[Oliver1]

Partly X-posted:
Regarding generalization in adoption... Are there ever generalizations that are fair? I don't know. I really don't. People can quote me statistics and research until the end of time. People can recommend I read this book or that book. But I take it all with a grain of salt. Because depending on one's particular beliefs, one can always find statistics, books, and research to support that belief. Doesn't matter what side you are on.

I think it is amazing how we try to guess or think we know how our children are going to think, feel and act about their adoption, about their birth parents or about their adoptive parents. The simple fact is that WE DON'T KNOW. And I think that's what is so scary. As our child grows and matures, his/her decisions, feelings, and choices are going to be as unique as he/she is. Our child's decisions, feelings, and choices are going to be impacted by many factors outside of our control, no matter how many books we read or statistics we share or what PC language we use.

All we can do, and are doing, is make the choices and decisions we feel are best. And NO ONE has the right to judge us for those decisions. We can have opinions because of our beliefs and experiences, and that's great. But no one should try to force or coerce someone else to do or see things "their way". Unless we are a part of that specific family, it's not our experience. Just because we think a child *might* react or question one way, doesn't mean that it's a given fact.

There is no "one, right way". Like someone else said, there is no "perfect" solution. There is no "perfect" process. Should adoption be reformed? Is adoption a healthy option? The answers to those questions will be as personal and unique as the experience the answers are based on.

Every single adoption situation is unique. Just like every parent and child is unique. There is no "one size fits most" here. In adoption or any other type of relationship.

[tyiakoum]

Originally Posted by MkMw

I have NEVER heard this before. The only way you could be "targeted and scammed" because of your income is if you put it out there.

Jenna, the dateline thingie tonight is also an update. That woman has been arrested on multiple charges. When she was first filmed, the families involved had no legal recourse to what she did but the publicity (which makes what you do at NBC priceless) drove change for these families in that this woman has been actually now convicted of a crime.

We originally saw that Dateline ep and backed down from using the 'net out of total fear. Then after we'd been waiting 11 mos we were galvanized and took action (in the form of going w/online profiling as well as telling every single person we know and/or have even a remote connection w/ -- when before we were keeping it very low key and only immedi. family and friends knew)

When you are using the 'net, it is like the wild wild west right now with no recourse and no regulations. How we are handling that is, we are having our agency pre-screen any woman who makes contact w/us. The screening is to make sure they have had or plan to have counseling (which is mandated by our state, anyway) as well as making sure that their needs are met and they are advocated for in their home state prior to connecting w/us. Whether that be medical, psych, legal. That is how we chose to counteract the "wild west" of the 'net.

I just want to say this Jenna. Your articulateness and clarity on being a firstmom and being a mom and woman in general has raised my consciousness very effectively. I give you so many kudos, honestly, for being proactive on any pregnant woman's behalf and also trying to educate those of us who are new at adoption issues/the boards and terminology in particular.

I am dead serious when I say that I certainly will be reading some of the books that you have put forth on these boards as worth reading.

If it were not for women who are forthright, hard-charging and dedicated to causes, there would have not been equal rights for women in this country.

Addressing these topics to the adoption population and reading everyone's responses really raises awareness. I could have sat quietly, reading these boards and never responding or writing topics that have meaning to me. I could keep quiet and not "put myself out there" personally. In fact, I struggle with that. But so many people with good intentions that keep their knowledge silent does not bring about awareness and change.

That's why I post here. I get support but also I have knowledge to share and hope that people get something from what I bring to the table.

Respectfully to all,

[SchmennaLeigh]

Tammi;

I personally think it's great that you spoke up as well. It IS important for us to remember that adoption can be good. Ours is even though things went wrong along the way. It's hard work but, in the end, worth it for that little girl's smile.

Thank you for your compliments. I try my hardest to speak in an articulate way. Sometimes I fail but that could be blamed on lack of coffee. Or something. I just personally hate to see ANYONE hurt by unethical practices (expectant Moms like the dateline woman lying to potential families, agencies treating women like incubators, adoptees having problems searching, etc). I know the world will never be perfect. But darn it, I can do my part.

It took me a long time to find my "voice." I, too, was too shy (me?) to speak up at times even if I felt strongly on an issue. Now I'm learning to pick my battles and form a direction that I want to go.

I think you're on a good path of understanding and forward movement, Tammi. Good and bad do exist in some sort of strange dissonant harmony. We just need to make the good sing a little louder.

[tyiakoum]

Jenna, I made my living off my writing and am used to seeing my "voice" on the page but it is a whole different story when it is on the 'net and out there for tons of people to see.

As someone who is nearly double your age, I so admire and respect your stand against unethical practices. I am certain that many of us (including myself), take the same stance as you on many of the issues raised here.

However, as someone who has travelled the world, lived in strange and difficult and 3rd world countries, I can say, that, the human condition is such that at times I despair. Some of the things I have seen, the corruptness of govt and how people can be corrupted by money, power, fame and greed, makes me a bit cynical. I am an idealist but it gets thrown back in my face, a lot!

I was in New Orleans in May. It was a horrible and eye-opening experience for me. I stayed with my girlfriend and her sweetheart. They took me on this "devastation tour", with Mary knowing I would write about it and tell many people... since no one was doing a thing down there to help the people. I took many photographs... it was like the hurricane had just hit, vs. it being 9 mos later.

We went to the lower 9th, which was the most horrifically hit. There were still cadaver dogs searching for bodies. We drove by this home. An old woman was sitting on her front porch, what was left of it, in a rocking chair. Alone. Surrounded on all sides w/a sea of debris from all the totally destroyed and condemned houses that went on for miles and miles around her. I was sick over that sight. I am haunted by this woman.

You cannot believe things like this happen in your own country. And it is proof positive that no matter how big an idealist you are, sometimes fighting the system is quite the uphill battle. Our voices, loud, strong and together, will make things happen if we believe it so...

[loveajax]

As an adoptive mom and the wife of an adult adoptee, I am very glad to see this thread. I have seen a lot of "anti-adoption" stuff lately, and it really has upset me. Not because I don't believe that there are instances of coercion, etc., instances of adopted children feeling a profoud loss, etc., but because of the generalizations that, as a whole, adoption is a "bad" thing. I only need to look at my own family and my husband's family to know that it has been a wonderful thing for us.

At the same time, I also feel that the "movement" if you will marginalizes women (and men) who make an intelligent, thoughtful, albeit extremely difficult, choice to place their children for adoption. I am cognizant of their loss all the time. But I have been told again and again by my DD's birth parents that, as hard as it has been, they know they made the best decision. (Maybe some day they won't feel that way, I hope not, but that's their right, obviously).

Let's face it -- it would be a wonderful world if all pregnant women wanted to and could raise their children and adoption wasn't necessary. Or if there were no such thing as infertility on the other side. But there are always going to be unwanted pregnancies and there are always going to be infertile couples and adoption (ideally) bridges that gap.

That said, I do still think there are many issues with how the adoption "industry" is run. I had a lot of problems with my agency - - not so much re: how they treated DH and me (crummy), but also how little counseling and support they gave to my DD's wonderful birth family. (And this was a "well-established" agency, etc.). I am not sure what can be done to make the process better for everyone (and most importantly the best it can be for the children), but I'm glad there are people talking about these issues.

Thanks! K

[tyiakoum]

K, your note speaks volumes on how important it is to screen your agency heavily before making a choice... whether an expectant mom or an adopting family.

We asked friends who have adopted, and they gave us their choices. Our criteria specified ethical behavior w/regard to outreach and treatment of the pregnant woman. That was our sole criteria. The benefit was, that they are so ethical, they have treated us very well.

The wait has been very long, however, because this agency happens to counsel women to keep their children. that is expected and why we chose this agency. They do all they can to assist w/supports, give extended counseling. Won't even show the profiles of waiting families (and they place w/nontraditional and single families too) until the last minute, when the mom is certain. Even after the birth (we planned on an emergency last minute placement for just that reason).

For those of you starting the journey -- it is a long wait when you know an agency is working towards the total best interests of the pregnant woman. and it is so worth it. Even though we have been waiting a year+ now, it brings me comfort.

Here is statistically what our agency told us happens.

they don't advertise so it is word of mouth, web searches, or walk ins only.

Maximum 40 pregnant women will walk through the door asking for info per year. Of that 40 women, 20 will actually take the info. Of the 20, 14 will get assistance in the form of legal, medical, counseling, etc. Of the 6 who decide to place, they are absolutely certain that this is what they must do.

After placement, they encourage contact. For the most part, the adoptions are not "fully open" because it was the expecting mom's choice to get letters/photos and to send gifts, but not have full contact.

Try and interview your selected agencies and make sure that they are working ethically on all sides.
We "interviewed" five agencies before we selected the one we are working with. We are very happy with the decision, even if our adoption is taking a while. We deliberately chose them for their practices.

[rose32542]

I have often thought of the benefits of using an agency. My trio came to us theough my sister. She knew as soon as she found out she was carrying triplets that she could not care for them. She knew that we were the ones she wanted to (or as she says "who were meant to") have these boys. She ahd nowhere to stay, no one to care for her, so she came and lived with us. In some ways it ws beautiful; I got to go to every single prenatal appt; I got to be there in the room when they were born; I got to care for and serve my children's bmom in a tangible and real way.

In other ways it was far less than ideal. She is my baby sister; We would have let her stay and taken care of her even if she decided t okeep the babies or place them with someone else. In normal circumstances, if we weren't the afamily, I would have been all about helping my sister through this difficult time. On the other hand, if I she hadn't bee npregnant and we had been adopting, she would have focused on celebrating with us and helping us through the hard times of the adoption journey. Because we were so close together though, so intertwined, it was impossible for either of us to really work through the experience. We were both on eggshells much of the time, and for both of us, it was one of the hardest times of our lives.

Things are still somewhat awkward. She has seen the babies. Whenever we get together for a family occasion, she holds them abd plays with them, but she is still very tender. She has three other children who live with her ex husband, so she has expressed to me that she sometimes feels destined to give birth to babies she can't be with. Unfortunately, there is so much history between us as sisters that it is really hard, as I ahve said in other threads, to separate "birthmom" from "sister."

I'm not saying that it is best to not ahve an open adoption, I'm just saying that if we had had some intermediary it would have been easier for everyone. Of course, as has been said many times, there are many different ways adoption happens. I wouldn't trade my babies for anything, and would willingly go through far more to have them here. I also hope that my sister can get the help from somewhere that she can't get from me.

[SchmennaLeigh]

Rose;

It took me over a year to voluntarily seek outside counseling to help me through some of my adoption issues. It took another year and a half to find someone with experience in adoption grief and loss. I'm sorry to hear that you and your sister now have a strain on your relationship. I hope that time can heal that issue. If not for your sake or hers, but for the children.

(PS - Triplets?! AH! )

[dmca]

Well, it depends on the adoption, I suppose.
From my experience, if you are a bmother and have made the decision to relinquish your child, learn to live with that decision and BELIEVE as you did when you made that decision that it was the RIGHT one for you and/or the child. One you accept completely that it was the RIGHT decision, you can allow the family to parent and care for the child, while you are able to BACK OFF and let it happen.
For the adopting parents, SURPRISE, this is YOUR child, so BE PARENTS and hold them above all else.
For the child: it's nice to keep some sort of contact with the bparent(s) so that the child when they are adults can contact them for a variety of reasons.
Pictures, letters once a year, so everyone knows that the child is well and happy. The child will grow up safely in the love and nurturing of their parents and feel okay with contacting the bparents, if they so wish.
If they don't wish, that's fine too. Adults make their own decisions about themselves.
The one thing that seems to be most overlooked is counsilling, *(IMO). perhaps that should be made mandatory ???
I know I would have loved it and taken it greatfully.
I know I'm going to get burnt about this. LOL, but, I do believe in discussion and points of view.
dmca

[SchmennaLeigh]

From my experience, if you are a bmother and have made the decision to relinquish your child, learn to live with that decision and BELIEVE as you did when you made that decision that it was the RIGHT one for you and/or the child. One you accept completely that it was the RIGHT decision, you can allow the family to parent and care for the child, while you are able to BACK OFF and let it happen.

I'm glad you said from your experience because that's not how it magically happens for others. I've never had to "back off." J&D have always been her parents. I've dealt with my issues separate from our relationship. I don't have to "completely accept" anything was right OR wrong. I just have to let them be parents to the Munchkin.

That said, you can't "mandate" someone into counseling. A person has to first recognize a need for help and then voluntarily seek it out, either with help from others or completely on their own. Anyone who has ever tried to "help" someone who didn't want or didn't believe that they needed any kind of help is aware of what pushing someone can do.

[Leigh131313]

Putting my moderator hat on here...

There has been much discussion about generalizations on this thread. Unfortunately, we do not allow people to use sweeping generalizations when posting.

If this becomes a discussion about finding the "true" generalizations, I will have to close the thread.

Thanks guys!

[MkMw]

The screening is to make sure they have had or plan to have counseling (which is mandated by our state, anyway) as well as making sure that their needs are met and they are advocated for in their home state prior to connecting w/us. Whether that be medical, psych, legal. That is how we chose to counteract the "wild west" of the 'net.

Well that part makes sense. Of COURSE anyone who sends money or considers themselves matched without involving adoption professionals is clearly making themselves a huge target - what I don't understand is why you said it had to do with YOUR INCOME???? I don't think scammers worry too much about that - I know people who saved, and scrimped, and mortgaged and got taken for it all...

Our first adoption was via the internet - it was a private adoption. We needed to take a few legal steps prior to recieving proof of pregnancy, counseling verification, and an assessment of her intent while still pregnant. And, we did not consider ourselves "matched" until that was all in place - then we started making real plans to travel (and what a trip is was!). The only agency involvement was to complete our homestudy. Our agency does sound much like yours - they do not advertise and have only facilitated 2 matches in the last year. Most matches/adoptions from connections that adoptive and birth families make themselves via other sources (and often through the internet).

Our 2nd adoption, wound up being through an agency we were signed with as a non-contracted client. BUT prior to that any contacts I had, I referred to our agency and/or attorney (I generally gave them the choice). I still would talk to them but when they didn't contact someone professionally - I wrote them off as a potential match. When people asked me for money, I told that VA (where I live) is very strict on expenses, and that they would need to talk to our agency/attorney about what was legally allowable. That was generally the end of those conversations - not saying they were all scams, some people genuinely need help, and in our state that is tough to do - legally anyway!

What it comes down to is that the internet is great, but expectant and adoptive parents need to verify, verify, verify - just like they would with any information.

[DavidKed]

Putting my moderator hat on here...

There has been much discussion about generalizations on this thread. Unfortunately, we do not allow people to use sweeping generalizations when posting.

If this becomes a discussion about finding the "true" generalizations, I will have to close the thread.

Thanks guys!

So if we were to have a discussion of cancer we couldnt talk about the success of a certain cancer treatment because that would certainly be a generalization.

Could I say that where I live, Minnesota, is cold in the winter and you should wear a warm jacket when you visit in the winter or is that a generalization and it would go against the experience of someone who visited Minnesota in the winter on an unusually warm day.

Why would one not want to seek truths whatever those truths might be? How can you accomplish anything without them? What am I missing here?

[tyiakoum]

Michelle, there are some people who are profile listed and matched on the 'net, who do things independently and there the financials raise difficult issues and scary circumstances. Independently, at what point do you stop helping someone if they need help? This is a hard and heart-wrenching situation.

We decided to use the agency as our intermediary as a result of the above. Many people who have online profiles don't do this. They are "out there" about their lives and they allow direct contact w/out an intermediary, or, they have an intermediary like an attorney, agency or facilitator, but let the expecting mom contact them directly.

I personally, wish so much we had direct contact w/the expecting moms who are using the profile site to contact us. However, to avert any difficulties, we have the agency as the intermediary. After the agency knows that the expecting mom has had counseling then we are able to take over w/direct contact.

If you saw that Dateline ep that is rebroadcast tonight, you would also be moved to use your agency as a "safety net" were you profiled on the web. The 'net IS like the wild west and it's just safer to us to do this.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my original post.

[Leigh131313]

David.

Using yoru example of discussing cancer and it treatments....If you were speaking from YOUR experience there is no issue. You can talk about things that have worked for you. However, if you stand on your soap box yelling "THIS IS THE ONLY TREATMENT" that is NOT ok

Got it?