[sugarbabysmommy]

Originally Posted by spaypets

Ahimsa--I agree with Lisa, that the situation is tougher if the toys live at your MIL's house. Then, truthfully, I kind of think you don't have a right to really say anything because it's her turf. I think though, you are within your rights to bring more acceptable toys and books and discourage the playing with the prostletizing stuff.

It is harder with the toys at her house, and harder still if your child goes over to visit without you. But I don't know, does that mean that I don't have right to say my child's interaction should be limited/eliminated, or that they should refrain from preacing to my kid? I have the right to know what video will be watched at a birthday party- and to pick my kid up early if I don't approve, I have the right to tell my MIL she can or can't give babe certian foods. I don't stop making choices for my kid just because they are on grandma's turf. I can't stop grandma from buying something, but I should be able to say my kid won't play with it.

Edited to add: no big deal if theirs a Noah's Ark toy or something, as far as a kid is concerned its a boat with animals... but it becomes a big deal if the play with the toy is routinely directed by the in-laws with biblical references, then they are prostletizing directly to my child.

I gotta' say, my in-laws did something really great along these lines latey. There is a toy that my FIL nicknamed the Bush Truck because of the design on it, sort of a Texas sherrif truck. So here's my kid walking around talking about the Bush truck, I just about dropped over- let's just say hubby and I are not Bush supporters. I casually mentioned that hubby aint' gonna' like this, and maybe we should rename the truck. They chuckled, like oh what's the big deal. I know this may seem trivial to some reading this. Well, I told hubby, he couldn't believe it, and the next time we were over at his folk's house he asked that they no longer say it. They agreed, I think they had no idea just how much it mattered to us that our two year old not be taught to say this nickname. (Note, not trying to get into a political arguement, just using an example of something that we feel as strongly about as other's do their religious beliefs) They don't feel the same as we do about religion or politics even, but do support us in how we choose to raise our child. Having grown up with grandparents who did their best to undermine my own parents, this is pretty great. (Even if my MIL does think she's number two mommy most of the time in other arenas, she does try to do this.)

Ahimsa, out of curiousity, how many toys and books are we talking about? If it's just a few, like three, I'd let it go, shove them to the bottom of the toy box. If it's many more, then I'd have a conversation.

Hum, christmas should be interesting this year, my in-laws put out nativity scenes and babe just loves pretend play with little things. I've no doubt babe will ask what's this, I wonder what my MIl's answer will be?

[ahimsa]

T&T - I totally understand that prostelitizing is a tenet of christianity. As a result, I have many friends that are christians, but none that do this because I wouldn't be able to stand it. I do unfortunately have family that do this. My MIL is now one of them, unfortunately. Her views are currently a bit out of wack. She was actually very excited that we were adopting out of foster care. Not because we were helping two kids or building a family, but because she hoped that in god's eyes, doing this "good deed" would make up for our lack of religious belief. I guess she hopes it is our "get-into-heaven-free" card. Kind of unfortunate.

SadieAnn - you're right...even if my MIL wasn't pushing religion, she'd be pushing something else. Actually, she's pushing a lot of stuff. The list of things that anger her now are as follows: we live to far away, we don't attend EVERY family function, I don't sew, we don't eat meat, we drink, we go to clubs/concerts, we are too social, I don't dress my age, I can't "get over" the fact that my kids are adopted or black, I like gourmet cooking and not the more homestyle cuisine that she likes, I don't control my husband, we don't go to church, we like reggae music, I let my husband gain weight, I let him have alcohol, I drove him away from god and meat...the list goes ON and ON! As you can see, religion is just one of many issues in this situation, however it is being the most pushed right now! Aaagghhhh!

LisaCA - I agree with you, however, my husband and I have always agreed to deal with our own families on issues like this. He doesn't want to deal with this. I don't want to be some "Debra Barone" wife that is always so opinionated toward the in-laws. The religious toys seem to be multiplying between trips and I'm at a loss. I would LOVE to never have them go to their house, but she is already complaining that she "never sees the kids." Apparently it is our fault for having the gaul to move a whole 45 minutes away from the rest of the family. It's so complicated!

Lexie - my husband falls under the category of fundamentalist atheist. I've never heard that term before! I'm slightly lower key about it. I did see a bumper sticker that I want to get. It says "Militant Agnostic: I don't know and neither do you." That pretty much sums up how I feel! LOL! I too am a scientist and know many others who are atheists as well. As guess it is difficult to believe in a higher power in the face of scientific evidence of evolution. By the way, what's children's book on buddhism do you have??? It sounds great! It is the only religion I would ever really be able to get on board with. It fits with a lot of how I view the world and doesn't focus on the worship of a higher power. I understand what you are saying about church being a part of black culture. That does concern me because our children are black. There aren't too many black atheists in America. However, I can't pretend to believe something I don't just for that. Maybe I would let them attend a Southern Baptist church sometime for the cultural experience, but I wouldn't pretend that any of what is being said about religion is true. It is difficult.

Spaypets - I agree with you a hundred percent. Though I know many christians see "spreading the word" as a positive and uplifting thing, it offends me as well. I don't like it. I feel like it is undermining my intelligence and my ability to think for myself. I'm an educated person who doesn't need to be "taught" about christiaity. Actually, I was raised as a christian, so I know all I need to know!

numbr1dbcksfan - I'm not sure where I stand on whether or not to expose them to religion. Although I do agree that religion is a part of culture and exposure to other cultures is very important, I don't think I want to expose them to the ideology of relgion as being anything other than made up by humans. Our kids have already have great exposure to Rastafarianism. We love reggae and have a deep passion for Jamaican culture and politics. I agree with the majority of what Rastafarians stand for, but I don't believe there is a god. We have joked about starting our own sect of "Secular Rastafarians"! LOL! So, it would be hard to teach culture without religion, but I will always explain the belief in a higher power as being something that isn't true and is just something made up to help people feel better and deal with their own mortality.

sugarbabysmommy - Luckily, as of now, the kids don't go to their house without us. We have only had the grandparents keep our kids in our house. We have even stopped doing that in light of some attachment issues that we are dealing with. For example, this weekend is my cousin's wedding. I will be going alone, without my husband, for the first time in 11 years. Now, my inlaws live 10 minutes from the wedding, but I don't want the kids there without us. They aren't very competent in their older age. Last time they babysat they gave each of our kids an adult size cheeseburger, adult size fries and an adult size drink. Since our kids have food issues (which MIL has been told millions of times) they ate everything and cried, sick to their stomach for hours after. I know they raised their own kids, but something has changed and their common sense and judgement are out the window. It will be a LONG TIME before my babies will be just dropped off in that house without me! As far as number of toys, there are six that we know of. This is in a small box of toys. Don't even get me started on the sewn cloth book that shows all these different cultures all getting along. It talks about how we should all love and respect each other's differences. That would be fine if the last page didn't show a white cowgirl and a MAMMIE holding hands!!! Yes, the only black face in the pseudo-multicultural book is of a MAMMIE! This is how CLUELESS she is! It sucks!!!

[sugarbabysmommy]

Originally Posted by ahimsa

The list of things that anger her now are as follows: we live to far away, we don't attend EVERY family function, I don't sew, we don't eat meat, we drink, we go to clubs/concerts, we are too social, I don't dress my age, I can't "get over" the fact that my kids are adopted or black, I like gourmet cooking and not the more homestyle cuisine that she likes, I don't control my husband, we don't go to church, we like reggae music, I let my husband gain weight, I let him have alcohol, I drove him away from god and meat...the list goes ON and ON!

Wanna' be my neighbor

It's clear there's a whole lot going on, I can relate. Why won't hubby step up and say knock it off? I'm guessing you do more of the interacting with your in-laws when it comes to your kids? That's how it is around here and my hubby is able to shrug off most of what bugs me.


Ugh, I hate that line about never seeing the kid, a week can go by and my MIL will hang all over babe repeating, "oh it's been so long." Maybe your MIL and my MIL went to the same grandma school, the one that drills a mantra into their heads, "oh that's ok, grandma's are allowed to do that." By who??? Some hallmark book about grandmahood???

Boy, I feel for you. Start bringing over toys to leave at their house, along with books. I've got to ask, where did she even find the cloth book you describe?

I know it could be worse, we could be dealing with grandparents who want nothing to do with our kids. I can hear you thinking that might not be so bad

[Hopp]

Originally Posted by T&T

I believe that parents should raise their children as they see fit. Your parents and your in-laws had that opportunity to raise their children now it is your turn.
-Tracey

Tracey, I think your words said it all. This is an issue about the In-Laws respeciting the parenting beliefs and styles of the parents.


I AM a minister, and I strongly disagree with the "in-your face" approach that some Christians take. To me that's where the Hypocrisy comes into play! Who are we to say one way to live is better than another?

ahimsa, gently remind your mother-n-law that the very definition of Christianity is "Christ Like." It isn't "Christ like" AT ALL for your in laws or ANYONE to judge you on any of the many things she seems to.

I would seriously ask your husband to sit them down and talk with them. If you are forced to do it, further problems may happen. These are his parents, and it would be best coming from him. He should also be aware of his word choice so the In-Laws don't get the impression that you put him "up to it." They should clearly get the point that HE feels strongly and is coming to them as one adult to another. This is very much a respect issue...they need to respect you both as adults, and now as parents.


I think that anyone who brings up their children with morals, values, and health life lessons are sure to be great parents. I commend you for your strong beliefs in how you live your life, and help your children to live theirs.

On another note...we teach the children in our church about lots of religions so that they can be informed! I know that we will do this with our own children as well. I have some great books, but have one that's a favorite. I'll get the name and post it in a minute.

Keep us posted on your outcome.

-Dianna

[NDN]

Originally Posted by ahimsa

...the list goes ON and ON! As you can see, religion is just one of many issues in this situation, however it is being the most pushed right now! Aaagghhhh!

Is it possible that this is about more than religion? Perhaps this is just the battle ground in a larger conflict for her. She doesn't approve of the way that your life (as a family) is, and apparently blames you. Is it possible that she knows how deeply you, like everyone, hold your beliefs so she is using this as a way to get at you?

I say this because this seems to go beyond the usual, teach the children about God issue. Since she isn't sending things with them, she obviously knows that you would not keep them. Given her objections to everything else, it seems a bit too calculated to be merely a grandmother trying to teach her grandchildren about faith.

You have every right to be concerned about this, because it's about more than religion. It's about her trying to undermine the life you are building for your family...perhaps because she thinks you are wrong...or perhaps just as a petty attempt to punish you...but whatever the reason, you have every right to try to stop it.

I agree that your dh needs to lay down the law on this one and I agree with Lisa that sometimes the only way to deal with it is in restricting access (at least for a time). Sometimes they learn and stop behaving like this...sometimes they don't....but you, as their mother, get to decide how they live and whether or not the expose them to this power struggle with MIL.

Hope it works out.

[LisaCA]

my inlaws blame me for everything too. I moved him 3000 miles from home, I "forbid" him from visiting them, etc, etc. Of course the truth is that he's a workaholic and can't take time off without going thru withdrawal-I'm all for him going to visit them. I've even encouraged him to use freq flyer miles-it keeps them from coming out here. They also I'm sure say I'm the one who advocated adoption, and now is keeping dd from them. The last part is actually true, dh went along with adoption (he thought it was a pretty cool idea, plus couldn't survive his wife's pregnancy-fear, panic, and the torture he'd suffer at my hands) and after the "joyous" visit this summer, I'm sure he's all for keeping dd from them.

the dynamic between dh and his parents is an interesting one. frightening to watch your dh call his mom "mommy" at age 44 . I think that you might want to revisit the "i'll handle my parents" thing in the light of kids. Maybe kids could be the one exception to the rule.

my guess (based on 20+ years of dealing with my inlaws) is that if your dh says something (and he should), you'll be blamed no matter what. It's hard to think that your little boy could possibly not be thrilled with everything you as a parent do . I can't wait to be like that .

i like the idea of bringing toys over and leaving them-quite brilliant sugarbabysmommy.

[Lexie]

Here is the children's book--

STORIES OF THE BUDDHA


The Buddha means the enlightened. The Sakya prince did not reject life entirely but returned to it, declaring the middle path or moderation. This collection of 24 stories of the Buddha from his birth to his attaining nirvana, is highly recommended for children of all ages.


By Anita Khanna
Illustrations: Tapas Guha
80 pps., four-colour
Size: 18x24 cm

[heartfilledmom]

I guess I am just completely amazed at the diversity in belief systems on this board. Without a doubt, this board represents the open-minded Americanisms that shouts to the world, nothing is absolute!!

I wonder if a dieing person would agree with you? I wonder if you knew you were dying, would you claim the non-existence of God? I wonder if the people stranded on the roofs in St. Louis felt life was random "chance"? Did they cry to a Creator for help nevertheless?

What about the woman giving birth to the child that is in your home? Did she think about how that child was formed in her body for nine months? Moreso, how did she gather that SHE; with all her imperfections; think that she could be randomly selected to be the giver of such a life. Surely, goodness and morality did not "earn" her the right to be a Mother. Education or personal growth...Nope, that wasn't her stepping stool to Motherhood? Why? Why does she give life, while other woman go barren?

But much more important that these things are....What keeps truths in darkness?? What hides religion or anything for that matter? Surely, honesty and openness cannot harm a belief system that is so solidly grounded!!!

Why is America desolving before our eyes? Why do other nations family lives prosper, crime rate stay the same, communities remain sustainable and we get attacked and verbally persecuted by most other nations?

Why can we just not believe what we want or not believe anything at all for that matter?

Is there not something greater, something in us all when we lie in bed at night searching for answers? How does nothing answer those questions for you? Do you feel loved, special, unique? Or can you honestly say that absolutely nothing seperates us from every other species?

Why do we have choice??? To choose, perhaps? And yes, NOT choosing IS Choosing!! Why do we have a conscious, that calls to us in the pit of our stomachs or the back of our minds, when we lead ourselves astray? Why do animals not have a choice of "right and wrong" or a conscious for that matter? Why do Apes still exists, if these species have already "evolved" into...us? Why did Darwin himself recount his OWN theory of evolution?

Lastly, how can that precious child before you be a circumstance or a happenstance or any kind of random "chance" for that matter. Look into the eyes of your child. They will tell you that there is more. Listen to their laugh, feel their hug, hold their hand. They will tell you there is more. There eyes will tell you, if you let them.

[Lexie]

OK- I thought this thread was about how to deal with religious differences--NOT about challenging religious or athiest beliefs.

[MrsSmith]

Please remember that these boards have members of all different religious viewpoints, and that we are not here to convince anyone that one viewpoint is RIGHT and another is WRONG. While we may not agree with someone else's view, posters must be respectful of other posters or threads can and will be closed.

Furthermore, personal attacks on other members are NOT allowed and can result in members being banned.

Thank you.
MrsSmith, Forums Moderator

[ahimsa]

OK...this is going to difficult. I really want to and need to respond to what heartfilledmom had to say. I want to respect the many people who post on these boards and have different religious beliefs. I don't want to offend anyone and hope not to.

The first thing I want to address is that this strand was never about which religion is right or wrong. The purpose was to explain the frustration in having another person disrepect my beliefs, or lack thereof, and push their own on my children. This is not a christian vs. atheist thing. If she were Hindu and I were Morman, I would feel the same way. If she were Seventh Day Adventist and I were Buddhist, I'd feel the same way. If she were a member of the Nation of Islam and I were Zorostrian, I would feel the same way. This post was never about which religions are right, it was about my right as a parent to choose how I want to raise my children. I'm sorry that this strand was either misconstrued or inadvertantly taken in the wrong direction.

Now, having said that, I cannot be publicly attacked without publically defending myself. Again, I will try hard not to attack heartfilledmom in any way. She has a right to her beliefs and I respect that.

As far as the statement that nothing is absolute, is this not true? As an atheist I can't say for sure that there is or is not a god. How do I know? I can say that based on the evidence I have seen, I seriously doubt it, but I could be wrong. I would be OK with being wrong. I would love to think that there is eternal life. I would love to think that when I die I will be reuinited with my father. I would love to think that my existence is not as fragile as it seems. But...I can't. Again...I could be wrong. But, so could anybody.

As far as a dying person agreeing with me, that really depends on the person. I think that if a person has a belief system, even if they have gotten away from it, it will strengthen when faced with death. However, I don't think that most atheists change their mind on their death bed. My dad was an atheist. When he was dying he didn't find religion. What he did was peacefully look back at his 45 years on Earth with no regrets. As an atheist, he didn't imagine there would be life after death. Therefore, he lived his life to the fullest. Although his life was cut short, he was at peace with the fact that he had lived his life the way he wanted and accepted that it was coming to an end.

As far as people stranded on their rooves, I'm sure the majority prayed because the majority of the people in our country are religious (about 90%). That's no surprise.

Now heartfilledmom did get very personal by applying this to the birthmother of my children. I don't feel that she was selected to give birth to our kids. She got pregnant. Many people do. I know it must be excruciating to women who are dealing with infertility to see someone who can get pregnant so easily. I didn't appreciate the implication that she has imperfections. Don't we all??? Is it assumed that because she is a birthmother she has more imperfections, or was it just that her imperfections were found out by the County of Los Angeles as opposed to so many people's imperfections that remain well hidden. As far as why she got pregnant when other women haven't, that just biology. Who we are is coded in our genes that are passed down from our parents. Fertility may have run in her family but doesn't in other families. There are also environmental and lifestyle factors that affect fertility. It is not morality. It is biology. Why was Lance Armstrong born with the athletic ability he was? Why was Louis Armstrong born with his musical ability? Why was Shakespeare born with his ability to write. It's genetics...plain and simple.

As far as America dissolving, there are some inaccuracies in that. Over 40% of the people in the world will go to bed tonight with no food in their bellies. The majority are not Americans. Many Americans will go to bed stuffed from the second dessert they decided to splurge on. Less than 1% of the world's population will get to go to college, but the majority of that 1% lives in the U.S. Millions of people will die this year in the world of illnesses that rarely kill Americans because of our health care system. So, America is flawed, but it provides opportunity to many (not all) of its citizens that are not afforded to the majority of the world. As far as why we're disliked in the world or being attacked, that has a lot to do with the choices, good or bad, that our current administration has made. It has little to do with relgion. The one thing that does have to do with religion is the fact that many propering countries, many in Western Europe, have been prosperous because religion has been kept out of their government and is a private, not public, matter.

I don't understand how you feel you can question whether I feel loved, special or unique? Can a person only be loved by a god? There is a tremendous amount of love in my life and I don't see the connection between that and relgion. As far as being special, I am as special as anyone, and no more special than anyone else. As far as uniqueness...aren't we all unique? We're not bacteria that just divide and are identical. We are all unique. That seems irrelevant.

As far as nothing separating us from other species...that is incorrect. All species are seperate or they wouldn't be different species...they'd be the same. Some species are more different than other species. A gorilla and a chimpanzee are more similar than a cat and a tree. That's part of evolutionary biology. Humans are an animal, from a biological perspective, but no biologist is going to claim that we're not different. We are. Better in some ways, worse in others. We have evolved a much higher functioning brain than other species which allows us to critically think, reason and have complex emotion. Actually, we are not the only species that has the corner market on this. There is an explosion of research being done right now on the ability of other animals to love, grieve, be monogamous, be heterosexual or homosexual, even to commit suicide. We are not as different as we'd like to think, but we are of course different. There are also many traits that we lack that other animals have. Yes we are superior when it comes to high level thinking and reasoning, but we can't run like a cheetah. We can't hunt like a Great White. We can't fly like an eagle. We can't even land on our feet like a cat. We can't communicate using many modes of communication used by other species. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with biology.

Now as far as the comments about apes and Darwin. I just have to say that either your high school biology teacher did an injustice by not properly teaching you evolutionary theory, or you chose not to learn. I have done extensive research on the life of Charles Darwin. He was once a religious man. He received a degree in theology from Cambridge after dropping out of med school. His observations as a naturalist caused him to question the nature of religion and the notion of a god. He spent years writing his theory, but refused to publish it. His plan was to have it published at the time of his death. His wife was a devout christian and he did not want her to have to deal with the controversey that he knew his theory would generate. After 20 years he did finally publish his theory because he learnd that Alfred Wallace was independently forming a similar theory and Darwin wanted to make sure that he got credit for his lifetime of work. He published and weathered the storm. By the time he released his second book, "The Descent of Man" people were less shocked by his theory and evidence and it wasn't as big of a deal. On his deathbed he grieved for the fact that his wife feared they would not "end up in the same place" in the after life, but he never renounced his theory. I don't know where you read this, but it is highly inaccurate. He was buried in Westminster Abbey, which was controversial at the time. It was not his request, it was the request of the Abbey. It was a way of showing support for such a revered scientist despite his conflict with the church.

As far as the statement "Why do Apes still exists, if these species have already "evolved" into...us?" That also shows a lack of understanding as to the mechanism of evolution. This isn't your fault. Many teachers struggle to explain this concept to students, and many students struggle to understand when filtering the concept of evolution through their concept of religion. When one road in the country forks off into two roads, does the first road not still exist? Apes and humans branced off from a common ancestor to become two different species. Apes didn't become humans. That is a very common misconception. We are highly related to apes and other primate species, but we are not descendents of theirs. Both humans and apes have descended from a common ancestor.

Finally, I look in my children's eyes, and hug them, and kiss them everyday. That is not proof of a god that is proof that their birthparents also had those same features. You are trying to say that the only way a human could be considered special is if they were created by a god. Humans are special regardless of how they got to be on this earth. For you to imply that my lack of belief in a god would lead to my lack or love or amazement for my children is cruel and a very low blow. For you to even imply that the answers to religious questions are in the eyes or the "soul" of my children is so preposterous that I hardly know how to respond.

So, this may be my longest post ever, but I couldn't let this go. I never meant to attack christianity, I just merely stated that I didn't want my children raised that way. I didn't deserve to be attacked for being an atheist, but I was, so I defended myself, my family and my children's birthfamily. None of us has all the answers. We all have to navigate through our lives in a way that brings us peace and makes us better people. For some, that is religion, but for some it is not. A little tolerance for the lives of others needs to be practiced.

[Hopp]

Originally Posted by Lexie

OK- I thought this thread was about how to deal with religious differences--NOT about challenging religious or athiest beliefs.

I agree...what happened here?

ahimsa...your posts were clear on your thoughts and on your question. Wishing you well, and think your response was appropriate!

-Dianna

[redhedded]

ahimsa, Thank you, thank you for your post. I have wanted to reply but did not have the time or the inclination; you did so much better than I could. I particularly appreciate your explanations of Darwin and theory in a "nutshell," for those who are confused. Two of the most preferred books on my shelf are The Life of Charles Darwin and The Third Chimpanzee.

[sugarbabysmommy]

Ahimsa...

[Lexie]

Ahimsa,
Glad to see the thread back on track. Excellent post!!

Lexie