[GeorgiaGrl]

I have a question about using agencies. After the bparents sign their parental rights over to an adoption agency and BEFORE the adoption is finalized, what rights do the adoptive parents have? Are they like foster parents or babysitters?

What recourse would they have if an agency was unethical?

Thanks in advance,
Bridget

[court5505]

Can you be more specific in what kinds of rights you mean?

[GeorgiaGrl]

As an example, we have friends whose agency has charged them with things they don't agree with (e.g., paying $ to help the bmom "on her way" after she gets out of prison someday). They paid the $ at the time because they wanted their daughter. The agency then pushed back the adoption finalization for reasons they never made clear. It just shocks me that my friends don't seem to have any recourse.

--Bridget

[SchmennaLeigh]

Considering the agency asked for unethical money, why are you shocked that the agency is continuing to act unethically? Your friend's family has no recourse because they agreed to the unethical expenditures and therefore can't get a judge to look at thier case.

[blessedbybug]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGrl

As an example, we have friends whose agency has charged them with things they don't agree with (e.g., paying $ to help the bmom "on her way" after she gets out of prison someday). They paid the $ at the time because they wanted their daughter. The agency then pushed back the adoption finalization for reasons they never made clear. It just shocks me that my friends don't seem to have any recourse.

--Bridget

I'm not a big defender of agencies as a whole. There are good ones that seem to work with the best interest of the parties involved. They seem to be few as far as I can tell. There are also bad ones who seem to prey on people who desperately want to have a child in their family and the mothers who are struggling with decisions about an unexpected pregnancy.

I may be in the minority here but I believe (and it's just MY OPINION) it is the potential adoptive parents job to make sure the agency with whom they choose to work is ethical, not only financially but in the way they counsel expecting parents considering adoption.

If an agreement was signed with general agreements about "birthmother expenses" and the p/aparents choose to pay them without determining the details of what the agency is expecting, I wouldn't think they have any recourse. I don't know what is legal in their state regarding any expecting/birth mother expenses. Here (in Alberta, Canad), all of these kind of expenses are against the law so it is a safeguard for ALL involved. We don't have to make decisions about paying dollars for questionable practices. I know this practice is not unheard of... whether it is ethical or legal I don't know. But the aparents chose to work with the agency who had this practice.

And it is also the responsibility of paparents to act in an ethical manner themselves. IF your friends went ahead and paid this money "just to get their daughter" (as you stated) I would say they have some if not alot of responsibility in this matter. Of course, the agency should do their part to make sure those they work with understand what they're doing, but there is no guarantee. "Getting a child" at all costs, and with little consideration for whether or not they are doing "the right thing" is one of the things that makes adoption a questionable practice, at least as it stands today, to many people.

I would imagine that they are stuck for these expenses since they chose to pay them without questioning it back then. Maybe they did question it, but they still paid it.

As for the finalization, often the agency has nothing to do with the timeline, unless they are holding up the paperwork which may or may not be with good cause.

The bottom line to me is this... yes, p/aparents have rights, more than anyone else IMO. They choose to work with certain people to bring a child in their family. Usually the agency is looking out for the p/aparents because they're the one paying. P/aparents have every right to say "no" if they see questionable practices. They have every right to turn down a situation if it doesn't fit with what they think is right. And they could contest the charges if they want. It is their right.

As for whether or not aparents are "foster" parents until finalization, this is for the most part, true. Agencies are actually the legal guardians of the child until the adoption is final.

[mom2justynsarah]

It depends on the state in which your child was born. For example, in the case of California (where my daughter was born), the birthparents have up to six months to change their minds (before finalization). Even after finalization, the state of California leans (IN MY OPINION and EXPERIENCE) WAY over to the birthmother's rights. Altthough my daughter is almost four, I had a situtation a few months ago that could have rocked my world. Although my daughter's adoption has been finalized for years, her bmom really could have caused me a lot of grief. Fortunately, she just wanted to be a b**ch and have HER way. If you are interested in details, I will relay the incident to you privateley.

[GeorgiaGrl]

I have had my own unsavory experiences with agencies, that I won't go into openly. "Just2" -- do PM me, if you can.

In my experience, if you complain about ANYTHING, they lash out. Obviously, I agree with Tammy 100% in that I am not a big supporter of agencies. Usually, when you pay for a service, you have a right to complain. I wish ShmennaLeigh was right and a judge WOULD consider looking at the case of an adoptive parent who has an issue with an agency BEFORE compliance with the agency's request. Maybe in some states--??

In my friends' case, they have since asked for a much more detailed explanation of bmom costs. They see that the costs are not reasonable/legal, but they are afraid if they complain, the agency will seek retaliation.

Frankly, now that their adoption *IS* final, I think it might be just the time to go after the agency (assuming there is even a way to do that). On the other hand, I am the one who has gotten into trouble with my agency for raising issues, so I may not be the best "model!"

-Bridget

[Linny]

I'll tell you.....I think adoptive parents DO have SOME Rights......but they really need to do their homework before they select an agency, in order to know what they can/can't do.

I give this info out so many times on several boards. Some people think it's good; others don't. But........I always advise new paps to fully consider that adoption is (sadly) a business. And, many adoption agencies will ask for expenses up front; further, they'll also expect you to pay for birthmother expenses. If you're not comfortable with doing either of those---DON'T. Go find another agency. There ARE agencies that DON'T ask for tons of monies up front; and, there are states and situations that don't expect or require tons of monies for birthmother expenses.
It's good to consider that once that money's gone...it's GONE. It should never be paid as as reason to get a baby...because the agency, nor the birthfamily has to look at that money that way. (And, why would you want the money to a birthfamily to look that way?)

As for us personally, we refuse to pay huge amounts of money to an agency OR a birthmother. Because of this, we've had to turn down situations. But, because of this, we've been able to keep our own money and wait for a situation we can afford. It takes longer, I agree....but we know where the money's going and to whom it's going to.

I'm all for agencies.....but you really have to do your homework in order to know which ones to work with, and which to stay away from. (And there are a lot to stay away from......)

Sincerely,

Linny

[mom2justynsarah]

I respectfully disagree. Adoptive parents have no legal right until the birthmother signs the papers (and in some cases, until the adoption is finalized). Yes, there are quite a few unsavory and unethical adoption agencies around. They prey on unsuspecting and vulnerable adoptive parents. So yes, adoptive parents really must do their homework. All I have to say (and I have said it many times before) be aware of the laws in the state in which your child was born. They will dictate the rights of the aparents and birthparents.

My daughter was born in California. We live in S. Florida. So we had an interstate adoption. California is pro birthparent (ESPECIALLY Birthmother), and Florida is pro adoptive parent. Thankfully because of our savy and very experienced lawyer (in Florida), she added a few extra legal steps that our daughter's bparents had to sign BEFORE we took our daughter home with us. This was a step to terminiate their rights in California BEFORE finalization. However, even after three years, if Dee really wanted to make my life miserable, she technically can (because of the state of California). I can explain privately if interested.

Originally Posted by Linny

I'll tell you.....I think adoptive parents DO have SOME Rights......but they really need to do their homework before they select an agency, in order to know what they can/can't do.

I give this info out so many times on several boards. Some people think it's good; others don't. But........I always advise new paps to fully consider that adoption is (sadly) a business. And, many adoption agencies will ask for expenses up front; further, they'll also expect you to pay for birthmother expenses. If you're not comfortable with doing either of those---DON'T. Go find another agency. There ARE agencies that DON'T ask for tons of monies up front; and, there are states and situations that don't expect or require tons of monies for birthmother expenses.
It's good to consider that once that money's gone...it's GONE. It should never be paid as as reason to get a baby...because the agency, nor the birthfamily has to look at that money that way. (And, why would you want the money to a birthfamily to look that way?)

As for us personally, we refuse to pay huge amounts of money to an agency OR a birthmother. Because of this, we've had to turn down situations. But, because of this, we've been able to keep our own money and wait for a situation we can afford. It takes longer, I agree....but we know where the money's going and to whom it's going to.

I'm all for agencies.....but you really have to do your homework in order to know which ones to work with, and which to stay away from. (And there are a lot to stay away from......)

Sincerely,

Linny

[GeorgiaGrl]

If your agency does things you don't agree with (AND it is not feasible to switch agencies for for financial reasons), to whom do you complain?

[GeorgiaGrl]

Mom2justynsarah addressed my issue--I am talking about aparents AFTER their child is home. As for choosing an agency, I am sure we all "do our homework."

[blessedbybug]

Originally Posted by mom2justynsarah

Adoptive parents have no legal right until the birthmother signs the papers (and in some cases, until the adoption is finalized).

As p/aparents, long before we ever are "matched" through an agency, we have the legal right not to enter into a relationship with an adoption agency that would ask us to do things we aren't comfortable with or that we see as potentially unethical.

As p/aparent, we have the legal right to not enter into a "match" based on the terms of said match, which may include paying expenses for the expecting mother before or after birth. In the case described by the OP, to me, this is the one that got them. They could have turned down a match where they questioned these expenses, but instead, acc to the OP went ahead and paid them so that the placement would happen. It seems to me that the whole question of whether or not these expenses should have been paid, whether or not the agency should have requested these expenses would be moot if the p/aparents would have worked through it before the match and placement took place. And if that wasn't possible then maybe then maybe they shouldn't have moved forward in this situation. But they did move forward so even though now it may seem they have no rights, they did have rights at the time the decision was made.

And to the OP, as for who to report an agency to, there's always the BBB I guess. But your friends should remember that they did participate by paying the monies.

[GeorgiaGrl]

I shouldn't have given the real-life example of my friend and her husband, because their red flags (regarding their agency) occurred BEFORE their child was in their home and ours occurred AFTER.

Again, I am referring to the rights of adoptive parents AFTER placement and BEFORE finalization.

After your child has come home with you, you are hardly going to "reject" an agency -- that would mean RETURNING YOUR CHILD. Last time I checked, my child was not a defective piece of merchandise.

[Linny]

I'll tell you.....I think adoptive parents DO have SOME Rights......but they really need to do their homework before they select an agency, in order to know what they can/can't do. ---Linny

Whoa! I didn't speak specifically to the rights of individual states. I merely said that adoptive parents DO have SOME rights...and I still stand by my statement that they do. Yes, there are some states/instances that would seem adoptive parents have their hands tied....(which is exactly why adoptive parents should do some homework to know which states are better than others for various reasons, etc.)
But, if you're speaking specifically to 'after signing of the papers relinquishing rights' and before finalization?
The agency (if you're using one) has the jurisdiction over the child until finalization takes place.

And, as far as all paps 'doing their homework'....believe me, many don't. Gads, dh and I knew very little about domestic adoptions when we first started with domestic adoption, which is why I'm pretty vocal about matching and paying tons of monies up front. I don't think anyone should have to be 'out' a ton of money before they even get a child/baby.

And, as far as the BBB......I"ve read here, and on other sites as well, complaining to the BBB has limited effect on any agency. To me....by far the best way to know about an agency, is to check with other adoptive parents here, and on other sites as well.

Finally, I would agree with blessedbybug in that the couple chose to enter into the situation with money up front. I hate that they've lost the money they have, I really do and I empathize with them. (I've had friends who've lost over 5k submitting $$ to an agency, just to get started---and I'm NOT talking about doing their homestudy either.)
But, when they agreed to pay the monies-- knowing it was a 'matched' situation--they went into it with eyes opened, it seems to me. Again, I"m sorry they lost the $$ they did. I see this all too often with adoptions and I think it's awful; but I honestly don't see any recourse in this case.

Sincerely,

Linny

[Linny]

Georgia....read your post after I posted mine.

From my experience....once the birthmother has released her child for adoption....and if you used an agency....from our experience......the birthmother gave her consent TO the agency; then the agency has jurisdiction over the baby.
This is because the state involved has to assure the baby is not abused, is taken care of properly, etc. (I understand this is NOT talking about your care or anything like that; but I can tell you, I am aware of a situation where the adoptive parents DID abuse the baby they brought home and the agency, then, took the baby back.)
As far as a birthmother having jurisdiction to change her mind and take the baby back---ONCE she's signed relinquishments TO the agency? I'm not aware of that at all. I've always understood that the agency---then---had jurisdiction---at least in the states we've adopted from (IL and FL).

...After your child has come home with you, you are hardly going to "reject" an agency -- that would mean RETURNING YOUR CHILD. Last time I checked, my child was not a defective piece of merchandise. --Georgiagirl

I"m not understanding why you're so angry after asking your questions to any of us? No one is implying your child was or is 'a defective piece of merchandise'. I don't know that anyone stated you should 'reject' your agency once you've received placement.
Honestly, I"m trying to understand here.....

If your agency was unethical in the way they've handled your placement, I think none of us can give any advice until we'd know the specifics of which you're talking, KWIM?
I'm sorry this has been hard on your family, and I think some of us are willing to help if we can with suggestions; but until we know more about the specifics, it's hard to do.

Sincerely,

Linny