[SupaModel]

I KNOW God blessed us with H. He gave us everything we wanted and more. I do believe H is better off with us. Only because right now bmom can't afford to give him the life she wants him to have. Also she wanted H to have a 2 parent home. His bmom is an amazing and loving girl and I hope we can make her proud. I believe god brought us togther!

[crick]

I am a believer in choices and those choices direct/impact our lives and others lives at times too. Doesn't mean there isn't pain or suffering involved with the choices we make or even regret. Just means we did ultimately make the choices we did.

It's a hard thing to look at some people's choices that in the end I benefit from. I can have compassion for those choices but I can't own them either. With my kids, I mean...I can have compassion for their first parents to a degree, and I did become a mom (benefit) due to their choices in life. Doesn't mean my joy of being a mom means I am relishing in their poor choices or hurt though, if that makes sense. They are connected in ways, but still separate too.

[aspenhall]

I got to see my dd's life FIRST HAND, what it was like after being parented by her bmom for 3.5 yrs, and now by us nearly exactly 3.5 yrs as well, and I can state categorically, that in our situation she is DEFINATELY BETTER OFF. My dd was extremely insecure and mal-adjusted, mal-nourished, and generally completely out of control beyond anything I'd ever seen. Now, after being parented by us, she is smart, responsible and generally well-behaved. She usually thinks things through, is TOTALLY secure for the most part and basically exhibits NONE of the behavioral issues we witnessd in the beginning.

So, in my situation, I feel I'm justified in stating firmly, that she IS better off with us. She went from spiraling downward out of control, to soaring with the eagles....we each had equal time to parent her, and as soon as I became her mom, she started to abandon her old behaviors...when at the time of her placement, there seemed to be no end or hope of anything changing.

She did have to pay a price to gain such stability, but the pain associated with her adoption affects her so minimally that you really can't even tell it's there most days...where before, the pain and trauma of neglect was READILY EVIDENT by her very telling behaviors and reactions. Her brother still has issues and he's still being raised by the dad (who does a better job now on his own).....but it reaffirms in my mind how my dd benefits from the adoption in such a major way that it isn't hard to tell at all.

And, yes, she's older now, but the behaviors dramatically lessened before even 6 months had passed, so maturing had little to do with her emotional progress.

And besides, she's never held a knife over me while I slept, like she did to her bmom once......so I think SHE sees she's better off as well.....

[Stormster]

I just want to say I do believe in a higher power but nobody made our adoption happen but me. I worked my butt off and failed over and over and over again.

DS's birth mother has four children she did not raise. She suffers every day from the mistakes she has made and I know her heart ACHES because she cannot parent them.

Kind of makes you think about Buddhism Leigh!

This debate is silly to me. All we as people should care about is loving the children and making sure they all get the nurturing they need! All children. If they are born they need to be cared for. They are not possessions. I could go on but sometimes I feel we focus too much on our own experiences and not on the children.

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by Stormster

This debate is silly to me. All we as people should care about is loving the children and making sure they all get the nurturing they need! All children. If they are born they need to be cared for. They are not possessions. I could go on but sometimes I feel we focus too much on our own experiences and not on the children.

THANK YOU!! AND then the children grow to be adults.

Thats precisely what adoption is about. Its about the person adopted. AS much as on some level tha mothers either gain or lose from the situation, there would be no situation to discuss if there was no adopted person. FAR to often the needs of the child is lost. If in fact the child can't not be given what they need...from the start then they need to be placed with someone that can give it to them...freely...without the pain of their losses carried on the adopted persons shoulders.

I don't think anyone can make a blanket statement in terms of discussing whether kids are meant to be or better off. It is alwys an indivual thing. I think most adotpted adults can figure out the truth on whether they were better off or not. Maybe thats who should be listened to and the why's of it all.

[manni28]

I'm not sure if I'm reading your point correctly but "choice" doesn't mean that pain and anguish should just be accepted then. I really don't want to try to liken it to anything or compare pain, but I would never tell a couple that didn't try to concieve children until later in life that their IF issues were their fault and that they chose that path and should deal with the pain and anguish they experience. Likewise, I don't appreciate others insinuating that since I made a choice to place my child anything that is a result of my choice is something I was asking for.

It's entirely inappropriate in my opinion. We don't do it to others and we shouldn't do it here.

I’m not saying that one deserves to feel pain and suffering, but to insinuate apparents shouldn’t rejoice and feel their family was meant to be or the child is ‘better off” (which sometime is true) to not right either. Your pain ( as harsh as it may sound) is the result of your choice. It’s not fair to diminish the happiness of a family being created because of choices one makes in life.

-Manni28

[thanksgivingmom]

Originally Posted by manni28

I’m not saying that one deserves to feel pain and suffering, but to insinuate apparents shouldn’t rejoice and feel their family was meant to be or the child is ‘better off” (which sometime is true) to not right either. Your pain ( as harsh as it may sound) is the result of your choice. It’s not fair to diminish the happiness of a family being created because of choices one makes in life.

-Manni28

And if you read back I don't believe one single post was attempting to diminish any kind of joy. Perhaps I'm wrong, I didn't review every post just this minute. You can rejoice and feel joy...I can't change how people "feel" about their family being meant to be - but it's also my right to voice my opinion on how that makes me feel. It wasn't meant to take away anyone's joy over their family.

I wonder how Cupcake will feel one day if her Mother tells her she was meant to be with her...when we have a good open relationship (which is what we're all working on)....she may agree, she may not, but I certainly will be interested that. I certainly will think that she will love her Mom and be glad she's in her life, but I wonder how she'll think about her life as being predestined like that.

How about how children that are adopted feel whose adopted parents are abusive? AParents that are alcoholics? (Yes, these things happen) Was that "meant to be"??

[crick]

I haven't seen any "diminishing" of anyone...just all sharing opinions and thoughts really. Sometimes it's hard to separate things out and really view a post for what it is. When I read posts by firstmoms talking about their pain, I don't sit there and think "oh, because they are in pain that means I can't feel joy of my own family". Some posts might be really hard for me to read and I might even feel some "guilt" eventhough I'm not involved, but I still try to separate things out. Listening is 9/10ths of the forums here, imo.

Personally I really hate it when someone says "well you made your bed, now lie in it". Yes...we all make choices (some don't have control etc) but since when does making a choice in anything in life mean we can't feel pain from that choice? Or even if "content" with a choice, still wonder about it?

I made the choice to adopt 4 kids at once. I was more than okay with that choice. Doesn't mean though that there are some days when I go "geez...this is a hard day!" I don't want to hear "Well, you made that choice and you should be happy you are a mom so shush!" kwim?

I don't mean to pick apart anyone etc. either...just commenting on things that seem to be stemming from the discussion here.

[manni28]

I wonder how Cupcake will feel one day if her Mother tells her she was meant to be with her...when we have a good open relationship (which is what we're all working on)....she may agree, she may not, but I certainly will be interested that. I certainly will think that she will love her Mom and be glad she's in her life, but I wonder how she'll think about her life as being predestined like that.

If your bchild's mom is a good mother, your bchild may agree that she and her amom were mean't to be a family.

How about how children that are adopted feel whose adopted parents are abusive? AParents that are alcoholics? (Yes, these things happen) Was that "meant to be"??

That's different. I'm talking about children who are in loving stable homes versus an environment where instability, drama and dysfunction is a way of life. Let’s be very honest, majority of the time a woman places a child is because there’s some chaos/instability in her life. Not to say in an adoptive home there isn't, but one doesn’t place their child just to place them. There are reasons/ situations why bparents place their children.

In addition, I do believe there are guardian angels that lead us to one another

[Mommy24]

Originally Posted by manni28

Let’s be very honest, majority of the time a woman places a child is because there’s some chaos/instability in her life. Not to say in an adoptive home there isn't, but one doesn’t place their child just to place them. There are reasons/ situations why bparents place their children.

In addition, I do believe there are guardian angels that lead us to one another

Manni, are you in so much pain that it makes you feel better to come here and try and hurt people with your words? Sometimes I really wonder what your motivation is?

I am sorry that you obviously have not had a good experience with adoption, but to come here and time after time belittle birth parents makes me feel very sad for you.

[Stormster]

TGmom I totally hear you.

But I also feel that for aparents struggling with guilt, threads like this press a ton of buttons. I truly believe that by saying it's "meant to be" some people might subconsciously dealing with their guilt about the pain their children's birthmothers feel.

I know that there are people who will disagree with me, esp. religious people - but when birthmothers put the responsibility of their choices on others, Esp. posts that imply that the WRONG choice was made in placing, it can make the Aparents here feel defensive.

I believe that saying the adoption is God's will helps give certain people more peace with the pain so they can be joyful parents. Most religious people think that everything is God's will so of course it will carry over into adoption.

I personally manage my guilt differently but by escalating the level of defensiveness here I don't think we get anywhere. Esp. when so many members are very spiritual. Do you see what I mean?

edited to add: I am not saying spirituality is all about guilt but I do think it can help make sense of pain, I am spiritual and I am sure there are many people who are not guilty.

[paigeturner]

Originally Posted by manni28

I do believe there are guardian angels that lead us to one another[/font][/color]

It wasn't a guardian angel or god that led me to the backseat of that chevy...it was beer.

[Fran27]

I totally agree with you Stormster.

I mean, I wonder how birthmoms would feel if we went to their board and gave our opinion about everything just to make them feel horrible. Somehow, I don't think it would be very appreciated. I'm sorry some birthmoms really struggle with their decision but it's pretty low to come here and try to guilt trip adoptive parents.

[manni28]

[quote]
Manni, are you in so much pain that it

makes you feel better to come here and try and hurt people with your words? Sometimes I really wonder what your motivation is?
I am sorry that you obviously have not had a good experience with adoption, but to come here and time after time belittle birth parents makes me feel very sad for you.Momm24:

Far from it! I'm just being realistic. I'm an adoptee and I have a good life with excellent parents and sibling I wouldn’t trade for the world. What I don't understand is when an adoptee speaks of being happy they're in denial or in pain. I personally think some bparents are in denial. I can understand the hurt a bparent feels when the bchild doesn’t feel the same way. I can also understand the feelings they may have when they read a thread like this. However, life is about being realistic. As painful as it maybe, it’s about being realistic and seeing the situation for what it is. If your child or your child’s aparents feel they were destined to be together, so be it.

Isn’t that what a bparent wants for the child- to be happy!

[crick]

Fran & Stormster - guess it's all how we look at things? I don't see the same thing as you do on here I guess. I don't see any opinion posted that makes me think "guilt trip" at all.

And if you read the bparent forums, there are indeed aparents and adoptees who post there. I'm sure some firstmoms feel the same way even if the intent of those posting is not to put on a "guilt trip".

An open forum like this with everyone posting is one of the best things about this site, imo. Yes, we do need to have some sensitivity and courtesy of WHERE we post because sometimes there are topics that really kind of should just be discussed amongst those directly involved. (I don't see this thread in that light though since the discussion has evolved so much and it's a great discussion for many) However, it still is an open forum and crossing over is encouraged.