits and not break down for hours later in the safety of their home. How is the child absorbing their emotions if they are not shown in front of the child? How is the child affected if their emotions are released here or on a blog where the child or aparent doesn't read? Having emotions is NOT a sign of instability. It is all in how they are processed and projected.

There are a few on this board right now who have seem adoptions closed like this, and if you scan the internet community, there are a lot more out there. It's sad, but it DOES happen. Too frequently if you ask me.

I do understand what you are saying about the child having a voice, but how old is the child when they are able to express that and have it be the definitive answer? How much of it is "normal" growing pain/adjustment and how much is plain "I do not like or want anything to do with this person?" (in a normal healthy environment)

My DD is 16, and the reason why my adoption has not opened fully is because she isn't ready for that right now. (she has never met me, the adoption was closed for 14 years and is slowly being reopened) So in my case we are listening and taking the child's feelings first and foremost, but she is at an age where she can make these choices, and in the meantime, her mom and I communicate. If the adoption is open it would be a positive and stable relationship, at least from my contribution. But my situation is quite unique, most are not coming from the standpoint of reopening an adoption after all that time.

My point I guess is that all stories are unique. Good and bad happens on both sides for all reasons. Its hard to generalize a statement, but to answer your question, no I don't ever see a birthmom expect an adoption to be kept fuly open in the instance you gave where substance abuse is involved.

[finallyamom0310]

Originally Posted by bromanchik

As parents, whether by adoption or birth, it is our job to help kids manage and process their emotions. I think the best example of this is my friend Jen. Please read her blog. There are a bunch of incredibly moving examples of stellar adoptive parenting that chronical her one son's reunion in July. I am giving you the link to her take on the flip side with her other son.
A Nickel's Worth of Common Sense: Reunion Thoughts: Supporting the One Who Chooses Not To

Wow, that post is absolutly amazing. Please everyone take time to read.

[djvj]

i really enjoy reading this thread.

i don't think anyone on this forum has a problem agreeing that a birthparents using substances around children or subjecting them to any type of danger is unacceptable and visits under these circumstances should not be allowed to continue.

having said that, i feel it is negative to have children stop contact with their bparents simply because emotions can occasionally run high. while we all want to shield children from inappropriate situations, we also have to prepare them to grow up in a complicated, difficult world... where sadness, fear, and pain are unfortunate realities that can not be avoided. imho, the way we HANDLE these feelings teach a child how to do so for themselves. if we run away or shut out everything that at times feels uncomfortable, then we will often miss chances to grow, and to teach our children that relationships take work and are not always easy. i think with a thoughtful approach, communication, and good boundaries on both sides, these uncomfortable times can be learning opportunities. yes - someone can be sad sometimes, and you don't have to run away from it. yes - relationships are complicated and sometimes they take patience and work. yes - many people can love you at the same time and not be a threat to each other or cancel each other out, just as we all have the capacity to love many people at once. i think children look to adults for clues of how to process emotional situations. while they may indeed "soak up" the emotions of both the b & a parents, and this might not always be fun, they are also learning valuable skills in how to cope with their own unpleasant feelings, and can develop qualities like compassion, loyalty and trust in the process.

achildren are exposed to their aparents experiencing a myriad of emotions over the course of their childhood. they are going to soak some of that up, and they are probably going to imitate the way their parents handle these emotions. i think it would be ridiculous to remove a child from their aparent for a year while the aparent grieves a relative's death, for example, even though a child will surely be sensitive to and affected by their aparent's pain and loss in this situation.

the most mind blowing aspect of my first reunion with my 23year old birth daughter was WHAT A HUGE ROLE genetics play...we have the exact same mannerisms, voice, tastes, interests, and astoundingly similar personalities. i knew we resembled each other and had a few surface similarities but i was shocked at how alike we are in millions of large and small ways. imo, one of the most beautiful aspects of open adoption is that the child get to see their aparents respecting their biological roots. they get to see with their own eyes that their parents accept and honor the parts of them that are genetic. if contact ends because aparents feel uncomfortable with bparents for no other reason than their emotions are not always "happy" or "easy", then i wonder what the subliminal message is to the child?

adoption is a situation that is painful, complicated, joyful and scary for all the adults involved. there is no way to change this. i really think that presenting it as easy, simple, and always problem free is probably not accurate. but neither is it always the impossible mess that it is all too often portrayed as being. people come to these forums for support, and that means probably more people are inclined to speak out when there is a problem then when there is not. imho, ideally when we have issues in our close relationships (especially familial) we do our best to work them out, to learn communication, empathy and how to set boundaries. if a relationship is toxic or abusive, then children need to be protected and interaction should be terminated. but in any other situation i believe the long term benefits to all parties can outweigh the difficulties of working through the tough times.

[Stormster]

DJ great post but I wonder how we define "toxic" and when you say "interaction" should stop do you mean visits AND photos/updates or just visits?

E's birth parents are not like us. They are not exactly pillars of the community and struggle with addiction BUT they are good hearted, functioning adults ...

I have had a relationship my whole life with my brother who is often times rude or downright crazy. I don't see his mental illness as different than the illness of addiction. E will always know his uncle with his problems and he will always know his birth mother with hers.

DJ I agree...it's part of life and nobody is perfect. I want DS to respect that even though they are different from us, they are part of him and so worthy of knowing.

I realize this isn't true of all addiction situations but it is our reality.

[Leigh131313]

Seriously guys....have you forgotten ENTIRELY the whole point of my post in the first place???

Go fight/discuss/etc. etc. somewhere else - arne't there enough threads on this already???

[Vogi2002]

Leigh - Didn't read the middle pages of the thread...honestly I don't have time as I have laundry! LOL

I think extremes are posted on the site....good extremes and bad. I think there are some times when an aparent CAN have too much empathy for bparents, and vice versa.

OA has rules....or boundaries...that each side should abide by, they are simple and can be summed up with one word - respect.

Now, having said that I have one adoption that is wonderful, and very "easy". One adoption...not so much, my first. So if I had just went through my "easy" adoption...OA would be easier for me...but going through my other adoption, I know it can be more complicated.


BUT I do feel like OA seems to be represented as more of a "battle" here than anything else. Probably because rarely do people post about thier OA if they have no problems to post about!!!

[katie52]

Originally Posted by browneyes0707

Katie:

There are a few b-mom's on here that have had their adoptions "close" or become less open, and these b-moms are not struggling with abuse problems, they are women who have jobs and families and are productive memebers of society. They show up for every visit, are respecful of the aparents and their role, and have a seeminly healthy relationship with the child. Do they have emotions regarding the visit YES! Is it hard, YES! But having emotions does not equal instability. -------

I know that. Not having these strong emotions would equal instability imo.====================



Showing them in front of the child may show questionable judgement, in regards to it being inappropriate, but I've read many a women have visits and not break down for hours later in the safety of their home. How is the child absorbing their emotions if they are not shown in front of the child? -----------------

This is EXACTLY my point. Imagine you go on a casual date with a guy you are interested in. You are just going for a coffee and to hang out. He is smiling, being nice. But lets say that underneath, emotionally he had a tremendous amount of conflicting emotions churning around, all pertaining to you. { He loves you deeply, doesnt know how to tell you, he is also angry that you have another guy but he doesnt want yoju to be mad, and so so and so on. } Obviously, you are going to pick up on some of that if he is really feeling intense stuff.
It does not matter if he says or does anything weird.
You would probably feel awkward and uncomfortable with the visit, and you may not be as eager to go see him the next time. KIDS ABSORB OTHER PEOPLES INTERNAL STUFF ALL THE TIME.============

How is the child affected if their emotions are released here or on a blog where the child or aparent doesn't read? Having emotions is NOT a sign of instability. It is all in how they are processed and projected.----------

there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with venting on this board or on blogs. That is what I am doing. I am just trying to explain why sometimes, aparents become worried about the after affects of some visits.=======

There are a few on this board right now who have seem adoptions closed like this, and if you scan the internet community, there are a lot more out there. It's sad, but it DOES happen. Too frequently if you ask me.-----

yea, it is sad, especially if they are completely closed.
I think there a very few reasons for that. ========

I do understand what you are saying about the child having a voice, but how old is the child when they are able to express that and have it be the definitive answer? How much of it is "normal" growing pain/adjustment and how much is plain "I do not like or want anything to do with this person?" (in a normal healthy environment)---------------------------

I dont know. I can only really know the full reactions
of our kids. Our oldest child began rejecting visitation at around age 7. We kept it semi open for years until they
moved with no forwarding adress left behind. Our youngest wanted more visitation, and more contact, but the bmom could not handle it because of other personal situations. It has been hard for years because it has made our a-kid feel somewhat rejected, even though she has read the letters of explanantion.==========



My DD is 16, and the reason why my adoption has not opened fully is because she isn't ready for that right now. (she has never met me, the adoption was closed for 14 years and is slowly being reopened) So in my case we are listening and taking the child's feelings first and foremost, but she is at an age where she can make these choices, and in the meantime, her mom and I communicate. If the adoption is open it would be a positive and stable relationship, at least from my contribution. But my situation is quite unique, most are not coming from the standpoint of reopening an adoption after all that time. ----------------------

I can tell you are a stable, sane and positive person. I have no doubt you would and will be a positive influence.

It is just that, even that, is sometimes not enough to make a teenager feel ready to connect. Teenage years are so intense and emotional anyway, the last thing they usually want is another issue to deal with.
I think they really want to see pictures and have letters and information, I know my kids did, and they treasure them to this day. But face to face brings another level of emotion and stress that we adults sometimes underestimate.

I have had several friends who could not figure out how to convince or beg or bribe or force their akids to continue with their visits after they grew older. They were burnt out on the emotional overload of it and they wanted their lives to be 'simple'. They sometimes would just adamently flat out refuse to go. =======

My point I guess is that all stories are unique. Good and bad happens on both sides for all reasons. Its hard to generalize a statement, but to answer your question, no I don't ever see a birthmom expect an adoption to be kept fuly open in the instance you gave where substance abuse is involved.

-------------

I know. I agree. Each child is different, each OA is different. I guess my point is that sometimes it is really hard on the akids, even if the visits are seemingly polite and lovely, and everyone acts fine. Sometimes it is still emotional for the kids to see bfamily, see new siblings, see the whole happy family, then process why they do not live with them. And to do that over and over is just too hard for young kids sometimes.==========

[Mommy24]

Originally Posted by katie52

-------------

I know. I agree. Each child is different, each OA is different. I guess my point is that sometimes it is really hard on the akids, even if the visits are seemingly polite and lovely, and everyone acts fine. Sometimes it is still emotional for the kids to see bfamily, see new siblings, see the whole happy family, then process why they do not live with them. And to do that over and over is just too hard for young kids sometimes.==========

I hear you Katie, I do! But kids are much more resilient than we give them credit for. Life is hard, adoption or not and being a child in this world continues to get harder day by day. But as a parent I feel like I have the ability to make the difference in how they handle the world around them.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why so much emphasis needs to be put on "This is your birthfamily and they are all happy and sorry you can't be a part of it" rather than "This is your birthfamily, an extension of our family and we love them and treat them the same way we would other extended family members"

IMO, it is all in the way it is handled by the adults in the situation and it isn't easy, nothing in life worth having is easy.

Adoption should always be about the best interest of the child, no doubt about that, but I find it hard to believe that if everyone is doing their part, that the child would be so uncomfortable with a visit with "extended family" however they became "extended family"

[katie52]

having said that, i feel it is negative to have children stop contact with their bparents simply because emotions can occasionally run high. ---------------
I Agree. If it were simply a matter of that, no one should stop contact. ===================

while we all want to shield children from inappropriate situations, we also have to prepare them to grow up in a complicated, difficult world... where sadness, fear, and pain are unfortunate realities that can not be avoided. -------------------------------------

Of course, we need to prepare our kids for the cold cruel world, but we also need to do so in a way that is best and healthiest for them. Some kids are ready to process pain and fear at a young age, others are not.
It is a parents job to decide when and how to do so.===============

imho, the way we HANDLE these feelings teach a child how to do so for themselves. if we run away or shut out everything that at times feels uncomfortable, then we will often miss chances to grow, and to teach our children that relationships take work and are not always easy. i think with a thoughtful approach, communication, and good boundaries on both sides, these uncomfortable times can be learning opportunities. yes - someone can be sad sometimes, and you don't have to run away from it. yes - relationships are complicated and sometimes they take patience and work. yes - many people can love you at the same time and not be a threat to each other or cancel each other out, just as we all have the capacity to love many people at once. i think children look to adults for clues of how to process emotional situations. while they may indeed "soak up" the emotions of both the b & a parents, and this might not always be fun, they are also learning valuable skills in how to cope with their own unpleasant feelings, and can develop qualities like compassion, loyalty and trust in the processs.-------------------------------------

All of those are ideal and noble sentiments. But we are talking about 3, 4, 5 and 6 yr olds, asking why they do not live with their first mom and her new baby. Don't you think that sometimes those situations might be more complicated and painful than a little heart can realistically handle? The way you describe it above is wonderful, but kids have a life. A regular old life with friends, and school, and sports.
Unfortunately, the kind of emotional rollercoaster you describe above would take a HUGE amount of the kids focus and energy away from doing his regular job- growing up and being a kid.

I think they can process these same feelings with letters, calls, and email. If they request a visit themselves, then GREAT. I just think that the forced visitations that the amoms and bmoms hammer out at birth, sometimes backfire in a bad way and cause disrupted OAS needlessly. ================

achildren are exposed to their aparents experiencing a myriad of emotions over the course of their childhood. they are going to soak some of that up, and they are probably going to imitate the way their parents handle these emotions. i think it would be ridiculous to remove a child from their aparent for a year while the aparent grieves a relative's death, for example, even though a child will surely be sensitive to and affected by their aparent's pain and loss in this situation. -------

But the aparents grief in this example IS NOT CAUSED BY THE KID. Akids feel the GUILT of the pain their bmoms harbor. They get silently saddled with the baggage, and it weighs them down, even though noone means to do that.====================

the most mind blowing aspect of my first reunion with my 23year old birth daughter was WHAT A HUGE ROLE genetics play...we have the exact same mannerisms, voice, tastes, interests, and astoundingly similar personalities. i knew we resembled each other and had a few surface similarities but i was shocked at how alike we are in millions of large and small ways. imo, one of the most beautiful aspects of open adoption is that the child get to see their aparents respecting their biological roots. they get to see with their own eyes that their parents accept and honor the parts of them that are genetic.--------------------------

Your daughter, at 23, was ready to see all these things.
Do you think that at 11 or 12, it might have been hard for her to see you, to see how much she looked like you, but she was not with you. Can you see the conflicting emotions that can surface with these kinds of feelings at the volatile ages of puberty too.

Each situation is different. I do not know yours. But I do know that with a few OAS I know of, seeing the genetic influences made some things harder for the akids daily life. My friends sdaughter really wanted to go live with her bmother because 'she understands me.' The bmother even said to the 13 yr old, sure it is okay with me....She did end up spending a lot of time with her bmom, who was young and hip . But then bmom became engaged to a man from London, and left the country. They exchange emails, but the girl is inconsolable, and feels rejected outright. The aparents wish they had never opened up the semi open afterall.



if contact ends because aparents feel uncomfortable with bparents for no other reason than their emotions are not always "happy" or "easy", then i wonder what the subliminal message is to the child? ------------------

I dont think they usually end it over kid not always being happy, or it not being easy. I know I didnt. ===============

adoption is a situation that is painful, complicated, joyful and scary for all the adults involved. there is no way to change this. -------------------------------

Exactly. complicated, painful, joyful, scary= rough for young children who have not yet built their coping skills
==========================


i really think that presenting it as easy, simple, and always problem free is probably not accurate. but neither is it always the impossible mess that it is all too often portrayed as being. people come to these forums for support, and that means probably more people are inclined to speak out when there is a problem then when there is not. imho, ideally when we have issues in our close relationships (especially familial) we do our best to work them out, to learn communication, empathy and how to set boundaries. if a relationship is toxic or abusive, then children need to be protected and interaction should be terminated. but in any other situation i believe the long term benefits to all parties can outweigh the difficulties of working through the tough times-------------------


I agree. In the long run, things can work out. My point is just that some of the posts I was reading here, were portraying OAS as simple, easy and routine.
That has not been my experience, but every OA is different.. =================

[leoson]

With a grown, adopted, son, adoption has always been an issue I've been interested in. I actually have an "anti-open-adoption" posted in a few different places online (even though I realize that everyone does things differently, based on the people involved).

Maybe because, when I adopted my son, I knew I'd be having children myself as well, I wanted to make sure his life didn't have more of a "different element" to it than his siblings lives had; but I would not have been ok with an open arrangement.

Besides believing that children need one mother/one father at one time, and not wanting to confused my son, with regard to his "belonging"; I will admit to having the "selfish" wish to have with him, what I had with my biological children and what all mothers get to have with their children - in terms of being his one and only mother.

My belief has always been that birth mothers should not place their children for adoption if they still want to keep in touch. Adoption should really only be for those mothers (and they do exist) who say, "I don't want this kid - at all, ever - here, someone take him."

From what I hear the UK now has some modified adoption type of arrangement that allows birth mothers to have someone care for their children, while, essentially (I think), remaining the child's mother. That seems like a reasonable arrangement because then the adoptive mother will know how to present things to the child, and present them in a way to let him know that while she loves him, she's not his mother.

With the trend in open adoption, I'm not sure that adoptive parents are being expected to be unpaid foster parents just until the child is 18 - and I don't think that is best in terms of aiming to give the child a sense of really belonging and permanence.

Kids are resilient, and they often just go with how things are in their own family, so I don't think it "has to be the end of the world" if families are different.

It's just that I had the benefit of one of those traditional, two-parent, families and believed it was the best thing I could offer my own children.

Just thought I'd be the one to offer the different opinion. I'm not saying, and I'm not even sure, my opinion is correct.

[paigeturner]

Originally Posted by leoson

My belief has always been that birth mothers should not place their children for adoption if they still want to keep in touch. Adoption should really only be for those mothers (and they do exist) who say, "I don't want this kid - at all, ever - here, someone take him."

Gag me. Good God, I hope the parents of my son don't have that thought. Ack.

ETA: Upon reading the message above seemed disrespectful. I don't mean that towards the poster, but towards the idea that I somehow didn't want my "kid" at all, ever. I hope my son doesn't feel that way.

[djvj]

Originally Posted by leoson

My belief has always been that birth mothers should not place their children for adoption if they still want to keep in touch. Adoption should really only be for those mothers (and they do exist) who say, "I don't want this kid - at all, ever - here, someone take him."

i am going to try to be as kind as i can here...do you have ANY IDEA of what a birthmother who relinquishes an infant goes through? have you done any research into the topic? have you some bizarre personal experience that leads you to believe that there are an overflowing amount of cold, inhuman woman all over the world who are immune to the biological and emotional instincts of maternal love? i have never, ever EVER in my life heard of ANY woman who has gone through a pregnancy, given birth, and looked around to casually announce "i don't want this kid - at all, ever - here, someone take him."

Originally Posted by leoson

With the trend in open adoption, I'm not sure that adoptive parents are being expected to be unpaid foster parents just until the child is 18

you are joking, right?

Originally Posted by leoson

I will admit to having the "selfish" wish to have with him, what I had with my biological children and what all mothers get to have with their children - in terms of being his one and only mother

except, no matter what you tell yourself, and your son, the fact is AND ALWAYS WILL BE you are NOT his "one and only" mother. you did not conceive, give birth, or make the decision to relinquish. Another human woman, with thoughts, hopes, dreams, fears, weakneses , and YES!!!! gasp - FEELINGS conceived him, carried him inside her womb for 9 months, and gave him the gift of life. therefore, he in does in fact has ANOTHER mother, one that is called his BIOLOGICAL MOTHER.

i do my best to appreciate and respect everyone's right to their own opinion, but i also believe that this type of post is damaging and unhelpful. if you believe that closed adoptions are for the best, great. if you presume to have an inkling of what birthmother's go through, i think you need to do a lot more research than you obviously have.

hope that wasn't too offensive...but i just could not let it go.

[RavenSong]

Hey, guys... don't let that post get you too steamed up. It seems we had a troll in our midst. If you want to have fun, go read all the answers (hints) she gives in her profile.