[lovemy6]

We adopted our kids from foster care. It's almost unheard of to have an OA with parents whose kids were removed for abuse/neglect. We have had a successful OA for seven years with our younger kids' bmom and her family. Several years ago we closed the OA with our older kids' bmom bc of the issues she was causing our kids. They were teens and it was THEIR choice to no longer see her.

There are a lot of misunderstandings about what OA is. People think that we co-parent with our kids' bios. That is SO far from the reality. We have visits twice a year with bmom and her parents. People think the kids will be confused over what her role is. They're not. They know that WE are their parents. Their bmom and her parents are very supportive of us as the parents and full decision makers of our family. Our arrangement would fail if we didn't have this support from them.

I'm not sure if our situation is a win-win-win. Bios get to know their biokids are ok. But they also see how much they've lost. The kids get to see how their bios are. They get to see that their situation hasn't really changed and that they still wouldn't be able to parent. They can see that their bios love them. I guess they can be considered winners in a way. I get to be reminded that I am NOT the bio mom of my kids, that there is another woman that my kids call mom, that there is another woman my kids love as mom. I would rather keep my head in the sand and not be reminded of this until my kids are 18, thank you very much. Visits are very stressful for me. I wish they weren't. I honestly really like their bios, it's not that I don't. It's just that it's hard to take them to "santa" twice a year and then hear about it for weeks after. I'm selfish. I wanna be their one and only.

[gracemetcalf]

Originally Posted by lovemy6

I get to be reminded that I am NOT the bio mom of my kids, that there is another woman that my kids call mom, that there is another woman my kids love as mom. I would rather keep my head in the sand and not be reminded of this until my kids are 18, thank you very much. Visits are very stressful for me. I wish they weren't. I honestly really like their bios, it's not that I don't. It's just that it's hard to take them to "santa" twice a year and then hear about it for weeks after. I'm selfish. I wanna be their one and only.

I appreciate your candor on this particular point. This is what I'm most concerned about regarding OA (I know I would react to visits just as you describe here).

[Leigh131313]

lovemy6 - I can see how things would be so much different in your situation, since the children lived with their bios as their parents for a time.

Gracemetcalf - Are you planning on adopting older children? I adopted a newborn infant and am in an open adoption. Visits were a little more nerve wracking in the beginning (new mom nerves!!) - but now they are just a nice chit chat get together. M does not see his birthmom as his "mom" as she has never played that role in his life (nor does she wish to or in anyway disrespect my role as his mom!!)

This is the exact thinking that I think scares people away...and thus the point of my post!!!!

What else scares you?? Let's discuss!!

[katie52]

What I think is missing at the very beginning of most OA's is the recognition that the baby WILL become a child with their own unique , and strong desires concerning the arrangements.

It is fine for bparents and aparents to hammer out a solid agreement concerning the next 18 yrs of a babies life, BUT when said baby becomes a preteen, and a young teen, things have to change according to the kids wishes. Some may want more visits, more calls, and may want to go stay with bfamilies during vacation. While others may resist contact, dislike talking on the phone, and may even want to cut off all contact.

I know that our 2 OAS were totally different. One child wanted MORE contact as they grew older, another child wanted NO contact as they grew older. In both situations, when the kids are teenagers, the aparents are somewhaT helpless in that role. You cannot force your teenager to speak on the phone, or go to a visit if they adamantly refuse, nor can you convince a bparent to keep in contact, and to stop changing numbers and addresses with no forwarding info.

I guess what I am saying is, the input of the child is necessarily left out of the loop in the very beginning of the agreement. And sometimes, you can not forsee the changes that come when the kid grows into his own and
begins to make his own emotional decisions.

I know of several OA's , one of mine included, which were disrupted because the adoptees refused to continue contact. We were all so busy hammering out our agreements and schedules that we failed to see some of the issues the adoptees themselves were wrestling with.

So my fears are, that families with very young kids,
are forgetting that each child is different . What works for one kid in an OA may not work in another.

Some kids can easily visit with their bfamily, laugh and enjoy it, while others may obsess about it, or dread it, or reject it completely. All 4 parents need to keep this in mind when they envision their future plans.

[proudmum]

Kaie52,,, that is a very valid point,,, something to think on.

[Daisy1339]

Originally Posted by katie52

All 4 parents need to keep this in mind when they envision their future plans.

All 4 parents.....

I'm beginning to figure out what OA means to me. No one is right and no one is wrong when it comes to this decision.

My perspective, my point of view as a hopeful aparent of an infant is that visits are not a good thing for anyone involved.

I've asked myself if I'm being insecure and at first I thought that was it. I've read my posts over and over, sent and received some really heartfelt PM's and came to the conclusion that it isn't insecurity or fear after all.

What's right for you may not be right for me. What's right for the bparents in your OA, may not be what the bparents want in our situation.

No one is right, no one is wrong. I just had to listen to everyone's perspective, try to see things the way they do and come up with my own belief.

Yes, I think that OA can be, and mostly is, misrepresented because there is no set definition. Also, most people have very passionate standings on why they feel visits are important. I respect that.

DH and I will just have to be sure that we find a bmom or bparents that believe in the same definition as we do.

That's the key, I think, to a good OA as you and the bmom/bparents envision it.

[lahdh4]

Originally Posted by lovemy2boys

That's so funny - I used to speak on panels too,relaying how great OA was to prospective parents...I just so happened to have to speak on a night when we were having a horrible time with our OA, and the floodgates opened...UGH!!! I let it all out, but still said that no matter how hard things were, I still believed in OA and that we were determined to make things work...

Sufice it to say, that was 3 1/2 years ago, and I was never asked back...And they cited the same reason you mentioned as to why they don't show the downside of OA...

Ok, Belle and Love, I was asked back because I didn't hold back. I held back alittle bit but I told everyone there some of the darkside.

[katie52]

I've read this a thousand times and don't understand why it isn't understood (I'm not saying YOU don't understand this, I'm not clear). If you don't want to be in a fully OA then don't make that promise to a woman who is about to let you raise her child. Just don't do it!

I feel like "we" get so stuck on this issue and I don't know why ---------------------------------------------------


I think we get stuck on this issue because THINGS CHANGE. I know several a-moms, myself included,
who fully expected to keep their OA agreements intact.

One cannot always foresee the future. If a b-parent arrives for the visit drunk, high and out of control, and has driven their other child to your home, while in that state, you obviously have a problem. The original plans were not set up with drama like that in mind.

When you make' the promise', you do so assuming all will be well. If the bmom goes back to using hard drugs, do you think it is fair to the child, to HAVE to visit her under those circumstances. Kids' know'-they pick up on this type of behavior. Our oldest kids bmom was an alcoholic, who used to be very drunk when we would all get together. She said she couldnt stop being who 'she was' just because we didn't approve.
I think it is far better to shut down visitation, and move to mail contact, than it is to 'keep a promise' and put the child under this negative influence.

Our oldest flat out refused to continue contact-would not speak to her on the phone- did not want letters-because he was so upset by the way she was acting,
coming drunk, and thinking it was funny.

So , when you say a-moms, should keep their promises, no matter what, do you mean even if bmoms
come to see the kids when they are drunk/high?

Would you keep your child in face to face visits if his b-mom was out of control, and proud of it?

[Stormster]

No but I will continue to send updates and photos and give her the opportunity for visits in the future.

I will never close this adoption. When DS is old enough he can decide for himself.

[browneyes0707]

Originally Posted by katie52

I've read this a thousand times and don't understand why it isn't understood (I'm not saying YOU don't understand this, I'm not clear). If you don't want to be in a fully OA then don't make that promise to a woman who is about to let you raise her child. Just don't do it!

I feel like "we" get so stuck on this issue and I don't know why ---------------------------------------------------


I think we get stuck on this issue because THINGS CHANGE. I know several a-moms, myself included,
who fully expected to keep their OA agreements intact.

One cannot always foresee the future. If a b-parent arrives for the visit drunk, high and out of control, and has driven their other child to your home, while in that state, you obviously have a problem. The original plans were not set up with drama like that in mind.

When you make' the promise', you do so assuming all will be well. If the bmom goes back to using hard drugs, do you think it is fair to the child, to HAVE to visit her under those circumstances. Kids' know'-they pick up on this type of behavior. Our oldest kids bmom was an alcoholic, who used to be very drunk when we would all get together. She said she couldnt stop being who 'she was' just because we didn't approve.
I think it is far better to shut down visitation, and move to mail contact, than it is to 'keep a promise' and put the child under this negative influence.

Our oldest flat out refused to continue contact-would not speak to her on the phone- did not want letters-because he was so upset by the way she was acting,
coming drunk, and thinking it was funny.

So , when you say a-moms, should keep their promises, no matter what, do you mean even if bmoms
come to see the kids when they are drunk/high?

Would you keep your child in face to face visits if his b-mom was out of control, and proud of it?

There is a big difference between closing an adoptio because a birthmother is out of control with a substance abuse problem than closing an adoption when the birthmother has remained a stable positive force in the relationship.

When I read " you should keep promises no matter what" I'm thinking the situation is the latter, not the former.

[thanksgivingmom]

Originally Posted by katie52

I've read this a thousand times and don't understand why it isn't understood (I'm not saying YOU don't understand this, I'm not clear). If you don't want to be in a fully OA then don't make that promise to a woman who is about to let you raise her child. Just don't do it!

I feel like "we" get so stuck on this issue and I don't know why ---------------------------------------------------


I think we get stuck on this issue because THINGS CHANGE. I know several a-moms, myself included,
who fully expected to keep their OA agreements intact.

One cannot always foresee the future. If a b-parent arrives for the visit drunk, high and out of control, and has driven their other child to your home, while in that state, you obviously have a problem. The original plans were not set up with drama like that in mind.

When you make' the promise', you do so assuming all will be well. If the bmom goes back to using hard drugs, do you think it is fair to the child, to HAVE to visit her under those circumstances. Kids' know'-they pick up on this type of behavior. Our oldest kids bmom was an alcoholic, who used to be very drunk when we would all get together. She said she couldnt stop being who 'she was' just because we didn't approve.
I think it is far better to shut down visitation, and move to mail contact, than it is to 'keep a promise' and put the child under this negative influence.

Our oldest flat out refused to continue contact-would not speak to her on the phone- did not want letters-because he was so upset by the way she was acting,
coming drunk, and thinking it was funny.

So , when you say a-moms, should keep their promises, no matter what, do you mean even if bmoms
come to see the kids when they are drunk/high?

Would you keep your child in face to face visits if his b-mom was out of control, and proud of it?

I don't think there's a person on here - not even a firstmom herself - that would say that you MUST keep an adoption open if there's severe substance abuse going on.

I think most of us have commented on adoptions closing for reasons like children "behaving differently" for a short period after a visit as being poor reasons to close an adoption.

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by katie52

I've read this a thousand times and don't understand why it isn't understood (I'm not saying YOU don't understand this, I'm not clear). If you don't want to be in a fully OA then don't make that promise to a woman who is about to let you raise her child. Just don't do it!

I feel like "we" get so stuck on this issue and I don't know why ---------------------------------------------------


I think we get stuck on this issue because THINGS CHANGE. I know several a-moms, myself included,
who fully expected to keep their OA agreements intact.

One cannot always foresee the future. If a b-parent arrives for the visit drunk, high and out of control, and has driven their other child to your home, while in that state, you obviously have a problem. The original plans were not set up with drama like that in mind.

When you make' the promise', you do so assuming all will be well. If the bmom goes back to using hard drugs, do you think it is fair to the child, to HAVE to visit her under those circumstances. Kids' know'-they pick up on this type of behavior. Our oldest kids bmom was an alcoholic, who used to be very drunk when we would all get together. She said she couldnt stop being who 'she was' just because we didn't approve.
I think it is far better to shut down visitation, and move to mail contact, than it is to 'keep a promise' and put the child under this negative influence.

Our oldest flat out refused to continue contact-would not speak to her on the phone- did not want letters-because he was so upset by the way she was acting,
coming drunk, and thinking it was funny.

So , when you say a-moms, should keep their promises, no matter what, do you mean even if bmoms
come to see the kids when they are drunk/high?

Would you keep your child in face to face visits if his b-mom was out of control, and proud of it?

Wow, I don't think a single one of us is advocating that a child be exposed to that stuff. I think that boundaries can be set on BOTH sides. There are things that can be deal breakers for everyone.

I think that most of us are just saying there should be good reasons for closing adoptions and substance abuse is one.

[blessedbybug]

I really don't think it is misrepresented here at all, as people here are speaking to their OWN relationship. The problem that comes up at least as far as I see it is when people try to put their own representation or interpretation or values based on their own experiences (or lack of experience) on another relationship.

When I speak to how hard our OA's are, and how hard I work to keep them open in spite of the struggles in my children's other families, it doesn't mean that everyone else has to do what I do or feel like they aren't doing enough or that I'm putting my kids through too much. It is the decision my family has made and I speak to our experiences only, and only in hopes that it might help someone who finds themselves in a similar relationship.

I think too many times we try to fit the RELATIONSHIPS into a cookie cutter and say "if it doesn't look like this then it isn't OA". That just isn't true. No relationship is identical. Take what you get from what others say. Think about it. Learn from it. Discard what doesn't fit for you. And then let it go.

We made the decisions to work towards openness in the relationships with the other families of our kids. And honestly, I wish I, in my postings and other writings, could "represent" the kind of OA of which you speak, Leigh. But our haven't turned out that way and I expect they never will be. It doesn't mean you or I misrepresent anything when we speak to the relationships with our children's birth families. They are what they are...

[katie52]

I could see why you would think of the former,' amoms just closing,' even if bmoms are a stable influence, as more of an issue than bmoms who are 'using' again.

I have not been on this board very long, so I have not read all the examples you may be thinking of.

In my experience, of the dozen or so OA families I have known, when the bfamily was a stable, positive influence for the child, the aparents were thrilled. I did not see disruptions or closed OAs because of that problem.

I have not seen people talk about it on here much, and maybe it is highly sensitive subject, but the ' emotional backlash' an akid often goes through after visits with bfamily can be very very difficult. Bparents speak here of how intensely emotional they may be, before, during and after such visits. They feel hypersensitive, then let down, depressed. A-kids sometimes go through similar
emotions. Not in the beginning of course. OA is smooth sailing through toddler hood. But right about 3 yrs of age, especially 4, 5, 6, yrs, the inquisitive years, all of the real comprehension of 'not being kept' comes up.
It is often more difficult than you understand, to try and help them make sense of the whole thing. And quite often, the kids just stop wanting to deal with the intensity of it. There are so many things that can make it awkward and uncomfortable for them, that they just do not want to deal with it. And really, even if the bmom did not do anything 'wrong'- if the underlying tension and emotion of the situation, seeps into the kids consciousness, he just may not be ready to handle it.

Bmoms often describe how incredibly difficult it is for them to handle the visits sometimes, because they feel so many conflicting feelings. Well, the kids are soaking up all those feelings, and the feelings of the aparents, who are harboring similar ones, and they just get overwhelmed with it all.

I know of about 10 preteeens/ teens who flat out refused to have ongoing visits with bfamily as they grew up. All of the cases were pretty much blamed on the aparents, because they would have to say, NO, it is having an adverse effect on the kid.

When we entered our OA's, we thought it would prevent our kids from dealing with the most difficult parts of being adopted. And it did pretty much do that. They know their bfamilies, their histories, who they look like, But it could not really be the 'ideal' , wonderful, simple
plan of sharing holidays together in a loving extended
family. We found it to be too emotionally explosive for that idealistic dream.

And I do not think it is really anyones fault. I just think we may underestimate the power of unresolved emotions, and how intensely they may affect kids just trying to get by in their day to day lives.

[Stormster]

Can we just define "closed" ....because to me closing means cutting off all contact including photos which to me is not OK even in MOST drug abuse situations (any that I can think of).

Obviously if the visits are filled with issues you stop the visits temporarily but people are ever evolving human beings and I don't think cutting her off is going to help my son's birth mother get clean. If anything it would drive her to use. Would I subject my son to her when she's high? Of course not! But I am in a very different situation....long story but I'd be happy to elaborate via PM if you are interested.

We really are coming from our own definitions of OA so it's hard to debate this issue without clearly defining what open and closing means to you.

Katie I hear you and I am definitely in the toddler phase. You clearly have a lot of experience and I appreciate your perspective and thoughts.