[mxf0068]

Ok…forgive me if I ramble on a bit. Sometimes it takes me a bit to get my thoughts articulately expressed… I am fairly conservative and have in the past tended to accept the views around me as my own. As a fairly new parent (ds just turned 5 in April) I feel that I am just now learning how to parent..and often wish I could give my right arm to be able to go back and “re-do” my first few months of parenting. (shh don’t tell my sw! ) It seems that life is more about trial and error. That which works for you… you continue to do and you tend to believe in. That which does not work for you…you stop doing and you tend to discount.
That said, the beauty (and sometimes the problem) of our society is that we are a conglomeration of such a wide array of people, beliefs, and backgrounds. Politics, religion, and parenting styles are a few of the issues that I think we can all admit are topics that often we will have to just agree to disagree on. Because of this, our personal backgrounds and experiences often filter or color how we will react to an article or an item of debate. Wouldn’t it be boring if we all held the same beliefs? We might end up being carbon copies of each other and lacking in the very differences that make our eclectic society so successful.
So let me change the item of discussion for a moment to help make my point. What if instead of the presence of religion or spiritual preference we were talking about whether foster parents (or aparents for that matter) were discussing whether it was ok to place a child in a home where the parents did not eat meat. A child placed in this house would likely over time begin to show an affinity towards a more herbivorous diet and may go so far to refuse ever eating meat products again. This child, for whatever reason, is taken from the home and placed in a new circumstance (say a very “traditional” southern home) where the “new” parents are characterized as a “meat and potatoes” family. Will not this child endure some kind of confusion over the change in viewpoints of these different parents? Perhaps the child will have such convictions about their vegetarianism that they express a lack of understanding towards those who do not share their views (especially if this child came from a family that chose vegetarianism because of a animal rights concerns).
Is it right..or wrong to say that foster parents (or aparents) must be carnivores in order to apply for a license? Must the foster or aparents sign a waiver saying that they will not unduly influence the child under their supervision in regards to eating patterns or food choices? I would hope not. Yet I would also hope that the parents would not look to convert the child but simply explain their opinions on the matter, their reasons for the choice and foster an environment to allow the child to make their own decision.
Back to the subject.. I realize that I am quite naïve. Perhaps foolishly so. Yet I think that religion, religious believes or even the belief in no religious entity is a therapeutic couch (perhaps in an un-Freudian manner) for people. When life seems to be overwhelming, religion allows one to reach out to a super-natural being that seems bigger than ones problems and provide big-picture comfort. (..the sky may be falling, but you as an individual are loved, held, and never forgotten. Soon the darkness will pass the brilliance of the sunrise will symbolize the re-birth of a new day, a new chance to try again) In my life, I would never dare “convert” anyone to my beliefs, yet if you ask me what I believe, I will most assuredly tell you ..and give examples as to why it works for me. Besides why would I want to forcibly require anyone to share a similar belief as me? If someone shares my opinion simply out of requirement but not out of conviction …does that person really believe what I believe? All I have really done is perpetuate a type of communism.
Any child that might in the future be placed with me will no doubt hear about my beliefs on life. To deny this child these discussion is to deny myself to this child. My beliefs are part of who I am. If I am nothing else to this child, I must be myself. They will hear why I believe in God and why I receive such comfort from this. YET I cannot and will not force them to hold the same beliefs that I share. … ok trying really hard to bring my thoughts to a point and struggling so forgive me. Are we not a product of our environment? Do we not often confirm our beliefs based on those around us (either we agree with them, or we don’t agree with them?) Is it wrong to deny Christian families an opportunity to foster (or adopt) simply because families before them have abused their influence upon children in their care? Is it wrong to deny any other family (for any other reason) the ability to foster or adopt simply because of their influence upon children in the family?
Sensationalism attracts attention. Christianity seems to draw so many attacks based on the fanatical actions of the few. Take the Pro-Life stance. Many Christians take a stand for Pro Life… yet few would actually protest in front of a doctor’s office. Fewer still would go so far to instill bodily harm against the treating doctor. The ones that do, do so in the name of “Christianity” yet their very actions contradict their own beliefs. Admittedly what these extremists do is deplorable. Yet, if I tell you that I am a conservative Christian who takes a Pro-Life stand… does that mean I should be labeled the same as the extreme fundamentalist? Isn't any child placed in a home going to gravitate to the beliefs and practices of the home they are in? Even if they ulitmately chose a different path, they will likely be accepting of views they were exposed to...and likely disapproving of views that their parents disapproved of? Cannot this extend beyond just religion? Won't it apply to an affinity to a dog over a cat (or no pets at all) To SUVS over hybrid electric cars? To ketchup with a hotdog vs mustard? To sleeping with socks on..or sleeping with socks off? To liking Country music vs Oldies.
I realize that I will likely be flamed for this..yet .. (deep breath and slow exhale) Is it not the extremists that are the root of the issue? Are there really so many “Christians” who are so ignorant and unloving as to shut their hearts and minds to those around them? Ok..now I realize my naivety. Perhaps what I have just described is what my hope for our society turns into…but clearly not where we currently are. For those of you still reading, thanks for your patience as I work through my own feelings via writing.

[1of2moms]

Karen, you are right, that is crazy. Providing some sort of church activity for kids whose parents request it is one thing, taking all the kids is another. And providing bribes, oh I mean snacks...

[spaypets]

Originally Posted by redhedded

Wow, Spay, I am bit surprised to see this from you. My own children, as you might have suspected, will be exposed to the practices and teachings Buddhism and Hinduism and will be familiar with the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; however, their foundation will be one entirely of spirituality of self, mind and body. Organized religion will not play a role in our home, and I do not suspect my children will ever seek out "a cult." In fact, I often think of the commonly practiced theologies as a "cult" and have found, of my friends, who practice "fringe" religion or experienced a stage of actively seeking "something," are those who were raised in strong religious faiths and are merely exchanging one for another.

Actually, I think we're saying the same thing in many ways. You're giving your children a belief system, just as I am. The difference is, I'm using one that's already laid out for me, complete with traditions and observances--ready-made. I'm just not creative enough to start from scratch. It's much easier for me to take something that's already there.

Maybe I'm dense. I just don't get it when people talk about "spirituality." And it certainly isn't in my DH's frame of reference. So I can't impart "spirituality" without adherance to the Law.

I love reading about how you've structured your family. In many ways, I'm envious of the intellectual freedom you impart. But in the same way I can't raise my daughter comfortably without the structure of rules, because of who I am and how I think, I can't impart "religion" without rules either.

Please don't misunderstand, that doesn't mean I'm authoritarian or believe there's only one way to achieve a goal. And I'm conscious of allowing my daughter to find her own passions. But _I_ need the structure of right and wrong, polite and impolite, proper and improper. That's _my_ authentic self.

[redhedded]

You know Spay, I am quite a type A personality, who has inflexible standards about some things, mostly of myself. Polite and impolite, right and wrong, ethical and unethical is very black and white for me. I allow my kids a lot of freedom, intellectual freedom and freedom to find their creativity and individual selves, but there are many things that I am not flexible about. Like sharing, I was unwilling to believe that a hesitation to share is just what kids just do. My dd was never forced to share her favorite toy or her books (mostly because she was very particular about them and how they were handled- very carefully); we went out to avoid that (rather than have people over), but everything else was required sharing. She once, at 12 months, took a toy away from another child. I removed her from the situation (it was Gymboree), made her leave; she screamed and cried all the way out the door and to the car. I told her one time why we were leaving and she never did it again. She is an incredibly giving child. I see small children, toddlers, hitting their parents everyday. They ignore it or laugh; that sends the message that it is okay. I was not having a child that hit anyone under any circumstances; my daughter did not do it, but I would have never permitted it. I will not permit my children to touch or invade the space of others and am very diligent about how they behave; my dd is considerate of others and would never put her hands on another person. I do not permit outdoor activities, like climbing or yelling, indoors at public places - ever, especially at the library or bookstore, where I see kids acting wild everyday. I expect my children to be respectful, polite and aware of others around them. Funny, one thing that my friend and I discussed several weeks ago is the freedom of shoes. I do not/did not permit my children to go anywhere in public (once they walk) without shoes; I cannot stand that, though I see it everyday, somewhere! Oh, we have rules sister. . .

It is funny that I should come here tonight and find the opportunity to have this discussion with you, one that I like so immensely, as this (verbatim, really) is the discussion that I had with my 2.5 year daughter tonight. It speaks volumes about our "spirituality." (sidenote, she has talked a lot lately about birth, babies in the uterus, which comes from her fascination with the Human Body book)

As I held baby in the other room, I heard my dd flick the roman shade back; she exclaimed:

come quick mama. You do not want to miss the incredible waxing crescent moon that is outside of the window.
I come into the room and put sleeping babe in his crib then raise the shade. My daughter and I both lie on the bed, legs extended horizontally, heads looking up and dangling off of the side of the bed, tilted toward the open shade.

What do you think mom? Isn't it great that I looked out. Do you think Opa has seen it? Do you think daddy has seen it? (I said that I did not know.) She said I want to call and tell them to look out, that it is beautiful. (I said okay we could in a minute.)

I grew in your tummy right? (I said no baby you did not.) I inquired, "Whose tummy did you grow in?" M's she replied. (her birthmother). I said, "yes and now you and I are here together. She loves you very much, do you know that?" She said, I know. Then asked, do you think she has seen the crescent moon tonight? I think it would make her happy.
I said, "I do not know but hope that she has. You know that she can see it exactly as you see it."
She said. I love you so much mama.

When we talk about spirituality in our home, it is about inner strength, conviction and connection, being who you are in the presence of those who are different or unlike you, thinking independently, and knowing that you are responsible for your actions with the knowledge that your actions can affect others. We talk about the connection of all things and the importance of respecting life. We want our children to see the power/cycle of life in nature and all creatures around them, but we talk very specifically and often about science and the evolutionary process.

My teaching her about religion is much like my teaching her about families; some are headed by two persons and some one. Sometimes there is a man and woman, sometimes two women, sometimes two men, sometimes a grandmother or aunt or some where everyone looks similar or others where parents and their children look quite different from one another. Religion, for us, is much like teaching history; we want to expose our children to a world view, to know what others believe and how they live, to ensure that they feel that each "theology" is equally "right" and worthwhile for the believer if it does not hurt others or damage the spirit of strength or individuality.

But spirituality is who we are, what we live; it is our action and our example. We want them to view spirituality as a system of comfort, as a connection that gives them peace. I hope that my kids will get that with the connections that we share with them, with nature, with people, with the music and art that people create and share with others. It is feeling loved and supported through any challenge and life experience. It is what my own parents gave to me.

I was raised in a home where my parents led by example; there was not an instilling of fear to create order. There was strength, calmness and ever present interest in others. While my parents had expectations of us and how we, as a family, did things, there was a lot of freedom, mostly of feelings and the expression of them. There was no ritual or custom; our traditions were based on what we did as a family, traveled, talked about, prayed and sang about. We were taught to learn about others and to value their experiences. I do not remember throughout my entire life my parents saying anything disparaging about another person. When I began questioning Christianity as a theology in college (I had big issues with how it fit into a world system for me), my mother said to me one night. "Life is quite short, and I have lived not nearly enough to presume that I have any answers. What works for one person does not work for another. Be connected to your heart and live as a responsible human and peace will always be in your soul."

While it seems somewhat cliche, it speaks volumes and is exactly who my mother is. She is a Christian who believes that how I live my life is so much more a testament of faith than what I espouse to believe.

Oh, how I have rambled. . .

[mommieof2cuties]

I have been follow this post and agree with much of what red said so I won't retype it. But I will put this in, my husband is half jewish and have Christian, I am also half and half still deciding what I want to raise our son as and we go to both temple and church. Maybe in the end it will be my kids who decide

Summer

[spaypets]

Rambled? No, it's fascinating. I've been thinking about _why_ I believe what I do about the importance of religion in my dd's upbringing. Some of it stems from an event that happened back when I was a reporter.

I'd been sent to cover the graduation exercises of two girls who had been home schooled in a fundamentalist Christian tradition. And I was struck at how sure they were about, well, everything. They were going to go on to college at Bob Jones University and were sure they would get married and have babies and their whole lives were mapped out according to a set plan.

And I have to admit, there was something very attractive about that to me. They had all the answers and were so sure, there wasn't any of the wondering about who they were in the world. They KNEW.

Later, after the article ran, I got a note from one of the mothers inviting me to come to their church. The reason I wasn't tempted was because my _religion_ had taught me that the questions were more important than the answers. Years of sitting through discussions of pilpul (the endless debates of the ancient rabbis, who rarely settled the matter) during Passover had taught me that.

That's not to say that I believe religion is a requirement to lead an upstanding life. My own dearly missed grandfather, in whose memory my daughter is named, was an atheist. He was also the most upstanding, moral, ethical person I have ever known. And he raised my mother, who is equally honest and ethical.

But in a society such as ours, where even our leaders (even the supposedly religious ones) think morality, honesty and ethics are for other people, I am not so sure that I could impart such values without a cookbook, so to speak.

I am not a fundamentalist, I'm not even Orthodox. We miss more sabbath services at the temple than we go to. I mix milk with meat and wear wool and cotton together. But, we light the candles on Friday nights and bless the food and wine. We don't eat bread during Passover. And, when the first buds appear on the trees in the springtime or the first snowflakes fall in the winter, I say the She'hechianu (sp?)--the prayer that thanks G-d for bringing us to this season.

[redhedded]

Spay, I believe that homeschooling is really the defining experience here.

There are literally thousands of children in our city who are homeschooled. I meet them everyday when we are out. Every one that I have met is lovely, smart, confident, sure of himself/herself, sociable, considerate, empathetic and on a path, which they have seemingly independently, (if they are older) chosen themselves of responsible participation in our community. Their educations are both secular and religious. It has been such a learning experience for me and such a joy to meet many of their parents. And. . . much has changed as of late. We have opted to homeschool our daughter for now for these and several other reasons.

the questions were more important than the answers

You know I really love this. This is exactly what my parents urged my sister and me to do (about everything) and what I will urge my own children to do. Never stop learning and asking questions, especially the hard ones.

Thanks for sharing your views with me.

[spaypets]

While I understand the attraction of homeschooling, I actually think it's bad for society. Sure, it's really easy to be confident and assured if you're never challenged out of your comfort zone. I'm not speaking of academically, I'm speaking of socially.

Of course, I say that, having lived (and continuing to live) in a rural community where all incomes attended public school. I learned an enormous amount about families that were vastly different from mine.

It distresses me that my nieces live in a neighborhood and attend a school where everyone is just like them. They don't know anyone poor, let alone play with them on a playground or sit next to them in school.

I went to school with kids so poor they lined their leaking boots with bread bags. I am fortunate that I still see many of them so I know how far they've come in the world.

Elementary school was hell for me, actually. I was the kid who was picked on, the kid who had no friends. I would have preferred not to have gone through that, but I am a stronger person because of it.

I know, Red, that you will take every opportunity, as you do now, to expose your children to the world at large. But, I have met so many people who use homeschooling as a way to limit their children's exposure to things they don't like, understand or approve of, I wonder how they will respond when confronted with them. Or is this country destined to become a country of communities with gates, not just outside the neighborhood but in our minds. Already we associate only with people of like minds, read publications that we agree with, watch newscasts that reinforce our own opinions.

Melting pot? Heck we're not even dining in the same restaurants!

[redhedded]

Oh, I know. Every single one of your points and so many more have occurred to me, been processed in my mind and reevaluated time and time again regarding this issue, and I so agree with much of your opinion. Dh and I have very mixed feelings, but our daughter's unique experience, we feel, mandates this choice, at least for this time. I do think that a small town is very very different than a city like in which we live. Public schools are atrocious. Even if they were good, we know that none of them, available now, can meet our daughter's needs. Her experience has been varied and diverse.

I, frankly, think our lives are quite a melting pot, socially, economically, racially and religiously. Though I acquiesce.

watch newscasts that reinforce our own opinions

The only news I choose today is the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

[echaos]

I just wanted to jump back in and say that I am truly a better person for having had the opportunity to learn form both Red and Spay's "ramblings"!

Thanks ladies!!

[Cheryl62]

On a political website I frequent, I came across a story today that's somewhat relevant. It's about a mother whose lesbian daughter committed suicide.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...erence10m.html

But I also found the website of the mother's organization, and found her story very moving, and her letter to James Dobson of Focus on the Family (under News on the below site) interesting as well.

http://www.teach-ministries.org/

[karenw]

Thank You to all of you sharing your inner thoughts on this thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed the dialog and appreciate the spiritual side of each of you.
Thank you, too, Andy for initiating these threads that could be contentious. Ithink the concept of respect for each other is most important-especially on topics of religion, politics, or sexuality.
Karen

[moonbridge]

We are now in Month three of the preadoption process. Both of us feel strongly that our boys need a strong spiritual foundation. Both of us have spiritual views that do not fit into any of the "mainstream" religions. We already swore off any religion that does not accept gays and lesbians, even if the local church does. I'm sorry. I will not give money to a local church while knowing that the religion as a whole does not want me, just my money. That wrote off a lot of religions off the top. Aftre shopping around we settled on an Unitarian church. It has been great. The boys love it. It has a strong education program, which was a must for us. Since we both said we are going to the church for the boys not us. We are looking forward to them growing up in this church.