[scrapbookgirl33]

7 yr old daughter joined our family a few months ago. She knows the house rules and we use logical consequences. No matter how much we discuss honesty, she continues to lie. Sometimes the lies are minor and sometimes they're not-so-minor.

Recent example - asked her why she chose a specific book. Seemed simple enough - but she made up some story and it was so obvious she was lying.

I gave her time out and suggested she think about her lie and come tell me why she lied. She continued to say "I don't know, Mom." Then later she made up a reason.

I gave up on trying to get her to understand the why, but continued to ask her what the truth was.

I'm just frustrated with this. What is the right thing to do to get this child to tell the truth? We try not to punish and have made it clear that telling the truth can mean a lesser punishment.

Abandonment issues? Attachment issues?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[mlbsands]

How long has she been living with you?? Some of this may very well be a trust issue..

Also.. many of these kids were so used to be punished no matter what they said.. that it becomes easier for them to make up something than it is to tell the truth...

With our 15 year old (perm. foster placement) we had to really earn her trust.. and at times that ment picking our battles.. do we believe everything she says.. no.. but sometimes you need to just let them know that you "TRUST" them.. if she lied for example about what book she was reading.. I might say.. "huuummm I though you were reading the other book.. so, would you like to tell me what this book is about???" she would then want to avoid the talk since she had lied.. I would simply then then say.. "well.. would you like to tell me about this other book instead? (the one I knew she read)..

Then we would just go on with things.. to me.. why "punich" her over which book she read.. she needed tolearn to trust that I was not looking for reasons to punish her.. she neede to learn that I just was looking for things to talk to her about and that I was showing an interest in her..

While I agree that for certain things you MUST punish the child.. I think that you also need to pick your battles and with some of these kids it means first gaining there trust.. then you can work more on "normal" issues with kids that age...

Our 15 y/o has been with us 8 months now and we are only now really seeing the results of the trust we have built up..

Anyway.. just some things to tthink about.. good luck...

Mandy

[kforkids]

I'd need more info before offering much of a suggestion. Is this girl new to your family as a result of foster to adopt, or an international adoptee from an orphanage? Or did she come to you by some other means?
A child in an international situation might be so much yonger than her actual age that she might lie because she is at that stage.
A child who has been in foster care might lie because that is what has been modeled for her.
Does she have delays from fetal alcohol exposure or anything else that might now be coming to light since she is in a stable situation?

[St.Ives]

i would be reluctnt to punish a child for somethng like that because you really have no way of knowing if she was lying or not. chances are you may have punished her and she didnnt even lie. but even if she did its only because she doesnt trust you yet, or probably trust anyone, so i agree why give her more reasons not to trust you.

[Xanny]

She might also be trying to tell you what she thinks you want to hear, to please you. Or if she was abused, she may have been told she was abused for saying the wrong things, so she tries to say the right things to avoid punishment.

It could be trust issues, she might be trying to push you away, or any number of things. But she might also be going through a phase. I used to lie when I was that age. I know I hid food in the trash when I didn't want to eat it. I did it because I knew my parents would yell at me if I said I didn't want it. So I threw it out, covered it with trash, and said I ate it. Then they were happy with me.

Your daughter may never have been asked "why" before. It sounds like she might be confused about the question, but she wants to please you, so she says something. I would try sticking to the concrete with her for a while.

Best wishes,

Xanny

[ll_bay]

St. Ives and others-
I don't mean to be critical, but I would give this a-mom the benefit of the doubt. She is the one living with the child and in a position to know whether she is lying. When you're with a child day-in, day-out, you can tell if they're lying, even over stuff that for an outsider, it might be hard to tell. I have two daughters, 7 and 4, adopted internationally at 3 and 6, and both have told lies very much like what she describes, and believe me, I knew they were lies. For us, we realized it was part of the attachment process and learning to trust us. Also, even though my kids are their "real" ages or perhaps older, it is important to remember that pretty much any adoptive child may go through stages of regression as they adjust, and I know that was part of it for our family too. FWIW, when they lied and we knew it, we simply called them on it and told them we knew they were lying, but didn't force them to tell the truth (since we knew it anyway). Over time the behavior has all but disappeared. The hard thing is, if they do lie, then get caught and tell the truth and the truth reveals a different misbehavior, to make it VERY clear that any discipline given is for the misbehavior, not for telling the truth. In fact at times we have waived the punishment to reward for telling the truth, which seems to help.

[lucyjoy]

Crazy lying is a trust/attachment issue and she can't stop it at this point. I don't know is also a classic response of avoidance.
I would start by reading Greg Keck and Regin Kupecky's Adopting the Hurt Child. They have good descri[tions that explain why kids do this. First, never ask why, it's a set up for failure. If she tells you an obvious lie, say something strange back, it breaks the tension and often the child will tell the truth. I had a kid swear to me soaking wet clothes were dry for two years. I asked him how the dog looked in the purple dress and he said, I didn't want to have to check the dryer again. (You'll drive yourself nuts trying to make sense out of this).
I would suggest consulting an attachment therapist familiar with adoption. There are likely other issues that have yet to surface.
The more she knows the behavior bugs you, the more fun it is.
YOu may wish to check out www.radzebra.org and www.attach.org

[scrapbookgirl33]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. It is wonderful to have someone read and understand - or at least try. There are so few people I can talk to - most wouldn't understand or are more interested in the info for "gossip" (if you've adopted, you are probably used to nosiness...)

Lucyjoy - if you adopted child said something about not wanting to check the dryer? That made me think he or she had to get in the dryer as a punishment in the past. I can say that because it happened to me as a child.

Also, I've read everything I can get my hands on about parenting the adopted child, the older child, attachment disorders: Don't Touch My Heart; Attaching in Adoption - Practical Tools for Today's Parents, etc... They're great - but sometimes I still question what I'm seeing....

We have 4 children. The oldest is biological. The 2nd was adopted at birth and the last two joined our family about 8 months ago. The adoption is not yet final. To be quite honest, there have been some issues that made us hesitate to complete the adoption - not all of them directly related to the children or their behavior.

I can definitely tell when she lies. It's very easy. It's not crazy lying. We try not to make her feel afraid to tell the truth, but apparently she is still afraid to be honest. I can't remember who said it, but it's good advice to choose the battles and it is silly to punish over lying about a book. I didn't think of it as punishment - I just wantd her to think about why she didn't want to tell me the truth. Maybe I am expecting too much. I have told her how it hurts me when she lies.

I guess it is a trust issue. I would like to think we are doing and have done the right things to build trust by now, but I'm a lot older than 7 years old and honestly, I have no idea how long it takes to learn to trust someone.

From what I've heard and read, it might take a long time - maybe a lifetime?

[lucyjoy]

My son wasn't afraid of the dryer, doing chores was inconvenient and interfered with playing. My point was that the lying was so automatic, that by saying something strange it kicked his brain into function mode.

Crazy lying is obvious lying. The child has the book in his hand but says "What book?" when you ask him about it. Or, he lies when it would be easier to tell the truth.

She likely has no idea why she doesn't want to tell you the truth.

[scrapbookgirl33]

I do think she tries to tell me what I want to know - this is pretty sad to me - to think she's already trying to please or be "good" at age 7, when they should be able to be good without trying. But I do know what the books say. However, it's hard to get the "head" to line up with my heart.

I feel stupid for even wondering about this - I ought to know - but when I tell someone that it hurts me for them to lie, and they continue to do it, my heart overrides my head. And I just forget what I've read, I guess.

I'm really glad to have these replies because it helps me to realize that I've got to change my thinking.

[crayons]

While growing up, my mother was always drunk, she was a very abusive drunk, I learned to watch expressions on her face to see when she might hit me, I learned to say just what I thought would please her, I was so afraid I wouldn't get it right, anyway, that's a tough job for a kid, trying to please, even my telling the truth didn't help me most of the time. I was being put in a foster family at twelve years old because I ran off when my mother was beating me, the social worker took me to meet the family and I used my testing trust skills on them, I told them I did drugs (didn't know what drugs were, just that my mother did them) this way I would know if they would love me no matter what, needles to say they didn't want me after that. I suffered for that lie, like you wouldn't believe, that foster family was my second chance and a life away from my drunk abusive mother, because of being placed back in the home, my mother went on later to try and shoot and stab me at 15 years old, I caught a ride with two people, they took me to a house and a man raped me, pregnant after that, gave birth to a baby girl, that I'm now searching for, I sure wish I didn't feel like I had to test that family with my lie I could have saved my self a whole lot of pain. Anyway, just from my experience, I would say your daughter is wanting to please you and test your love, who knows she may have been doing the same thing I did, doing what she was taught, just seeing if you hang in there with her. Sorry for saying way too much stuff. Sometimes kids test you, to see if you hang in there with them. Best wishes, brandy jmo

[jewelewis]

My daughter is 7 years old and has a friend who is NOT adopted and lies constantly. It is crazy lies too. She told her mom,"a nurse came to out school today and tested for lice. But dont worry I only had one." My friend took her to the health department to see what to do about it. The little girl finally broke down and said,"its a lie its all a lie." She didnt have lice she was fine she just made that all up. She says things like that all the time. She doesnt have a reason not to trust her parents they are good patient parents. My point is that it may have alot to do with being adopted and her history but it could also be her age. Praise her when she tells the truth and let her know when you know she is lying. My grandma always tells me not to set a child up to lie. If you know the truth dont ask them to see if they lie. Just tell them you know the truth. Pick you battles and know that kids sometimes lie adopted or not.

[lucyjoy]

Bio kids can also suffer from attachment disorder. Mother's illness early in life, seperation from mom due to premature birth, and chronic ear infections or other painful illnesses in children during the early years of ife can cause attachment disorder. The child's pain is not answered by the parent(sonetimes no matter what the parent does the pain remains) interferes with the wiring of the brain in the areas of cause/effect and trust.

There are other reasons kids lie, just wanted to point that out.

[Cipher Girl]

Our 12 yo foster son lied a lot when he first came to stay with us. After 2 months, he is lying a lot less. Because of the abuse in his background, I personally think he lies because he wants to please us and is afraid of getting hurt if the truth would not please us. He also lies and makes up stories to make himself seem important. Basically I ignore the obvious lies and continue the conversation as if he had not said them. Gradually he is starting to say the truth more and lies less.

Also a lot of his lies consist of acting like he has done something, such as flying in an airplane, etc, when it is obvious he has never done it. We recently went to visit my father-in-law when he had a serious illness. We had to travel by plane and my foster son started telling us about all of the plane trips that he has been on (but really hasn't since he really had no idea of what a plane ride is like). We ignored all of these stories and started telling him what his first flight would be like. He then started telling us that he was very excited about getting to fly on an airplane for the first time. A couple of times before the flight, he would start with pretending to have been on an airplane before, but we ignored the stories.

For my foster son, getting on an aircraft and flying was very theraputic. He had told us that his mother's abusive boyfriend was afraid of flying. I told him that everyone is afraid of something, even bullies. Now, he knows that he has done something that his abuser is afraid of. I think this will help his self-confidence. I think that part of his making up stories is to try to feel important.

[scrapbookgirl33]

Sounds like your foster son is very lucky to have you as his family. Ignoring his obvious lies is a good idea.

I think we had a break-through last night. Our 7 yr old adopted daughter was allowed to play video games and was told to quit after "dying" 3 times (it's Mario), then she had to go to bed. Her brother had already gone to bed for not sharing. Several minutes went by and she still wasn't upstairs, so I called down and told her she should be finished and to head upstairs. When she got up to her room, I was getting her bed ready and I said "What took you so long?" And she said that she was getting some things put away. I said "I bet you played more than 3 times, didn't you?" She started to say "no," but changed and said "yes, I forgot." I nonchalantly said "I bet you didn't really forget - it was just too much fun to stop, wasn't it?" And she said "yes..." (very hesitant like she was going to be in trouble) and I just went on to say "Time for bed."

It was obvious she was afraid to tell the truth but did it anyway! That's a real step for her, I think.