[spaypets]

Ahimsa, beautifully said. FWIW, my grandfather was an atheist and remained one even as he lay dying. He was also the most morally upright person I ever knew.

[echaos]

Originally Posted by spaypets

Ahimsa--I agree with Lisa, that the situation is tougher if the toys live at your MIL's house. Then, truthfully, I kind of think you don't have a right to really say anything because it's her turf. I think though, you are within your rights to bring more acceptable toys and books and discourage the playing with the prostletizing stuff.

I have to disagree with this... It might be her turf, but it's your kids.

If MIL was giving a 10 month old pepsi in his bottle..... or an 18 month old peanutst to eat..... or letting 3 year old watch horror movies....or anything else that you didn't agree with.... I think we would all shout out ways to stop her, pithy comments to make, how to keep her from seeing the kids alone etc....

Just because it's religion and not potential life threatening or bad for the child's health, doesn't mean that MIL has any more right to do it at her home.

She is entitled to her opinion..... just like the parents who do give babies pop are entitled to theirs..... they just can do it to other people's kids.

[Lexmom]

Ahimsa...bravo!!!!

Back to your original question...the issue is about respecting your parenting choices...not religion. It just happens that the attack from your in-laws is in regard to religion. My girlfriend is going through the same thing except she is christian and so is her mother, yet her mother is still pushing her "version" of christianity on her grandchild. She's even gone so far as to say she's babysitting her grandchild, then taking her to bible school instead. This is underhanded, sneaky, and disrespectful of my friend's parenting...all in the guise of denominational disagreement.

She has chosen not to confront her mother because it causes grief and strain between them and is stressful for her own daughter. Instead, she let's her mother think she's getting away with this, then when her daughter is back home and asks questions, she answers them as she believes yet is respectful of her mother's beliefs. The discussion starts something like, "Some people believe xxx, I believe yyy, and when you feel you're ready, you'll be able to choose how you wish to believe or not."

[Cobb]

Well said Ahimsa!

We've had this same conflict with the in-laws. We tried to deal with it gently until dh picked Anna up once when she was 18 mons. old and found her strapped into a boaster with a 16oz. Diet Coke in one hand and a lollipop in the other watching a Disney movie!!!! She KNEW no soda, no sugar, no TV... Dh was so angry he picked her up and left without even commenting.. She was also only in a diaper btw, which surprised him since she LOVED being dressed... maybe MIL was concerned about her spilling the soda.

Here's what we did. First, without saying anything, Anna was not allowed to be at their house unless we were present. When asked we just said, sorry we can't make it that day. Eventually, they caught on and realized that they would have to respect our rules. I don't control what they do, but I do control what my daughter is exposed to.

But, that really doesn't help you since your MIL is doing this stuff in your presence. This is where being your children's interpreter comes in. Just as you would add in an aside to explain a word that your child doesn't understand when you know she is following a conversation, you begin using "asides" to deal with this issue. When your dd brings you a book about Jesus, explain to her that the book isn't appropriate for her... DON'T look at your MIL to see her response, this is between you and your dd. You will be providing your dd with the consistent message that is so important to you, showing her that you support every rule no matter where you happen to be (this is great for behaviors... once a child knows their parents won't adjust their response just because someone may be watching, difficult behaviors when visiting others go way down!!!) and sending your MIL the message that you will not stand aside and be disrespected. I personally believe there is nothing you can say that will change your MIL's behavior without making it into a huge deal, but if you change your response, most likely she will change because she perfers not to look foolish. Ultimately though, whether she changes or not is beyond your power and shouldn't be your issue to fix. Do what you need to for yourself and your daughter and if nothing else some of the stress it causes you will go away.

By the time Anna was three she was very clear that we made the rules and decisions for her and that when she was older she would get to do that for herself. People would ask her if she needed to do something and she would say she needed to ask her 'dolts' . In my presence someone told her once that "we don't care what your mother thinks..." when they KNEW they were doing something I didn't approve of. I ignored the commenter, looked at Anna and told her of course you care what mommy thinks, we're connected. She came over to give me a hug and I removed her from the situation. Things came to head with the vegetarian issue with my parents. My mom finally stated that she just didn't understand WHY we decided not to eat meat. I told her that I've already explained it as best I could, that I didn't need her to "understand" it, but I did need her to respect it! My dad went as far as to say that if Anna asked him for chicken or something that he would give it to her and I calmly replied that she wouldn't be able to eat with you out of my presence. They were irked, but they have never given Anna meat and for a couple years there called to ask me if certain foods were okay.

The problem was revisited a bit when we had my cousins in our care. Having had multiple moves in the foster system and being survivors, they were pretty good manipulators and saw Grandma and Grandpa as an easy target. I had to correct and contridict my dad at the dinner table once when he told me to let them have an extra dessert when I had already told them no and he was pretty angry. The girls got it though, that my decisions aren't up for discussion and I would do what was best for them whether or not the people in our presence agreed.

Okay, this is gotten a little long... take what is helpful, discard the rest. I left you a comment in your reps... feel free to PM me if you want to talk about it!

Take care,
Cobb

[spaypets]

Andy, IMHO, the difference is that while Ahimsa can discourage (or prevent) her children from playing with the toys at grandma's, she can't say to grandma "Get rid of the toys." There may be other grandchildren that visit who DO play with those toys.

It's like when my dd was a toddler, and we were visiting my mother. If she looked too interested in something fragile, I would move it higher, but I would never say to my mother "Move all your breakables."

What Ahimsa can do is not bring her kids to G'ma's house if G'ma is deliberately undermining the parents.

[echaos]

Hey Spay,

I think we are on the same page with this... I wasn't thinking of getting rid of the toys, but just not allowing her kids to play with them.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Cobb..

As always, your advice is Awesome. I still (my daughter is 8) use the phrase... "That is not appropriate behavior" and it works fairly well. Many times now though Ill add "for an 8 year old" at the end. So sometimes when she comes back to me about something.. she will say that isnt appropriate right now so maybe when I am 13.. I just laugh.

I used to have to fight my mom deliberately doing things behind my back when I used to associate with her... but I kind of instilled "loyalty" into Aurora... the dessert thing has been an issue in the past... and I just stared at her and she wouldnt TOUCH it until after she ate. lol.

I really dont know what I would do if a FAMILY member tried the religion thing. I dont really have a problem contradicting people in the way you proposed... talk directly to her and ignore the other person's response. I know that I have an uncle who for some reason hates Jewish people... but is Christian... so if that came up I would have to remind her that Jesus was jewish so he obviously isnt thinking clearly...

Ahimsa-- I think you have some great advice here.. AND it sounds like you are pretty level headed about it all... let us know how you handle it next time!!!!

[ahimsa]

Dianna, sugarbabysmommy, Lexie, spaypets, numbr1dbcksfan - Thank you so much for your support! I really appreciate it!

redhedded - Thank you for your post. That's funny that you brought up "The Third Chimpanzee". I bought it for my husband for our anniversary this summer. He LOVED it and I'm hoping to read it soon! Jared Diamond is BRILLIANT!!!

echaos - you totally have a point. I do step in at their house to say, no chocolate, no soda, no second helping of dessert, etc. I guess I know that this will be much more explosive than those issues. It is so touchy that I do wish my husband would broach it. He worries because we recently explained attachment disorder to them and explained all the things that they can no longer do for our children. This was upsetting to them and I think he worries that it is too soon to tackle religion too. DH is coming around through. There was a time where he said that if MIL wanted to baptise the kids he wouldn't care because he doesn't put any stock in it. I recently asked him if he still felt that way and he said "hell no!" I think his plan is to ignore it now since the kids have no idea about religion and wait until it is a bigger issue.

Lexmom - I'm sorry your girlfriend is going through this. I know it is tough. We have used a similar approach with animals rights issues. We see people fishing and discuss it after. We saw a commercial for a Ringling Bros. circus and discussed it. We can't stop these things but we can discuss their implications on a level the kids understand. This is probably the route we'll be going for a while. We did have this conversation about angels recently because it came up at school.

Cobb - WOW! I would have FREAKED out to see that! It is SO frustrating, isn't it??? I agree with you about saying something is wrong in her presence. We have done this. The cool thing is that my daughter is TOTALLY in the phase of liking what I like. I know her favorite color is pink, but when asked on a recent project at school what her favorite color was, she said "My favorite color is blue because my mom's favorite color is blue. She likes blue and so do I." There are times someone asks her if she likes something and she first asks me if I like it. Although I want her to be confident in her own choices, I am also using this phase as a time to explain why I don't like certain things. If I professed not to like a book or toy at MILs house, she would probably follow suit. I'll have to try that next time!

Thanks everyone! numbr1dbcksfan is right...you have all given me great advice. This is why I love these boards! I feel so much better equipped to deal with my MIL in the future!

[heartfilledmom]

First, I have to ask for an apology to those simply seeking this thread in regards to MIL’s or significant others impeding their beliefs on your child.



I answered hastily. However, when a so-called adoption forum is allowed to inadvertently intertwine its conversations into specific belief systems; influencing the likes of others; I have a moral obligation to defend my truths, just as Ahimsa felt required and was allowed to express her views in previous posts.



When I read on an adoption forum someone boldly claiming to be a “Militant Agnostic” I got a little concerned. Especially when they consistently project their belief systems into repeated threads.



“atheism actually isn't a religion. An atheist is….”



“Now, we feel very strongly about values”



“Actually, we were prepared to lie, if we had to”



“I'm an educated person who doesn't need to be "taught"



“Don't even get me started on the sewn cloth book that shows all these different cultures all getting along. It talks about how we should all love and respect each other's differences.”



I agree that, “A little tolerance for the lives of others needs to be practiced.” But doesn’t that go both ways???



Consequently, the promotion of atheism on this board is not my only concern. Being a teacher, children are my primary and most vital purpose. And I find over and over that confidence in ones belief system does not necessitate or require the exclusion of another.



Although my children are taught primarily to live by faith, not by sight, I believe it is essential to purposefully expose, discuss and debate the pro’s and con’s of all religions / diverse ideas to my children. Taking them to remote parts of the world and immerging them in different cultures AND religions has helped greatly, in addition to exposing them to diverse information, materials and people in our home as well. Furthermore, from what I recall, each state agency supports and promotes this idea also. Even science itself requires all data to be collected before accurately evaluating any theory. Why should children not have these same rights? When this fails to happen, it seems to me that children simply mindlessly model their parents values; as Darwin did when he patterned the ideas of the dominant males in his family line…instead of actively thinking for themselves.



I also have to agree with whoever said- this board is not about religion. From what I understood, it is about loving our children and giving them the best that we can. It is about adoption, the struggles, the triumphs and the hope that is in each child. It is about working for the good of our children, gaining insight, grasping understanding and moving each other toward the growth / health of our children. I 100% agree, forcing something upon your child is likely to cause resistence, not acceptance. One thing that I think we can all agree on is that we love our children and desire to create intelligent, discerning and peaceful individuals that will live and work with the collective diversity of our society? Knowing that diversity is paramount!!



Ahimsa – You asked me for books that give concrete evidence for Creationism… Look up any book by Dr. Richard Lumsdon, Dr. Walt Brown, Dr. Raymond V. Damadian or Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith, one of the few people with triple doctorates in America. All are scientist and all give evidence promoting creationism. Another book by Don Richardson called, “Eternity in their Hearts” might be of interest to you. It entails ancient and remote civilizations from around the world and their direct coorelation between Christianity and Folk Religions. Religion isn’t something to “satisfy the empty” as you have said before. It is a deep rooted, concrete and sustaining foundation that has survived amongst diverse cultures, undeveloped societies and remote groups of unrelated peoples over generations and generations. Hopefully, our impact on our children will also be as fundamental and impacting.



To those in question: I did not state that women become infertile because they have sinned. I simply point out that woman who cannot keep their children have the blessing of pregnancy to fulfill the gift of motherhood to the one’s who can’t. That was God’s perfect and glorious plan…..not chance.



If we don’t stand for something….we will fall for anything.

[BlueMommy]

Why is it so wrong to have faith in God? He helped me and my family through the ups and downs of adoption, several failed matches and one even after a four month placement. He also brought us to our agency, our birthmom and our son. When it was right, He made it work without a hitch.

Is it just trendy to be an atheist? I am not sure what the hook is? I am not being judgmental or trying to convince anyone not to feel as they wish, but why the bashing of those with deep faith in God?

Can't we all just be united in adoption without the incendiary posts? It really does not seem to be very productive or kind for that matter.

[MrsSmith]

Folks, Ahimsa started this thread with a SPECIFIC question regarding a SPECIFIC issue. That issue did have to do with religion. Many posters responded with terrific suggestions, wisdom and advice concerning Ahimsa's specific issue, as was noted by the OP.

This thread is NOT about atheism vs. Christianity, creationism vs. evolution, or I'm right - you're wrong.

Please keep responses to this thread specific to the issue at hand, or this thread will be closed.

Thank you.
MrsSmith, Forums Moderator

[2Bulgarianbeauties]

Boy, this thread has really helped me. I have skimmed most of them, and will try to go back and spend time on them all. I have some close relatives that are strong PETA members. It does not come up all the time, but I have had to have the conversations in the car with DD that while yes, we like animals, they do not have the same value as a human life. And yes we like trees, but humans are more valuable. So, there have been a lot of good suggestions that I can use. Thanks.

Kay

[79nic]

ahimsa,

Ahhhhhh. We have similar issues. Only with me, the religion part comes from MY parents (both Christians; dh and I are something like Buddhist-ish agnostics).

My dad actually asked me if it would be ok if he brought Elise to church sometimes. Eek. I told him we'd have to talk about it, and eventually we said we thought that ONCE in a great while, and ONLY if Elise WANTED to go, we'd be ok with it.... but that that wasn't a definite answer, we'd need to discuss it more when the time came. (Thank goodness, because the more I think about it, the less I want her going to a traditional Christian church--especially without me or Matt around to intervene if necessary.)

The advice you've gotten here is so good.... It really has inspired me to be a little more firm with my parents and have a discussion with them on what IS and is NOT acceptable....

And, not to hijack your thread, but maybe you or someone can help... this is similar, but a bit different.... my FIL is racially prejudiced, and he's said some things already in front of Elise (she is a bio child and CC, so it's not directed towards her--I just DON'T WANT that kind of racism modeled in front of her). Have you run into anything like this? Anyone? Is it appropriate to ask family members to not make comments like that around your children???? It's not just race... he can be judgmental about so many things.... The other night we were at dinner, and he mixed in with his racist comments some negative comments about mothers on Welfare with multiple kids... he was talking about an employee, and said, "She has two kids to two different guys (and isn't married." I looked him straight in the eyes and said, "I have two kids to different guys." His response, "Well, that's different..." (I guess cuz dh and I are married? Or because we're not on Welfare? Or we're not --gasp-- Puerto Rican? Who knows...). All I could think was, "What the heck???? My daughter--your GRANDDAUGHTER--is sitting right here, and she has a sister who lives in a different home, who she will one day know is MY bio daughter but NOT her daddy's bio daughter--and how would she feel if she heard that comment and understood it? Would she feel like her grandpa was making a negative comment about OUR family? About her sister? About her mom (me)?" Ugh.

So... help? Do your inlaws or any other family members ever just make comments--not preaching--just comments--that you'd prefer your kids not hear/have modeled for them? And if so--what do you do?

I know I can't keep Elise in a bubble forever... my issue is more that her grandpa is of course someone she looks up to, and I'm worried about the effects of an adult that close to her modeling that behavior/speech to her.

Sigh.

/highjack

[ginadc]

Ahimsa, just wanted to add my voice of support for you in your situation and the difficulty you're facing. As certain posts have made clear, it can be difficult to be an atheist or agnostic in this exceedingly Christian country...and it becomes even more so when you're trying to raise a child.

For us it'll be a little more at arms length, as my in-laws are not particularly religious (she said so long to the Catholic church after a nasty experience following her divorce from my DH's father, who abandoned her), and my parents, who are much more so, live half a continent away. So we won't have to deal with the religious toys thing, or with grandparents pressuring us to take a child/children to church with them on Sunday. But we're definitely getting heavy baptism pressure--my mom even made a "joke" about "Well, just look the other way and I'll take care of it." Yoicks! We've had to be very firm about it; we're quite clear on how we feel, but that doesn't make it easy to say no to your (elderly) parents on something they feel so strongly about. But we feel equally strongly the other way, so we're united in sticking to our guns.

I don't have much specific advice about your particular situation--you've already gotten some good input from others. But I wanted to let you know you're not alone in having to confront it!

[ahimsa]

I received a PM from the moderator asking if she could close this thread, to which I agreed. I had a legitimate concern within my family and the majority of you gave me excellent advice for which I am very grateful. I do not wish for this thread to become a series of rants and raves about religion. That was never my intent. So thank you to the wonderful people who supported me and gave me advice! You're awesome!

Mrs. Smith - I am very sorry that this thread got so far off track. Thank you for the PM. You were very sweet and supportive.

Peace!