[echaos]

Obviously some religious groups are more tolerant then others, and some reach out and embrace their members no matter what.
How do you reconcile being gay with your religious background / upbringing? Have you found religious support for you and your family? Have you been turned away from your own religion and found comfort elsewhere? Has adding children to your family changed the way your religious community treats you?

One of the potential stumbling blocks of our homestudy was that we did not plan on having the baby baptized / christened etc… I grew up in a Catholic household, but have long since abandoned any organized religion, and my partner grew up in an agnostic household. The SW felt that the panel reviewing our homestudy might not approve us because of this. And this was regardless of the birthmother’s wishes; she didn’t care one way or the other what we decided. All simply because of the attitude of the society we live in.

Has anyone else run into issues because of your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)?

Here is an interesting article on Jewish GBLT adoption. It certainly seems that Judaism is much more accepting then other religions.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/hist...ayAdoption.htm

With more gays and lesbians starting families, same-sex Jewish couples are faced with myriad challenges.

By Jane Calem Rosen

As gay men and lesbians become more integrated into mainstream Jewish life, the Jewish community continues to expand its concept of the Jewish family. This article was originally published on JewishFamily.com, and is reprinted with permission.

Swimming lessons may not be high on every parent's list of appropriate activities for a 3-year-old. But they were important to Alice Prussin. Shortly after the Berkeley, California, resident adopted Rina, she made sure to take the toddler to a local pool. Together, they practiced going underwater until Prussin felt confident that Rina would be able to handle the big event her mother had planned: taking a ritual bath in a mikveh (Jewish ritual bath), according to Jewish law, to mark Rina's formal conversion to Judaism.

Adoption is a Mitzvah

The experience turned out to be so powerful, said Prussin, 42, that it brought all the adults present--two rabbis and the head of the conversion program, as well as Prussin and her partner--to tears, and Rina "lit up like a lightbulb. She got it."

Rina now has a 21-month-old sister, also adopted, whom Prussin, an architectural lighting designer, and her partner also plan to convert.

Twelve years ago, when Wayne Steinman, 48, and his partner Sal Iacullo of Staten Island, brought four-month-old Hope with them to High Holy Day services at Congregation Beth Simchat Torah in New York's Greenwich Village, they opened the floodgates to parenthood for New York City's gay and lesbian community. One half of the first gay couple to openly adopt a baby in the city, Steinman recalled the reaction of friends in the congregation that day. "It was a 'Wow!' reaction. No one really thought about having grandchildren before," he said.

Welcome to the late 20th-century "Gaybee Boom." And if what gays and lesbians have craved from the Jewish community has been acceptance, from the accounts of many such couples who have adopted babies, that embrace has been forthcoming--at least from Judaism's liberal denominations.

According to Rabbi Joel Roth, professor of Talmud and rabbinics at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York City, the academic center of Conservative Judaism, Jewish law does not expressly forbid adoption by gays and lesbians any more than it would object to placing a child with a family that desecrates the Sabbath. "It's a mitzvah (commandment) to care for an orphan," explained Roth. Beyond that, the Talmud doesn't have knowledge of adoption, in the modern sense.

Indeed, for a number of single-sex couples, parenting has been the way back into a form of traditional Judaism from which they had felt estranged. For others, it's been a natural extension of Jewish practice firmly ingrained either from childhood or through connections established as adults. Still others have carved out their own definitions of Judaism to fit what they believe is the best way to maintain a link with a religious and cultural identity they say they wish to pass on to their children. Finally, as with interfaith heterosexual couples, conflicts over which religion to favor are also prevalent for gay couples who don't share the same religious faith.

Welcoming Gay and Lesbian Parents

At the same time, for rabbis--spiritual leaders of both so-called gay and [many] mainstream congregations--the traditional Jewish emphasis on family and commitment to community has provided an acceptable avenue to sanction loving relationships and alternative family constellations not found within the bounds of tradition. "The notion of a typical family doesn't exist around here. It's no longer used as a measure of family," said Rabbi Stuart Kelman whose 10-year-old Conservative congregation, Netivot Shalom in Berkeley, is known to be welcoming to gay families.

While gay couples seeking to adopt report great variation in how much organized Jewish support is available to them--depending on where they live--it is not uncommon in large urban centers such as New York City, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, for the local Jewish Family Services to be extremely accessible. In these urban centers, JFS conducts the legally required home studies and puts couples in touch with adoption agencies and legal resources that are open to gay placement. Prussin, for example was able to turn to the Hebrew Free Loan Association of San Francisco for a loan to cover much of the expense entailed by her adoption.

On the whole, the gays and lesbians like Prussin who are actively engaged in the Jewish community stress the importance of formally converting adopted children. Many want to avoid any questions that may later arise surrounding the girls' Jewish identity. Not all, though, agree that conversion is the most pressing concern gay couples face when they adopt. "I don't believe in biological Judaism. It's not a helpful concept. [Therefore,] I will support [a couple's desire to convert a child], but I don't require it," asserted Rabbi Jane Litman of Congregation Sha'ar Zahav in San Francisco.

For Litman, the biggest challenge facing the organized Jewish community as it works to absorb what she perceives as an ever-growing population of children adopted by gay couples, is in education. "It's really important as Jews that when we give a first-rate Jewish education, to make clear that the family constellation, whatever it looks like, is affirmed as a Jewish way of living; that they are considered fully members of our community," she said. Because the available religious school curricular and teacher-training materials don't yet reflect what Litman called "the realities of our population," she said that Sh'ar Zahav is working to develop these.

Her colleague, Rabbi Sydney Mintz of Temple Emanu-El, also in San Francisco, and the first openly gay rabbi to be hired by the 1,700-household Reform congregation, had another concern. It's critical, Mintz said, that mainstream rabbinic authorities officially recognize the sanctity of gay unions, if not for the sake of the couples, then surely for the sake of their children, both adopted and biological. "As rabbis, we have to give them [the children] a legitimate identification as Jews from the beginning. If a couple feels comfortable and supported and welcome, then their children will feel positive about the Jewish community and strongly identified. A congregation and community that can be accepting of gay couples will enable their children to feel warmth about their affiliation."

[spaypets]

Thanks for posting the article, Andy. It's certainly true in our Reform congregation that gay families are as accepted and embraced as others. In our congregation of about 70 families, we have at least 7 adoptive families, at least one of which is a lesbian couple who adopted from Cambodia a number of years ago. It is a point of pride in our tiny congregation that we are open and embracing.

[LisaCA]

don't forget Episcopalians! we have a gay (and out) bishop here in the US. Worldwide some anglicans have issues (may split the church) with his appointment, but most american episcopalians are fine with it. The episcopal church isn't perfect, but as far as we're concerned, they're moving in the right direction.

I have to say that both dh and I were baptized episcopalian, and didn't intend to baptize our children. Then the episcopalians appointed gene robinson, we decided to send money to the national church (along with a note expressing our support of this decision) and have our kids baptized episcopalians in my family church back east in support of this move. as an aside, the rev. performing the baptism is a black woman and the rev. performing the blessing is a black man-all this in parts of town that are predominantly white-very cool).

and the church has a formal blessing ceremony for the adoption of a child, which we will have at dh's family church back east.

[1of2moms]

As you can tell, we are Jewish. Our congregation has been very accepting- heck we were married in the synagogue last year. D attends religious school and loves it. This spring when it looked like the adoption was going to be on hold for a long time, we had a Hebrew naming for D. We are expecting a baby in the fall and did not want the baby to have a Hebrew name and for D to feel left out.

For people looking for a spiritual home, the Unitarians are also very GLBT friendly.

[Cobb]

Did anyone catch that UCC's general synod voted today to approve a resolution to endorse same-sex marriage?

Andy, I hope you don't mind if I expand this discussion, but it really touches on a concern I have about the foster care system. The foster to adopt siblings we had in our home last year came from a group home. It was supported by a religious organization and the children who lived there were required to attend a church that held very conservative Christian views. Our transition was made more difficult as a result, because the girls came to us believing there was only one "right" way to pray, one "right" thing to believe, etc. They also had a very strong sense of what was "good" and "bad" - which created a whole other set of beliefs we had to deal with. Anyway, we had taken them to the church we go to on Father's Day and our minister also took a moment to recognize single mom's who are both mom's and dad's to their children as well as lesbian couples with children, who also play both roles. One of the girls asked me what he meant and I explained that was when two women make a commitment to one another or get married. Her response shocked me. It was one that she could have only gotten from an adult in her life, do to the religious aspects of her response as well as knowing the houseparents who cared for her, it wasn't a stretch to figure out where. I can't remember exactly, but something about it being "gross" and a sin. This all happened in a matter of whispered moments in our pew and the whole thing unseated me for a minute. Anna was on the other side of her and just said quickly everybody should have someone to love them and it doesn't matter if they are a man or woman. That got us through the moment, but it opened up alot of discussions later on.

My issue is this... While the group home was supported by a religious organization, it recieved STATE MONEY!!!! As a result, they are not allowed to discriminate against a child based on race, religion, etc. But, shouldn't they also not be allowed to teach the children discriminatory viewpoints. They don't have any control over whether a child goes back to there parents, whether they're adopted or who they're adopted by, so how in the world are they able to force their religious beliefs on these kids. They could have easily have come from or been matched with a family of a different faith or a different sexual orientation.

The sadest and hardest part for us was that I feel they took advantage of the girls vulnerability - they were desperate for ANYTHING to believe in. That they found comfort in a belief in God was something I thought was positive, but the fundamentalist aspects of those beliefs was a real area of struggle. A group home should be a temporary situation, therefore IMO, it is not the place to teach a narrow definition of values - especially if the child has no choice in the matter. By definition a child who has been taken from the only family they know (no matter how horrific the situation) has no ability to make such a choice for themselves while in a temporary home. Instead, the specific aspects of belief should have been left for the child's permanent family to teach, whether they return to their families or become a part of a new one through adoption.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

[cakegirl]

I'm not gay, but I am single, and so I have some of the same issues as lesbian couples in Australia who want to adopt - essentially, that there is no "man" or "father" for the application...

Also, I'm not religious.

So yes, I've had some issues... There are many countries that won't adopt to Australia unless the adoptive parents are a married male/female couple. And there are many others (some overlapping) that won't adopt unless you're a member of a church, some also specifiying the accepted religions.

My sister told me to go to the local Catholic church and "convert" so that I could say I was Catholic on my application, and get the letter from the priest, etc., but that's not something I could do - I feel like lying on the form would be the WORST type of karma, and that I have to be 100% open and honest in my application so that I can find the child that is right for me.

Rebecca

[1of2moms]

We have an adult friend who was in the foster system most of his childhood. Each family he lived with baptized him into their faith. As a result, he has no faith. This sort of thing can be very damaging to children.

[Cobb]

Elisabeth, that just irks me beyond belief!!!

When we took our foster parent training course, religion was addressed and it was very clear that fparents do NOT have the right to push their religion onto a fchild. I got into an extensive discussion with another classmate who insisted that she would not let any teenage girl in her home go on birth control, because abstinence was the only acceptable option. While she has a right to her conviction, I thought it was very short sighted and dangerous. I just don't think you can make an absolute statement like that without looking at it case by case, without considering each child's individual history. Likewise, a child cannot be forced or coerced into participating in a religious service and they must be given the opportunity to practice their religion is it differs from yours. Which is why I had to wonder why a group home was exempt from the same rules?

Even with my own child, while we share our beliefs with her and tell her why be believe what we do, it is ultimately HER right and responsibility to develop her own beliefs. She needs to question us for herself and find what works for her. Faith that is "forced" isn't faith... Even now, although we will be adopting Miss A, we wouldnt' dream of baptizing her until the adoption is final.

When we were houseparents we were very cognizant of the kids rights to form their own opinions. We were asked on several occasions what we believed and I was very careful to qualify my responses with "this is what works for us", "different things work for different people..." The director of the home was always amazed that the kids were so open with me about their experiences. Well, being open-minded makes a difference. They knew I wasn't going to judge them, because I had already let them know that I understood that people/families/etc do things differently and that's okay. And, I told them in a very honest way that I didn't know what it was to live their lives, so it was impossible for me to judge that. As a result they told me.

Anyway, I agree that it the whole thing can be very damaging for a child. Not only for the reason you stated, but also because they risk that child's sense of security with other people. If our girls were told that people who don't believe what they were taught were bad, how could they feel secure if the next home they went to believed something different? <sigh>

[echaos]

Cobb, I think this is a great direction for this conversation to go in.

Originally Posted by Cobb

Even with my own child, while we share our beliefs with her and tell her why be believe what we do, it is ultimately HER right and responsibility to develop her own beliefs. She needs to question us for herself and find what works for her. Faith that is "forced" isn't faith...

Cobb, this is a great point! Even though Hilary and I do not attend / believe in organized religion, we plan on exposing Liam to a variety of faiths / services, and using it as a great learning tool for history, anthropology, society etc... and if he embraces one (or more) of them then we will support him in it! Of course we joke that we will be the only Lesbian couple who's son becomes a priest....... But if that's what HE wants then so be it!


I would be interested to know the Canadian rules for religion and fostering...... we don't have that whole "seperation of church and state" stuff that you do, but we do "try" to keep them apart.

[karenw]

This topic came up at a very interesting time for me.
Our fost/adopt son just went into residential treatment 1 week ago after 7 mos in our home and a huge fight with CYFD and the contracting agency. We were within hours of having his placement disrupted when a bed opened at the RTC. The relevant point is that I called T today and he said they had "church" and that he was learning about Jesus. His previous foster home had a christian affiliation so he had some knowledge of Jesus. We are Unitarian though have not been to church in 15 mos. The RTC does not appear to have any religious affiliation, so I was surprised that church was offered there (on a Tuesday). Plus, we have been notified about everything else, such as when he broke the cover of a light socket in a fit. We were shocked he could opt in to "church" without our knowledge. He was pleased with the snack, especially, as he is 7. Although we are not legal custodians, we have been his family and would like to avoid the potential conflict "well gays are sinners". I find it similar to when he came home from respite with an army helicopter. I have no issue with army helicopter pilots, but there are many interpretations of the military and it's role in our lives right now-and I would like the opportunity to opt out of these topics with my future child. He is not allowed to buy military toys while in our home. I see the religion thing as something we should not have to fight against. I hope that this is not another battle when I finally feel we are in a place to make progress and not be adversarial. Luckily, we have a treatment team meeting (the first one) in the morning so I can get more info. We will be raising him to learn about all religions and let him experience his own spirituallity, which is the Unitarian philosophy. My nine year old at 3 informed our friends that we don't "do Jesus" in our church, and she will be Buddhist when she grows up.
Karen

[1of2moms]

I have found our fson's change in religious thought very interesting. When he moved in, he wanted to say a prayer over dinner every night "in Jesus' name". We let him but did not participate. When he asked, we said that we did not believe in Jesus and therefore could not say the prayer with him. We started saying a Hebrew prayer (Blessed are you, God, Ruler of the Universe who has given us bread of the earth). Over time, he started saying it too.

We also took him to the synagogue with us on Friday nights but sent him to the play room. He LOVES going. He was upset each week if we did not go. Now he is very anti-Christian. "We don't believe that". He is far more spiritual than I am, and asks very interesting and difficult questions about religion and God. It has been quite a journey.

[spaypets]

<<QUOTE>>
My issue is this... While the group home was supported by a religious organization, it recieved STATE MONEY!!!! As a result, they are not allowed to discriminate against a child based on race, religion, etc. But, shouldn't they also not be allowed to teach the children discriminatory viewpoints. They don't have any control over whether a child goes back to there parents, whether they're adopted or who they're adopted by, so how in the world are they able to force their religious beliefs on these kids. They could have easily have come from or been matched with a family of a different faith or a different sexual orientation.
<<//QUOTE>>

Acck! Cobb, as a member of a religious minority (I'm Jewish) this use of state money to proseletize makes me crazy. I suppose they got away with it because the children didn't already have a religion. It's my understanding that if I took in a foster child who had an established church affiliation, I'd have to honor it. If they didn't I could bring her/him to temple with me.

I admit, we converted my daughter before the adoption was final, but since it was an international adoption I felt comfortable that the adoption would be finalized.

I have mixed emotions about organized religion, however I think that the best way to prevent my daughter from seeking out a cult, or some form of fundamentalism when she's in her 20s and looking for meaning, is to give her a foundation she can turn to.

[redhedded]

I have mixed emotions about organized religion, however I think that the best way to prevent my daughter from seeking out a cult, or some form of fundamentalism when she's in her 20s and looking for meaning, is to give her a foundation she can turn to.

Wow, Spay, I am bit surprised to see this from you. My own children, as you might have suspected, will be exposed to the practices and teachings Buddhism and Hinduism and will be familiar with the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; however, their foundation will be one entirely of spirituality of self, mind and body. Organized religion will not play a role in our home, and I do not suspect my children will ever seek out "a cult." In fact, I often think of the commonly practiced theologies as a "cult" and have found, of my friends, who practice "fringe" religion or experienced a stage of actively seeking "something," are those who were raised in strong religious faiths and are merely exchanging one for another.

[Cobb]

Andy, LOL - and your comments reminded me of a discussion I had with a friend, who for awhile tried to convince me of the rightness of her views. She believed that since I didn't tell her that she was absolutely wrong and I was absolutely right, that I in some way didn't really believe what I did. I finally explained that just as she found peace and security in her spiritual beliefs, I had found the same in mine. That I could be happy that she found her foundation and asked her to also be happy for me in finding mine. Ultimately, even though I completely disagreed with her, I understood that it wasn't for me to evaluate what was right for her as I didn't live in her skin and I expected that same courtesy. It really served as a turning point in our friendship... In the long run, I feel the same about my girls. If they are able to find in life what makes them happy, whether that be through their spiritual beliefs, their calling, a relationship with someone they love, etc. I'm going to be happy about that. A sense of peace with oneself is a success that too few people ever accomplish, whether what that looks like would personally work for me or not is irrelevant. More than anything, if they have the courage to be who they are (expecially if what's importan to the ends up being against some unwritten "norm") and if they have the ability to be compassionate towards others, I'll be thrilled!

Karen, I just wanted to check in and see if you'be gotten anymore information about the situation with your fost/adopt son and the program he's in. The church we go to also draws from a variety of spiritual sources, the idea being that there is a fundemental truth that underlying all of them, so I completely understand how frustrating that is for you. I sincerely hope that your wishes are respected why he is there. Having been through something similar, I know how difficult it can be afterwards if they are not. I'm sure they will tell you that he "chose" to participate. But, if he's anything like H (who was also 7 when we had her), he's learned how to play by the rules and adapt to wherever he's at for his own advantage. Again, given his situation, I don't think it is possible for him to make that kind of choice. After all, he's not going to make a decision that sets him apart from the other kids or might make him be viewed as less acceptable to the adults.

Elisabeth, we took a similar approach with the girls when it came to prayer. We didn't stop them from praying their way, but also exposed them to a simple mealtime grace and a non-demnominational bedtime prayer. In the long run, doing so stregthened their relationship to us. They specifically defined both as being part of our family. It also helped us distinguish from strangers. i.e. Is this a person who would gather together with us to say these prayers, if not, they were also someone that we didn't walk up to and hug.

Spay, I think they absolutely got away with it because they weren't already practicing a religion. At the time that they entered the group home, TPR was already in the works and their mom was working hard to get someone on her side (she did the same with me), so I know that even if she approved their participation, she did so in hopes that they would see her the way she wanted them to see her. I was actually told quite a few stories from the houseparents about how they entered into conversations with her and then let her "hang herself" - their words, not mine. So, I know that they too were not entirely upfront with her. That just gets me into a whole other rant though. My personal view as a house parent was that it was my job to report facts to the CWer's about what happened or conversations that I witnessed. It wasn't my place to insert my opinion or to draw someone into a conversation with me in order to get information from them that could be used against them.

Very interesting conversation, I hope more poke their heads in and share their thoughts.

[karenw]

Update on the religion in the RTC:
The "need" for religion comes from the state, not the group home. Makes me feel better about the RTC, but appalls me that all foster kids have to have the opportunity to worship. I think that is a crock of hooey in that with very young children it seems more like imposed christianity than choice. The clinical director will speak to the "church person" to discuss our discomfort with him getting mixed messages. We hoped to be able to take him out on passes to our church, but his behavior may limit that for a while. I just do not get the state-sponsored religion thing. Respecting beliefs is so different than mandating them. Morality an dreligion are getting so intertwined in this country.
Karen