[Katrinad]

Being aware that there are many differences in the American and New Zealand adoption processes, but there are also many, many similarities.

I am not interested in having an argument with anyone.

My interest is in challenging our NZ system, with the hope of injecting more balance to our adoption system. As I said, there are many similiarities in our systems, but way fewer adoptions per capita here. I need to do some research on the things that are great and the things that are awful about the adoption process.

Are you interested?
Kat

[mj77]

I'm interested in learning about how adoptions work in other parts of the world. I have nothing to add here to a discussion as I have no idea how adoptions work anywhere but here in the US. I would love to hear from people who have insights on this topic though.

[lisa in venice]

My understanding is that the system in both NZ and Australia are really set up to discourage adoption. In an attempt to keep birth families together they don't allow pre-birth matches and seem to discourage much openness in adoption for fear of coercing birth parents. That is the understaning that I got from some self avowded anti-adoption folks who hold up those two countries as example of good adoption policy.

What I think would be good policy would start with madatory education of both birth parents and adoptive parents. Through counseling and parenting support systems for birth parents.

I don't think there should be any money invovled in the process. Even if it only to pay professionals it puts an undue burden pon adoptive parents to push for a particular situation to become a placement.

One particular statute that I believe needs reworking is the ICWA. Right now there are too many children left in limbo by this legislation. It was well meaning but it can be daconian. I think there should be a "best interest of the child" over the interest of the Tribe.

I think in dependency adoptions there should be concerrent planning with a six month to one year window to effect reunification. After that TPR should happen quikly. At the same time there need to be more resources in family services to help at risk families.

There's probably a whole bunch of other things I would like to see but can't think of them now.

lisa

[Leigh131313]

I'm here if i can be of help
leigh

[Katrinad]

Helloooo,
My jaw is on the floor!! Lisa, that just about sums it up nicely. In fact dh has just left our office, saying he is so against the dept at present he will not be attending day 2 with me tomorrow.

Here's an overview of NZ adoption:

Introduction session (evening)
Application Forms including police reports, medical reports, and two referees (fairly standard I think)
(Apparently there is supposed to be a sw interview in here as well, we didn't have one)

Then come the two Ed and Prep day courses, which are held 1 month apart, and only TWICE A YEAR. You're stuffed if you aren't able to attend one of the days at the time it is on. And it is policy that applicants attend both days.

Day 1:
Involving Shared Fate/Parental Roles/Comparison of Closed and Open Adoption/GRIEF AND LOSS

SW interview (which we had by PHONE because there were so many people at the first day.)

Day 2:
Involving Early attachment/Nature vs Nurture/MORE GRIEF AND LOSS/Trust/Profiles/Placement

Consider background to Profile doc (I have no idea what this means yet)
SW interview
Complete the profile
Enter the pool

Lisa, I could spit chips at Aus and NZ being held up as examples of good adoption process. About a year ago, a family known to the dept had to cope with the ordeal of their murdered 6yr old because the dept had fobbed off her father (separated parents) when he rang them several times in deep concern. Her mothers' partner killed her. OOOHH, they make me mad. We have nowhere else to go for adoption. If you want to adopt internationally you have to do the above, as well as a third day which is only available in one city in each of our main islands.

Sorry to go on.
Kat

[mj77]

My goodness, I had no idea it could be so difficult! I'd think NZ would want to make it a little easier to find these kids adoptive homes, not burdensome.

[Decision]

I think New Zeland and Australia have great laws concerning adoption.
Certianly they are sticky, there are many loop holes to go through but otherwise it is sound.
Take for instance adoption...well anywhere else in the world.
Most adoptions done here (Canada) or the US are to quick, and with lots of room for coersion, confusion, and out right baby selling. They are too loose with the system here.
I sympathize with your delemma, but think of it this way, at least you know (after going through all of that) you are completely ready for adoption, the natural mother is completely ready for adoption. That system can get no more perfect than it is for all involved. The grief councilling alone is awesome, there are so many adoptive parents out there that don't believe they should grieve for their infertility, do you realize the complications this alone can bring into an adoptive home? Many countries, including Canada are looking into changing their adoption policies to mirror what they have in Australia and New Zeland...there everyone knows they are making the best decision possible. With such a straight and narrow system in place there is no room for sloppy mistakes. You will not find anyone in Australia unhappy about a current adoption plan/placement. You only find this in countries that don't have that fabulous system. Yes it is difficult to adopt there, and with reason, I belong to an organization that originated in Australia, and facilitated the adoption system you speak of so I do know the reasoning behind such a system. There is valid reason why that system is in place. Adoption is not a minute proccess, it should not be taken lightly (not that it is for the most part). It should be a proccess that you put alot of thought into before beginning, and this is what that system is in place for...to make sure that this is the best decision possible...after all that is what we all want isn't it
Hugs
melissa

[Lindsie]

I just thought that I'd post because I was so interested in the discussion. I'm in Australia and am appalled by how difficult it is to adopt and the fact that older child adoption seems unheard of unless you go overseas. I would love to adopt an older child (not right now as I'm only 24) at some point in the future but from what I can see, you can only become a foster parent of the child. It seems that until they are 16 years old (and age out of the system) the parents can keep coming back to the court for changes to the orders.

I work in a law firm and have a couple of clients who have had their kids in the care of the state for over 4 years and they have recently applied to the court for the kids to come back. Some of the other people at my office and I have talked about it (at length) and have decided that the biggest failing of the system is that at no point (we think) does the system step in and say "look parents, you've had 3 (or 4 or 5 etc) chances and you haven't changed anything so we are going to let your child have a shot at a family who is interested in their welfare" and then have what American's call TPR and let someone else try to adopt the child.

As for the "pool" system of choosing a parent for a newborn, what about those poor families who sit on the list for 10 years while the people who do the choosing pick the better/brighter/wealthier people to parent the baby. There has to be a more fair way than that. The way it stands now, you would be better off moving to another country and trying to adopt that way then being one of the lucky 100 in Australia who actually manage to start a family that way.

ps. please forgive the tirade, I just had my idiot client that is trying to get his finally well adjusted kids back make an appointment

[sane]

Originally posted by mj77
I'm interested in learning about how adoptions work in other parts of the world. I have nothing to add here to a discussion as I have no idea how adoptions work anywhere but here in the US. I would love to hear from people who have insights on this topic though.

i can tell you how adoptions work in austria. in austria there are only a few inercountry-adoptions per year. in my federal state (tyrol), there were 10 inercountry-adoptions last year.
most people adopt from foreign countries: especially: ethiopia and nepal (there is no contract between austria and china).

if you want to adopt you have to go to the youth welfare office. there you have some taks, and one meeting at home with a social worker. in most federeal states you have to visit a seminar for adoptivparents (it lasts two weekends).
Then you are on a waiting-list. In my federal-state it lasts about 3 to 5 years until you get the baby.
this is one of the reason, why couples try to adopt from other countries: the procedere is the same: after the seminar they get the social report, then they can start to collect all documents, which are needed for one country.

[Kindreds]

I believe both NZ and Australia tightened their adoption laws after concucting "inquires" into adoption abuses that occured post WW2. Australia and NZ populations are also shrinking and I believe they are encouraging more births not less. Both countries also provide financial incentives for having children be you a married mother or a single mother.

[jude4691]

Hi,
In the UK a mother cannot sign adoption papers to relinquish her baby until 6 weeks after the birth(to let hormones settle and be sure of her decision).
As far as I am aware bmums and amums are not matched before birth and the baby would go in to foster care. The bmum(providing she was not a danger to her child), could reclaim that child up to the point that the adoption papers were signed.
If children cannot be kept with bfamily efforts are made to find adoptive homes if this is seen as in the best interest of the child. However as most adopters want babies or toddlers, older children are harder to place, though they may be more likely to be adopted if part of a sibling group with a younger child.
Adopters have to go on a training course and complete a home study-anywhere between 6-12 months to complete.Police checks, medicals and references are required.
The system is slow, undermanned and often adoptive parents do not receive the support they need to maintain difficult placements. Often social services will go for the cheapest therapies for children rather than the most suitable.

[Katrinad]

I have been to day 2. I am too mad right now for anything but vitriole, so I will spare you all that. I am told, at the end of the day, that our application will not progress until dh has attended day 2, in three MONTHS time. The sw should have told us that two weeks ago. Had I known we would both have been there, or both not been there. FUMING.

More tomorrow.
kAT

[Katrinad]

Living in NZ, I am unaware of the govt encouraging larger families. The "financial incentives" referred to are Family Assistance from the IRD, dependent on your income and number of children and the Welfare Benefit for Sole Parents. Also introduced this year was 6 months paid parental leave, based on a percentage of your earnings, you having been in paid employment (I think fulltime) for at least 6 months before leaving work. Great for working first time mothers or women who have worked while prior children were in daycare before taking maternity leave for a subsequent child. Tough for the selfemployed or stay at home mums. Apparently in Australia you receive a lump sum payment on the birth of a child? Correct me if I am wrong. I think we have an average of 180 placements a year and 18,500 plus abortions a year (that's my soapbox). Our applications and all checks and references are valid for two years.
Also, I learned yesterday, that we don't have to wait 6 months for Day 2, we only need wait 3months for Day in a centre near us. Like 200kms away.

[kiwi]

@ Kat