[mlbsands]

I also posted this on the foaster care side.. but thought some people here could also give me some advice (since we are also in the process of tyring to finalize our baby's adoption)

I will try to be brief.. we are foster parents to a 16 y/o female "B" who has been with us for 1 1/2 years.. we are also persuing adopting her as soon as her adoptive parents (she has already been adopted once at age 9) rights are terminated (they have agreed to the termination).

Lately she has given me this "feeling" that something is wrong.. she has been very moody and quite and then the enxt minute all lovey dovey.. but has seemed to direct most of her agner toward me in the form of lots of back talk and glares etc..

Her previous adoption disrupted due to allegations from her that they mistreated her - they allege its not true and they she was very cold and manipulative. They still have her bio sister as the state felt that she was safe in thier home.. But she was actually the child they had wanted to adopted and our foster daughter was adopted by them as part of an agreement to let them adopte the younger sister.. also.. she has 4 other siblings all in the care of other bio family (no one would adopt 'B")

Lately she has been making weird comments on things she thoguht we would not let her do (like go see her sister - when we have NEVER not let her see her) and just basicaly been making me wonder whats going on.. We have talked to her social workers/therapist.. she tells them nothing is wrong..

They this morning we are all up at 5 am getting ready for work (my husband and I) and she getting ready for school.. She was bubbly and happy and going around giving us all hugs and kisses and telling us that she loved us.. gave my husband a bug hug.. and even gave the baby a kiss (we have recently adopted a little baby and she has been VERY jealous of him - we are working with her therapist on this).. then we all leave for work and school..

By the time I get to work.. the school nurse has left me a message to call them. When I do she tells me that "B" had been in this morning complaining of a sore eye and saying that she had fallen down our stairs last night and hit her head pretty hard and that now she cannot get her contact in.. and that she was sore from the fall.. The nurse asks her why she did not tell us this morning and she says that we were asleep and that she was NOT ALLOWED to wake us.. and that she would get in trouble for doing so.. then the nurse askes her why when she called us at home (if we had been asleep we would have still been home by the time the nurse was calling) we were not there and basically thought "B" was lying.. She also tells me that this is not the first time that "B" has come in there with "outrageous" stories and complaining that she cannot tell us or she will get in trouble.. The nurse suggest that we need to talk to her about all this..

UUUGGGHH why would she lie like that?? She is making it sound (to the nurse) like we are neglectful of her when we are NOT...

She fell with our 3 month old a few weeks ago and he ended up in the hospital with a bad consussion and several people have suggested to me that perhaps it was not an accident?? I do not want to believe that.. but now she is lying to the school ..

she frequently "falls" by throwing herself to the floor and complaining of this or that.. but then says "gee I should not do that"..

So.. we are a bit concerned.. our adoption of the baby is not yet final.. so we are worried about that.. my husband has a job that he will lose if there is so much as a complaint made to any authorites.. and we feel like the nurse is saying that she is getting many "stories" from "B"..

Ok.. this has gotten way long.. we have calls into her SW and therpaist and want them to come out today and talk with her.. can anyone give me any more advice/words of wisdom? Does this sound strange to anyone else?? we also do not want to make a big deal out of this if its not..

Mandy

[33458]

Yes - this IS strange behavior and she seems to be acting out...maybe in want of additional attention...

Questions! I have questions!

Has this happened prior to the baby entering the picture?

Have you come right out and asked her what it is that she wants from this arrangement? What her feelings are about being adopted - and how she feels about her birth family not wanting to take her in?
(16 years old - she's old enough to have a serious conversation with.)

Why is the adoptive family abandoning her? Did the state decide that she had a valid accusation, or did the parents decide she was just too much for them?


Do you set limits in the household so that she understands boundaries?
Does she rebel or do you let her operate by her own rules?
I'm just wondering what might set her off...

Therapists are only as good as the patient is at lying - it is very easy to convince anyone (even a professional) that everything is fine...you need to document every incident at school (the "outrageous stories") and anything happening at home to discuss with the counselor, and then go to the sessions WITH her to sit in on part of the meeting (only part) so that the therapist can observe you interacting - and then question her without you there about anything he noticed...

She "fell" with the baby? She has a habit of intentionally "falling"?
OK - that's not normal at all.
Drama? Self-inflicted punishment? Couldn't tell you.
But, to be sure, I'd advise that you not have her hold the child until you've figured out exactly what is going on with her...

[79nic]

Mandy,

More questions from me, too....

What was her behavior like when she first came to you? Did she start calling you "mom" right away? Did she start telling you she loved you within a few days?

Has this child gotten any kind of counseling or child prepartion service at any time in the past?

Does she have any kinds of diagnoses?

Do you know much about her birthfamily history? Why was she removed from her birthfamily? Was there any neglect involved?

[redhedded]

Mandy, I do not have any words of wisdom but just wanted to provide some support; this must be a very difficult time for all of you. It seems that your daughter has many unresolved issues that may be arising with the addition of a new baby. I think I would err on the side of overreacting and take all of these things very very seriously. I can only reiterate 33458's suggestion to document, document, document and attend part of therapy session with your daughter and discuss such issues with therapist independently. I wish you peace and luck.

Variable potpourri, I love your photo!

[33458]

Thanks, Red!

I sold the 'ol hat on eBay, but kept the auction photo.

Back to the topic at hand...

I went over to the Foster forum (I'm usually in International adoption, albeit still rarely) and read the responses there about this situation. I agree whole-heartedly with the suggestions Mandy received there.

It's hard to give up and think the worst - really...the reason we adopt is to make a life with someone, sharing the ups and downs of family life - kinda like that "for better or worse" thing, but it sounds like this girl is a major problem. That in itself would be managable if it was just you and the husband and you didn't have the concerns about his employment and false accusations...the baby in the house makes this a harsher judgement, but I would still think a more aggressive approach to counseling is worth a shot before you throw in the towel.

Follow your instincts. If you feel afraid or uncomfortable, there is a good reason.

[Linny]

Having come from the experience of adopting seven children---and three were 'older child adoptions. And....having the experience of one of those older children now being a 'disrupted adoption'........I can say this:

This girl left the other adoptive home for good reasons. It is not easy to disrupt an adoption...and I understood you to say that this family was allowed to keep the other child, because they felt she (the other child) could now be safe. There is 'wisdom' in those words.

I'm with the previous poster. If you were to have only this older girl.....things might be very, very different. But, you now have an infant....mixed with a very manipulative lying teen. Not a good mix.

Yes, I know that we're supposed to 'stick it out' with these kids...we're supposed to give our all....but this is a girl that is showing some serious signs---even before she came to your home. Now, your decision cannot simply involve 'her'....it must include your baby son as well.

Bottom line---my advice would be to have her moved. I would not devote the chance that I would also be 'charged with neglect or abuse' and therefore lose the custody of my infant son as well. Kids who act as she is......can be very convincing. These boards speak often of families who's reputations have been tarnished (or ruined)....and who have spent tons of money in court, proving their innocence. If you intend to have a forever family with your new son---and/or possibly adopt again........I would not take the chance that her allegations would put a stop to all that you hold near and dear now.

Just my two-cents....

Sincerely,

Linny

[skootinalong2]

Document, Document, Document!!!!! I know that advice has already been given but please make sure you document everything. Even something you might think is no big deal. Kids who have been in more than one home and rejected sometimes will "blow out " of placements. They do it on purpose. Reject before you are rejected. She obviously has alot of issues that need to be dealt with. Ask the school nurse to write down what she has experienced with her. You want to be very careful , your adoption is not finalized with your baby. You do not want to end up in the middle of an alligation. It sounds like this poor girl has been through alot with her birth family and previous family. She needs someone who is going to stick it out with her. She may need a family where she is the only or youngest child.

[mlbsands]

Thanks so much to everyone.. I have gotten lots of good advice on here and on the foster board...

let me try to answer some of the questions.. She left her foster home (abuse allegations) but that went know where other than the state said she did not have to go back.. they agreed that they loved her, but that did not really fight to get her back mostly due to all her "drama".. the state felt fine to leave her sister there. I think there is truth on both sides of that situation..

She started telling us she loved us a month or so after being herer and was here about 8 mos prior to calling us mom and dad (she wanted to go back to her bio family in the beginning - this was NOT a pre-adoptive placement).

She has had therapy over the last 2 years both in patient and out patient.. but I agree maybe not the right kind (no attachment therapy)

We have had MANY talks about her wants/desires.. but I fear that at times she just says what she thinks we want to hear.. (

Things took a turn for the worse Thur night, she admitted to suicidal thoughts.. her SW'er was here.. more happened yesterday and after a visit to the hospital (for a psyc eval) they felt like that was just more manipulation on her part (she liked the attention our son got when he was in the hospital).

She is now saying that she may not want to come back here (at first she told them she wanted to go back to the 30-90 diagnostic center and then she would be "better" and come back home (with us).. she now thinks that perhaps she should be the youngest in the home or at least just with another FOSTER child.. (no one that has any more "status" than she)..

So.. they took her last night for respite with a wonderful lady that we know.. and we will learn more on monday!!!

We also have to decide over the weekend if we want to try to get her back or let her be moved for good..

On one hand we do not want to be yet another family to "not fight for her" but at the same time.. we have listened to your words of wisdom about not putting our family in any more danger of lies and possibly losing our son.

If she does leave for good.. she will be our last foster child.. we both feel very sad and like we have failed her..

THANKS for all of your help.. please keep it coming and I will update when I know more.

<Mandy

[79nic]

Mandy,

Thanks for the update. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Please take whatever I say with a grain of salt, as I am most definitely NOT an expert in childhood mental health and attachment.

But this situation sounds similar to one I encountered recently, in which the child IS NOW (after a disrupted adoption) diagnosed with RAD.

I certainly don't want to scare you. I see the posters on the foster care board have already suggested this, though, so you must be thinking about it already.

As I said, I'm not an expert.... And I really cannot go into details of the case this reminds me of for confidentialtiy reasons... but please just be cautious. I definitely agree about not leaving your hubby alone with her. And not leaving the baby alone with her.

And if you do decide to try to get her back, yes, please seek out an attachment therapist. A general therapist is often not enough/not right for a child with an attachment disorder (if that's what this is).

Many, many (((hugs))) to you. You are in my thoughts.

Nicole

[mlbsands]

Thanks..

well she went into respite for the weekend and apparently she told her worked that she "does not feel comfortable" in our home any longer (she said that it had nothing to do with any kind of abuse thanks goodness) and that she no longer wants to be adopted and that she just wants to be set up for independant living..

Now.. our foster agency wants us to take her back for 30 days so that they can find her a new family and such.. we are just NOT sure about this.. here she is saying that she wants to be removed.. she has lied about lots over the last few weeks.. (to school officials as well).. at the hospital last week they basically decided she was just being manipulative and she even pissed off her worker who had to spend hours there with her.. and well.. we are just not sure she could come home at this point..

If she does.. she will likely tell everyone we are kicking her out (already came up at school on friday apparently) and we do not need our neighbors/friends (who have kids her age) thinking we are mean and kicking her out.. Plus.. my husband is worred that she will be less likely to follow rules and such knowing that she is leaving..

Thoughts??? we have told them that we need to think about this.. but if its a safty issue for our home/jobs they cannot make us take her back for 30 more days.. they say we are supposed to give them 30 days notice if we want a kid removed. but she is the one asking to be moved not us...

UUUGGGHHHH I feel like I just lost my daughter and I have no idea how I am supposed to now take her back and then lose her again???

Mandy

[Linny]

Mandy:
Speaking from experience, and from the experience of people within our adoption support group, I would NOT bring her back into your home.
Consider it a blessing that she has not 'pointed the finger at you for alleged abuse'. I would claim to your agency that for the safety and reputation of your family, you will not take her back. (This 30 day stuff is a joke anyway. If they can find respite for her for a weekend, then it's likely someone would take her for 28 more days. With her 'history' of lying, this should be no shock to anyone.)
And......in reference to you feeling like you lost a daughter. Consider that your family has shown her how a real family operates. She is old enough to realize this---whether she changes her behaviors or not. You have done what you can. You can only go so far with this while considering the safety of your other children.

Good luck....


Sincerely,

Linny

[Just Julie]

No way would I take her back and risk further harm to my baby! That's my brief response and bottom line for your situation.

[mlbsands]

She will not be coming back.. they are going to keep her at the respite home for the week and move her to a new home this weekend.. Both of us cried most of the day yesterday as this is all very sad.. but we know in our heads its the right thing..

THANKS so much for all of your support.

mandy

[skootinalong2]

Mandy,

Will keep you, your DH and foster daughter in my prayers. I know this was a difficult decision but sounds like it's best for everyone.

[Just Julie]

Mandy, I too pray that she will get the care she needs and deserves in her new situation. She will surely remember your care and kindness to her. Rest assured you have had a very positive impact on her life over the last 1 1/2 years.