[sugarbabysmommy]

Originally Posted by AdrienneG

Legally a woman can leave the hospital and drop her baby off with his father to raise.

A few single dad's I know who's mates flew the nest were left to raise their kids by default, a few dads who's former mates said now that the kid is older it's your turn, but dad had to *agree* to take the child (like Oprah's father had to agree). But I've heard about many adoptions that are prevented by a father who says I won't relinquish, but I won't parent either, I am forcing you to raise the child. How often does this happen in reverse? How often does a woman give birth, drive over to dad's house (assuming this wasn't a casual one night with no info exchanged), and say here's your kid... oh and if you want to place it for adoption I won't sign off, I'm going to force you to parent? I guess it must have happened, since pretty much everything has happened at some point.

But if we are to say reproduction rights, or for this arguement right of refusel to parent- which is what the lawsuit is about, should be equal, than that assumes the burdon is born equally by both parties, and it isn't.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Their argument sounds more like trying to give men the right to force an abortion because he doesnt want a child.... not keep her from having one.

If she had one -- he would have nothing to say.

Abortion isnt about reproductive rights, per se, it is more about control of your own body.


This is not a pro-life issue. He is NOT pro-life.

[enchanted]

I know waaaaay more single mothers doing it on their own or nearly on their own. How much does a $50, $100 child support check per month (depending on the state, income, etc. of involved parties) really even cover? I know, as a nanny, how much my employers pay ME to watch over their offspring... and I'm willing to bet one month's salary that the national child support average is nowhere NEAR half of that amount. And I don't look after them 24/7; I don't lay awake at night wondering about every little facet of their upbringing (most of the time); I don't have to skip work and stay home with a sick child, etc. etc.

I've seen so many men just walk away and literally disappear. I have known NO single fathers, at all. If there is inequality and unfairness in the raising of children, do we really believe that society has progressed so far that now MEN bear the brunt of raising the next generation of our species? I look around and I DON'T see it. For instance, I have never been hired by a father, ever. It is always the mother looking for childcare. When was the last time your own husband called up the babysitter? How many of you have husbands who initiated the adoption proceedings and did most of the work? Even half of the work?

Both men and women have the responsibility for preventing pregnancy. Once a pregnancy occurs, then it is automatically the responsibility of the woman carrying it. NEVER, after that point, will she EVER be able to just opt out. To just walk away, say "I'm not dealing with this, I don't want to." She will either have to go through an abortion, the costs of which she will be completely accountable for, or she will have to give birth, and either make an adoption plan or parent. She can't just sign her rights away; no adoption can happen without the consent of the father of the child. No matter what, she has to do SOMETHING. She CAN'T just "opt out." Financing and undergoing a medical procedure isn't "opting out," it's taking responsibility for a choice made, and a man does not have that option-- but he also does not have that burden.

Yet I know men who've done just that, who wait years until they've got court date summons on their doorstep, not thinking about it at all. I know personally a situation where a man was collecting $1,000 a month from the Canadian government, claiming he was raising a daughter his girlfriend had abandoned, when in actuality he had not seen her since she was three months old. Went on until she was over two years old. In that time he paid $0 in child support.

I agree with these men. The situation is nowhere even REMOTELY equal. How does writing off a check for a small percentage of your income even remotely compared to the struggle that single mothers go through? How is the fact that there are many men who never have and never will pay any support for their children equal? How is the fact that there are MANY MANY more single mothers as opposed to single fathers, that women still in this day and age bear the brunt of childrearing, even though they are also expected to still work full time while making less on the dollar than men do even REMOTELY equal?

When I look around me, at my OWN single mother, at my friends doing it on their own, I see the inequalities every day. The sad thing is, it is the children who suffer in all of this-- once a baby is born, that child is ENTITLED to the support of BOTH of it's parents. I often don't see that happening, though. And it's not the mamas that need to be taken to task on this one.

[AdrienneG]

Originally Posted by FH-numbr1dbcksfan

They give you the form in the hospital and they have it notarized there for you(if dad is there). If you dont do that you have to pick up the form at vital statistics and take it to be notarized and turn it in. Either way, needs to be notarized to get his name on the Birth Certificate without a DNA test. (This is in AZ -- It is a state by state issue..)

I understand now. That I didnt know! I learn something new everyday! Ive always assumed there was a procedure for the father's name being put on the birth certificate.

[michellemartin]

How I see it...

Men and women bear equal rights in getting pregnant. Both can keep their pants on if they opt to.
Women alone bear the responsibility of carrying a pregnancy to term, so therefore women alone bear the choice to terminate or continue it. I dont see this as an unequal option for men.
After the child is born, once again, both parties have equal rights to the child. Either one can choose to parent, forcing the other to "parent" as well.

So all in all, the laws are as equal as the biology at this time .

[AdrienneG]

Originally Posted by alwaysus

we as women can choose to terminate a pregnancy, a man can't...Therefore men do NOT have the same reproductive rights. A woman can choose not to have to have to be financially responsible for a child a man can not. That is NOT equal.

This may sound harsh but we are responsible for who we chose to have sex with, whether we are male or female.

Chosing to sleep with someone and chosing not to use contraceptive is also chosing to accept the risks of pregnancy, be you male or female.

Just because a man places his genetic material into a woman doesnt mean one is responsible and the other isn't. Hes responsble for what he does with his own body as she is for hers.

If he was hard core against fatherhood, he could get a vasectomy or use a condom or wear two of them during sex with a woman regardless of if she says she is on the Pill or doesn't.

Actually a man can chose not to be financially responsible for a child...by not paying child support...by terminating his rights legally....and so can a woman. There's also free will--a person can simply refuse to be financially responsible for a child, whether they are a mother or a father.

[manni28]

Then I guess FOR THE MOST part, a woman can choose not to have genetic material deposited and thats where her reproductive choices should end as well?
we as women can choose to terminate a pregnancy, a man can't...Therefore men do NOT have the same reproductive rights. A woman can choose not to have to have to be financially responsible for a child a man can not. That is NOT equal.Edited to add that it is hard for me to argue this being that I am so darn pro life.( Speaking about reproductive rights etc...) And I am ALL for parental responsibility. Dead beat parents really hack me off. I am just saying that I honestly understand why men might feel this way.

IMHO, a woman has the first and final say on her reproductive activity. Let's say for example, a couple has been dating for a long time( committed/monogamist relationship) and the woman wants to get married, but the bfriend doesn’t. She say she's on the pill and stops taking them-and gets pregnant. Do you think that he should be obligated to pay child support, even though she thought that being pregnant he WOULD marry her;did she deceive him? Or a man thinks that his wife is faithful and later finds out that the child she bore is NOT his-is he also obligated to pay, even though the mother KNOWS who the father is?


All of these examples I have read about and to be honest, as a woman, I think its the lowest kind of womanhood,IMHO-using your body to force someone to marry you or deceiving your partner about the child's origins.



I think that as women we all have choices.

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by AdrienneG

This may sound harsh but we are responsible for who we chose to have sex with, whether we are male or female.

Chosing to sleep with someone and chosing not to use contraceptive is also chosing to accept the risks of pregnancy, be you male or female.

Just because a man places his genetic material into a woman doesnt mean one is responsible and the other isn't. Hes responsble for what he does with his own body as she is for hers.

If he was hard core against fatherhood, he could get a vasectomy or use a condom or wear two of them during sex with a woman regardless of if she says she is on the Pill or doesn't.

Actually a man can chose not to be financially responsible for a child...by not paying child support...by terminating his rights legally....and so can a woman. There's also free will--a person can simply refuse to be financially responsible for a child, whether they are a mother or a father.

I could't agree more...if a man wants a sure proof way of not consieving a child then it is up to him to take steps to prevent...his reproductive rights....or don't have sex.

The whole point of sex ...surprise, surpise is producing children..if you don't want them then don't do it.

If you feel you have to do it then you run the risk of creating a human being...you are responsable. I am sorry about the decietful women in the world but your only protection from that is don't have sex with them..unless you understand ththe minute chance of making a son or daughter...as a man you don't carry it..you don't get to make the choice of what happens to the womens body...after baby is born there is more of a leval playing fieldits just the way it is..

[enchanted]

Yeah, women have choices-- you really think they are on par, or BETTER than the choices that men have? Honestly? When it comes to childbearing and rearing, women are often stuck between one hard choice and another. Should I leave my husband because I am unhappy, or stay together for the sake of the kids? Should I stay home from work today with a sick child and risk my job, or go anyway? Should I continue this pregnancy, or have an abortion?

Yes, our choices are all so appealing.

Don't even get me started on the lies men tell-- "Oh baby I'll always be there for you... I'll be there for our baby-- oh wait, I'm going to leave the country" or "Yeah I'll sign the adoption papers-- oh wait, the baby's here, my mom doesn't want me to anymore, sorry, no can do!" The lying, scheming, low down dealing is definitely something pulled by both sexes...

The question here is who should the LAW cater to-- the parents, or the child? Who is most in need of legal protection-- a child, or a grown man who doesn't want responsibility?

[manni28]

The question here is who should the LAW cater to-- the parents, or the child? Who is most in need of legal protection-- a child, or a grown man who doesn't want responsibility?

Enchanted:

For me, it's not who's in need of legal protection, its about choices a woman makes;if you are with a man and he TELLS you "I'm not ready to be a daddy" .Then it's the responsiblity of both parties. But,(IMO) more so on the woman, why? Beacause she was told that there will be NO support or marriage. If you look at it, why would anyone want to put themselves in a position where there would be no support and I'm not just talking financially either?

[Gs_Mom]

Originally Posted by mimc

If a man doesn't want those responsibilities, he doesn't have any options . . .

No options ? Guess he could keep his zipper up!

[jvc6477]

[quote=AMom2Two]I believe this is just another excuse for men wanting to get out of their financial responsibilities.


.

Both have a 50/50 responsibility! Both have a responsibility to protect THEMSELVES!

If a man has a 50% say in what happens in their child's life then why do men have to go to court to assert their rights but a woman's rights are already in place and recognized by the legal system?

If a woman is given total control of the decision to abort,place or parent then the man is forced to pay where did the 50/50 thing come into play.


If a woman knows she won't always get childsupport then wouldn't it force her to be more responsible in her decision making process?

If a woman decides that she can do a better job of raising her children on her own then let her. But that should mean financially as well. Maybe then people would be less willing to resolve problems with divorce.

[enchanted]

Originally Posted by manni28

Enchanted:

For me, it's not who's in need of legal protection, its about choices a woman makes;if you are with a man and he TELLS you "I'm not ready to be a daddy" .Then it's the responsiblity of both parties. But,(IMO) more so on the woman, why? Beacause she was told that there will be NO support or marriage. If you look at it, why would anyone want to put themselves in a position where there would be no support and I'm not just talking financially either?

But once reproduction has happened, it has happened. What's to stop a man from saying "I told her I didn't want this" if they never even discussed it? Why are women alone being held here for the resultant child-- when it takes two to tango?

Yes, she can always "get an abortion"-- or theoretically anyway. Not if she's under 18 without parental permission in some states, and not at all in some states-- not even taking into account that she has days she can take off work or school for appointments, and the money to finance it before it's too late. Some women simply can't have an abortion, and some simply don't want to. And adoption is not an easy decision-- it's not as simple as "I can't do this, so I'll just place for adoption"-- here at this forum, we should all KNOW that it's not easy by any means. And often not necessary. Often a woman CAN do it on her own, and do it responsibly. We all need help with childrearing at times, and that alone does not make you a bad or less worthy parent in any way. Lack of help should NOT be a reason for adoption in my opinion, nor should finances. That isn't to say that it is not a valid reason; just that no one, in a developed nation as we claim to be, should feel forced to give up their baby, their flesh and blood child that they've given birth to, simply because they are not the wealthiest or have no support. Those things can be gotten, those things can be supplied; that situation can be temporary. Adoption is FOREVER. No one needs to spend a lifetime with a huge regret. Given a choice between that, and a little annoyance of one guy having to sign a check each month to support his CHILD, I'll take the second any day of the week. If we are going by suffering, if we are going by fairness, then the second is FAR less traumatic and life changing than either custodial parenting or adoption.

It would be nice if this was a perfect world, where men and women were 50/50. It sure isn't now. Friend of mine has a son who has never even seen his father... she was fourteen when she gave birth to him, daddy was 22 with another child. Where are the law teams swooping in to protect her rights, her child's? Noticably silent.

Is it unfair that men are paying child support for children they don't want? I think it's more unfair for children to not be wanted... to not be born to parents willing and able to step up to the plate, financially and emotionally, to raise them well and happily. People are quick to judge the mother... she should be "more responsible" than to bring a child into the world that the father didn't want. Did she, to borrow a line, climb on top of herself and get pregnant? Is it HER fault that the father does not want the responsibility? Is it then, HER responsibility alone? Can women just sign a sheet of paper and *poof* have no more responsibility when an unintended pregnancy occurs? NO! So why should men?

People act like women have no consequences, like they are the LEAST affected by an unintended, maybe unwanted pregnancy. That men bear an unfair burden here. I'm sorry but I still don't see it, when I look around! It seems to me that it's my girlfriends scrounging up their money, organizing rides with best friends (not boyfriends) and calling up the clinic, and climbing onto that table and gritting their teeth and wishing they could just make everything around them disappear. It's my girlfriends laboring away in a hospital with nobody to hold their hand, bringing a child into the world into an uncertain future. It's my girlfriends who struggle day to day to support their children, working odd jobs to try to make ends meet. I'm sorry but there is a tone in this thread CONDEMNING THEM, as they struggle-- that they should just have made better decisions. But a stronger group of women I do not know. I have great admiration for everything that they do. They may not have wanted this, they may not have planned this, but day after day, they step up to the plate, they do what they have to do for themselves and their children to get by. And the men? The fathers of these babies, who at one time promised them the world? They fade into the background, quite content with never knowing their children, how they are faring.

I am talking here, as we all are, to children who are born to unmarried parents. I've noticed that more often, though not always, fathers feel more of an obligation to child support then. It seems to me that a lot of men already view their children as expendable; I don't want it, so let me sign a piece of paper and make it go away. Brilliant! Except this is a living, breathing person that you helped create, who is going to be an adult someday and deserves the rights of other people. He was created by two parents, and he deserves two parents, period.

Life doesn't always go as we plan. Let the men stand up and be MEN, own up to their responsibilities and at least send that check every month. It really is the absolute LEAST they can do.

[manni28]

Is it unfair that men are paying child support for children they don't want? I think it's more unfair for children to not be wanted... to not be born to parents willing and able to step up to the plate, financially and emotionally, to raise them well and happily. People are quick to judge the mother... she should be "more responsible" than to bring a child into the world that the father didn't want. Did she, to borrow a line, climb on top of herself and get pregnant?

Enchanted, you have some very valid points but I have to agree to disagree. Your quote, to me, shows that a woman does have choices. Again, if you know that a man has told you (and men WILL tell you) "I'm not ready to get married or be a father-BELIEVE IT! It's up to both to be responsible and more so on the woman (IMHO).

Is it HER fault that the father does not want the responsibility? Is it then, HER responsibility alone? Can women just sign a sheet of paper and *poof* have no more responsibility when an unintended pregnancy occurs? NO! So why should men?

This, I believe is not true-this is why there is adoption. A woman CAN sign a sheet of paper and” proof" have no more responsibility when an unintended pregnancy occurs

I look around! It seems to me that it's my girlfriends scrounging up their money, organizing rides with best friends (not boyfriends) and calling up the clinic, and climbing onto that table and gritting their teeth and wishing they could just make everything around them disappear. It's my girlfriends laboring away in a hospital with nobody to hold their hand, bringing a child into the world into an uncertain future. It's my girlfriends who struggle day to day to support their children, working odd jobs to try to make ends meet. I'm sorry but there is a tone in this thread CONDEMNING THEM, as they struggle-- that they should just have made better decisions. But a stronger group of women I do not know. I have great admiration for everything that they do. They may not have wanted this, they may not have planned this, but day after day, they step up to the plate, they do what they have to do for themselves and their children to get by.

I don't think its condemnation; it's about choices and consequences. Also, most women who are struggling, CAN'T they go to court and get the father's paycheck garnished? I know in New York( and I'm quite sure the whole nation) once the father has been identified, support is automatically taken from his paycheck

I am talking here, as we all are, to children who are born to unmarried parents. I've noticed that more often, though not always, fathers feel more of an obligation to child support then. It seems to me that a lot of men already view their children as expendable; I don't want it, so let me sign a piece of paper and make it go away. Brilliant! Except this is a living, breathing person that you helped create, who is going to be an adult someday and deserves the rights of other people. He was created by two parents, and he deserves two parents, period.

Not to sound harsh,but why would you put yourself into a situation where there is no support and the child suffers? You can't force anyone to do anything if they don’t want to.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Parents. Please do not instill this attitude into your children.

Teach your boys to be men, not push off his responsibilities because he "said" he didnt want them.

Teach your girls to respect themselves. And if the situation occurs... please do not belittle them into thinking it is ONLY their fault...

This whole argument IMO is just ridiculous. Arguing that men should just be able to say.. hmmm.. "I told you I didnt want a baby.... sucks to be you."



Perhaps women should all go back to being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, too. Cower ladies.... whatever the MAN says is how it is.