[79nic]

Hey everyone,

OK, look... most of us know that there have been some hurt feelings and some disagreements on this forum lately. A lot of it comes from people "venting" and then other people getting upset at something that was said in the vent. Other times it's people expressing a difference of opinion in a not-so-nice way.

I totally understand the need to vent... many of you have seen me do it myself.
And I also understand the differences in opinions, and don't want to squelch that.

But there's always a way to express emotions and differing opinions without being disrespectful.


So this thread is an attempt to make something positive come of it all.

I thought maybe we could share ideas about how to keep our vents respectful. And also what makes us feel disrespected, too--so that maybe we can avoid those things.

Anyone in?

[79nic]

I'll start...

For anyone who doesn't know, I'm a birthmother.

Ok.

One thing I love is when adoptees and aparents take the time to actually read threads in the birthparent forums, and even offer support and advice. There are several members here who are GREAT at that: spaypets, Regina, Plareb, Amom2two, ermiller, sugarbaby'smommy, Leigh.... the list goes on. (And I'm sorry to those of you I did not name personally, it is 2 am here and I'm fuzzy-headed --someone else feel free to pick up the list where I left off.)

One thing I don't like is when a potential birthmother changes her mind, and people list a bunch of reasons why she won't make a good parent. Personally I find this judgmental. I have NO PROBLEM with p-aparents expressing hurt and disappointment and anger at the unfairness of the world and heart-break. But to suggest that a woman won't make a good mom because...

she made an adoption plan to begin with, so she couldn't possibly be a good mom or she wouldn't have even considered it;

or she didn't see the baby post-birth, so she must not be that interested in it;

or she flip-flopped on what to do several times;

etc.

is just really hurtful.

The reason it's hurtful is that, first, it's assumptive: if a p-birthmom doesn't see the baby after birth, so what? That doesn't mean she's not interested... it might be the only way she can protect her heart. Or maybe she's choosing not to see the baby so that she CAN think logically, rather than with her emotions, about whether to parent or place. We just don't know, unless WE are that p-bmom. Also, I find it hurtful because it negates the fact that people can change. I was not a very good person when I got pregnant (my judgment of myself), but I changed during the pregnancy. If it could happen to me, I believe that p-bmoms who might have been living a detrimental lifestyle pre-birth could, in fact, change post-birth. Maybe the birth of her child is the wakeup call she needs to turn things around....

So to recap: expressing hurt and anger and frustration is not offensive. Suggesting that the child would definitely be better off with the aparents is hurtful.

Anyone else?

Nicole

[Support2Adopt]

Originally posted by 79nic
I'll start...

For anyone who doesn't know, I'm a birthmother.

So to recap: expressing hurt and anger and frustration is not offensive. Suggesting that the child would definitely be better off with the aparents is hurtful.



Nicole

Nicole,
Thank you for your post which comes straight from your heart. I can certainly see where you're coming from and totally respect it.
Now, let me offer you a scenario and I would love to hear your feelings on this.
A potential Birthmother makes an adoption plan as soon as she knows she's pregnant. When it comes time for the baby to be born, she has convinced one of the possible Birthfathers that he is the "only" one who could have fathered the child. She makes it clear to the potential adoptive parents that she doesn't want to keep the baby.
Guess what, the potential Birthfather's family steps up to the plate thinking that he "must" be the Father and offers the potential Birthmother to move in with them and become part of the family. She never devuleges that there could be another Birthfather.
She doesn't want to work and her family can't support her, so she agrees to move in with the potential Birthfather's family and pretend that the baby is absolutely his, even though she slept with someone else during the timeframe she could have become pregnant.
She chooses to abort the adoption and following does nothing but complain how the baby kept her up all night.
Now, she never wanted the baby and only kept the baby so she wouldn't have to work as the potential Birthfather's family said they would take care of her and the baby.
Please know there is no disrespect inteneded, but in this scenario, I think the APs would have been the best as the potenatil Birthmother only kept the baby so she could be financially taken care of. IMHO, not a good reason to become a parent.
JJ

[HappyMomAnna]

I have a lot of feelings too about what others chose to say and how they decide to say it.... I have issues with being told that I must respect a persons right to have feelings but should not have my own....

I have been told that making an adoption plan and having a baby who dies before the baby is placed means the mother cannot call herself a birthmom.... just a mom who's baby died. Not a mother who chooses to place a baby... The death of the baby means that the woman simply is not permitted to know what being a birthmom is--and therefore no right to identify with birthmoms or call herself one.... or feel the needs for support the same as any other mother who comes to the place in her heart that knowing adoption is the best thing she can do --deserves....

I have a problem with the fact that I am expected to always honor birthmothers no matter what--when my adopted children were abused and drug addicted at birth. I have a problem with being told my children should be given all the goory details of how they became my children...and yet told they were loved by the person who abused them...Not all birthmothers choose to place and not all birthmothers deserve honor...and sometimes the idea of an open adoption is crazy....but, majority rules and because there are many respecful birthmothers here the idea that some of us would not respect ONE birthmother is a crime.

I have a problem with the idea that EVERY adopted child should or will search--and that every single birthmother is awaiting to be found... When I know too many adoptees who do not want to search and too many other adoptees who do and never find.... It is just not a given that every child will look--or that every birthmother wants to be found...If this were the case reunions would be expected by every person involved in adoption....and the real truth is that finding is not always the reality.

I have a problem when people assume I wanted to adopt because I could not give birth.... and that adoptive parents only wish to fill a need and have children...That is simply not always true--and there actually are people who adopt just in order to give a child a chance to have someone to call mom and dad.

I have a problem when I am posting from a persepctive of but a small side of adoption and someone from the otherside thinks that because they were not included--or not mentioned that I am slapping them in the face... I am sorry but my posts are always too long already so including the triad in my every thought would make my posts a book...


I don't mind when someone PM's me because I hurt their feelings or said something that don't agree with... I don't mind when someone point out to me that the way I said something might have hurt them--I have a problem when an entire thread is made based on the missuse of a small word and taken out of context and not allowed to be defended based on the context the word and my personal situation applied. Goodness... In our house we have two children from the same birthmother---she is OUR Birthmother.... I have plural children and I will use this phrase as it applies to this situation I am sure again... Educating the fourm in proper respect is one thing--refusal to accept terms that are used for one situation are not crimes.

I have a problem with people who Foster to Adopt and then cry because a child is reunited with the biological family--Foster care is supposed to be about helping families in crisis not finding a child to adopt. I have a problem with people who choose to Foster because they think it is a good way to get a newborn...without a big cost...

I have a problem with Foster parents who choose to split up siblings because the other one is too old--and who work hard to find a way to split them up.... I have a problem with people who say that stright adoption from the Foster Care system is a bad idea because you don't know if the child will 'Fit' into your family?

I have a problem with people who have little children in their home thinking that adopting a child is just like getting a new pet and eventually everything will be just fine....HUH? Wait till your young children are older---there will still be children looking for families...

I have a problem with people who think adopting from foster care is about the system finding children FOR them when in truth the system is only looking for Families for the child....

I have a problem with people who ask the question: "Is adoption a good thing?" Ask my uncle Eddie--he waited his whole life for his parents to find him and adopt him....they never came...I think adoption was a good thing to him...it would have been nice for someone to be in his side of the church at his wedding.......

[ingodshands]

"I have a problem with Foster parents who choose to split up siblings because the other one is too old--and who work hard to find a way to split them up...."

This happened in my family. I wish it didn't happen anywhere in the world. I had three siblings when my mother left, a few months later, I had one. This is not nice. I agree, that siblings should be fostered together. We already lost our parents, we do not want to lose our siblings too.

"I have a problem with people who say that stright adoption from the Foster Care system is a bad idea because you don't know if the child will 'Fit' into your family?"

I agree.

"I have a problem with people who think adopting from foster care is about the system finding children FOR them when in truth the system is only looking for Families for the child...."

Again, I agree. Social services are looking for families for foster children, usually in emergency situations, not for a perspective adoption option.

"I have a problem when people assume I wanted to adopt because I could not give birth.... and that adoptive parents only wish to fill a need and have children...That is simply not always true--and there actually are people who adopt just in order to give a child a chance to have someone to call mom and dad."

That is really lovely. How nice for a baby/child to be adopted by parents that can have their own children, but choose to give a child a secure, happy life. Priceless.

"I have a problem with people who ask the question: "Is adoption a good thing?" Ask my uncle Eddie--he waited his whole life for his parents to find him and adopt him....they never came...I think adoption was a good thing to him...it would have been nice for someone to be in his side of the church at his wedding......."

Yes, its a good thing. Maybe I should ask my siblings, the ones I didnt grow up with, but were with the first few years of our lives. Would they have preferred to have been placed together, with all their siblings, into a loving adoptive family, with a mum and dad, or how it was, all split up, placed with different and numerous foster placements, I know which one they would choose.

I'm not in any way condoning foster carers, because without these, there would be many more children in children homes. But I do think the adoption option is best.

Collette

[echaos]

I hate when people assume that my son and I have been wounded by our adoptions and that our refusal to grieve is because we are in denial.

We need to respect that each persons feelings are their own and that my perception is my reality. We are not made from cookie cutters and even 2 people who go through the exact same experience will come away from it with different perspectives.


So my suggestion to help keep the threads respectful is

Don't make broad stroke statements like "All adoptees must grieve" or "all birth mothers are young poor teenagers" or "all foster babies are born drug addicted" etc....

[billysmommy]

"I hate when people assume that my son and I have been wounded by our adoptions and that our refusal to grieve is because we are in denial. "

AMEN!

[taggrr2]

Here's what troubles me, FWIW.

I sense to some that aparents can never do enough.

If they don't keep their agreement, obviously that's wrong.

If they do keep their agreement, they haven't gone above and beyond expectations.

If they go above and beyond expectations, now more letters, more pictures, alone time or more intimate contact with bchild is desired.

If at any time they are uncomfortable and say no or take a break they are painted as bad guys trying to inch bps out of their life due to some neuroses.

To some extent aps are the recipients of resentment and anger due to no fault or decision of their own but projected disappointment of a bp.

"Campaigns" are launched to decrease the initial stability of adoptive families with little (albeit some from fairminded folks) thought to reciprocal protection of these families during this time.

All this can and has been openly shared on this forum with the SUPPORT of understanding aparents.

OTOH, aparents are not allowed to:

Make a judgment that a particular bp is perhaps not the best situation for a child, before a judge ultimately affirms that judgment.

Vent displeasure at the injustice of the required monetary aspect of adoption

Be given just a few moments of joy without word choice being picked apart

Grieve a failed placement other than in a prescribed way.

My advice to keep things respectful: not every opinion HAS to be spoken, sometimes it IS okay to just be silent and let things go.

I'm sorry if this sounds snarky or angry I'm just feeling very beat down once again.

[Volfe]

Good idea Nicole:

How about some constructive complaints:

I will not quote any posts so as to not put anyone on the defensive. And as I am not the secure friendly person I'd like to be, I do not want to feel like i'm tossing stones from a glass house

Two things that have bugged me are:

"My children's bp's are great! They love their children but some out there just like to cause trouble, or stall just to be mean and create more bills for us, or really wouldn't make good parents like adoptive parents would"

If you are upset by the actions of people you don't know just say something non-judgemental to the effect of, Gosh that really torques me off that my friends are going through that!" or "Goodness, I feel like they are doing it to be mean (but leave room for a differing opinion that might suggest they are not)." Please refrain from painting birth parents with a broad brush.

And that leads to "I know we all have our own opinions but why do they think they need to post it here? Why can't they keep it to themselves? Why do they need to disagree with me and I can't manage to just ignore that which i don't agree with/ or at least read their reply and realize, hey, they have a point?!"

My first impulse is to just leave that one with a touche' but yanno... I like to hear from the voice of reason when i'm being unreasonable. I like to hear other opinions. (I don't really, when i'm angry but later... I do).

I have taken a lashing many a time. I only learn from people who do not agree with me. If they do agree with me, they aren't giving me new information are they.
There is as big a variety of aps and bps and fps as there are people... But these forums are here as a safe place to lean on friends or others in need, to get advice, to enjoy hearing from friends...

Oh well. I tried.

Maia

[spaypets]

First, thanks Nic for grouping me with some amazing people.

I have to admit, many times I read (or participate) in a thread where a poster is complaining "I came here for support and I've been attacked." Many times, I don't see the attack--I see thoughtful disagreement and discussion, but apparently I have a higher threshhold for disagreement than other people (in my family you have three people you get five opinions!).

Not to long ago a poster asked for others' opinions--the thread was titled as a question and she felt attacked when I apparently gave an answer she didn't want to hear.

I consider attacks name calling. I don't consider disagreement over situations or plans attacks.

For the record, I have learned a lot on these threads--from adoptees I came to understand issues of identity and the importance of honesty. From birth parents I came to understand the ongoing pain following placement. Much of my understanding has come after highly spirited, sometimes painful discussions (ok, arguments).

I have some opinions that I have learned to keep to myself--expressing them serves no useful purpose and hurts people's feelings. So I shut up (which is tough). These forums have a culture, and when I'm here I try to acclimate to that culture--you can call it political correctness--I actually consider it etiquette.

[taggrr2]

spay,

Thank you. You said it better than I did and that was my point. SOMETIMES things will just serve no useful purpose so why is it necessary to comment?

[Volfe]

Originally posted by taggrr2
spay,

Thank you. You said it better than I did and that was my point. SOMETIMES things will just serve no useful purpose so why is it necessary to comment?

So commenting in judgement on people we don't know, or disrespectful mentions of situations we are not privy too should not be commented on, since it serves no purpose.

Respectful disagreement does serve a purpose.

I agree.

Maia

[taggrr2]

I think you overinterpreted. Of course, this is a forum for open discussion and comment by anyone, that goes without saying. I deliberately put SOMETIMES in caps. SOMETIMES comments here serve no useful purpose and unnecessarily cause ill will when things could just as well been left alone. This is not a broad brush. I think we can all use our judgment about when a situation is going to be helped with our comment or it will be counterproductive.

[Cheryl62]

Thanks for starting this thread Nicole. And thanks for such a thoughtful reply Spaypets... I obviously can't begin to speak for all adoptees, and maybe not even for many, but for what it's worth, these are my thoughts.

I really valued this forum for many things. For what it taught me and made me think about in the early days of wondering whether to search for my birthfamily. For the friendships I've gained here. And for the opportunity to give and receive support in what were some of the highest highs, and lowest lows.

One of the things I've found most valuable was the sharing of views across the triad. I've learned more from reading posts by adoptive parents and from birthparents than I probably have from other adoptees, in many ways. It has given me insight into my parents (whom I am very blessed to have been given), and into my birthmother.

On the downside.... yes, disagreements can become petty, or fierce and painful. And when dealing with such sensitive emotions that are involved in adoption, the hurts felt can be intense. I agree we all could be more aware of how we speak, why, and when. I wouldn't agree that we should withhold respectfully shared views just because we disagree though. I've learned more from being disagreed with gently than I could have gained from blind support.

But as an adoptee, I often feel caught in the middle. In "real life" between my wish to have a relationship with my birthmother, and the strong hope never to cause my mom any pain or fear. Here on the forums, between thinking adoption is a good thing that has served to give me a wonderful life and family, and the knowledge that that came at the expense of someone else's pain. Maybe there's some guilt involved..that my happiness, and my parents' came to be as part of a very painful and traumatic period in my birthmother's life - and one that has had lasting effects for 42 years. Sometimes I wonder if those feelings make me, at least, feel protective of birthmothers on this forum who I see in pain? (The abuse cases one sees on the foster care threads are a different matter altogether - as a mom they make me sick and very sad.) Rambling, probably...

I'd like to say one other thing. And that is, just like in divorce, perhaps it's not a great idea to be critical of an ex because the kids can interpret this as criticism of them, since, after all, they share DNA with this other parent -- well, sometimes I think there are adoptees who feel this way about their birthfamily. I think if my mom were overly critical or harsh about the choices or life my b-mom made for herself, it would hurt me at some level -- because there is this link, and because what she has become could not have been unaffected by my very existence. Would add to the guilt maybe? I dunno...

Of course, nor would I enjoy hearing criticism of my a-mom from my b-mom, just to be clear. Very conflicted feelings, I guess...probably par for the course on all sides, where adoption is concerned!

I have no idea if that made any sense...sorry if it didn't!

[79nic]

JJ,

Obviously there are times when adoptive parents would be better parents than bios.

I work for children in the foster care system. I see, on a daily basis, those times.

But here's the thing.... In your above scenario, you are claiming to KNOW why the p-birthmother made an adoption plan.

No one really knows why a woman initially considers adoption, except (and sometimes not even) that woman herself.

Now... if someone here has been in a failed match, and later found out for a fact that the child was abused or neglected, at that point I'd have no problem with the aparent saying, "The baby would have been better with me."

But honestly... if you don't have contact with the p-birthmother after she decides to parent, and you never hear anything from her again, how do you know? How do you know she'll be a bad parent?

Anyway, this thread is getting sidetracked.

This wasn't supposed to be about our opinions. It was supposed to be about HOW to express opinions respectfully, and WHEN to maybe just keep our opinions to ourselves (or in a pm).

All I'm saying is that for me personally, it hurts to see people claim a p-bmother is not the best parent for a child, especially when we really can't know that p-birthmother's thoughts, heart, and soul. So IMO, if you feel an adoptive parent would be better for the child (and you have a right to that opinion), it's better to keep it to yourself, or vent about it in a pm to a friend.

Am I making this clear?

This isn't supposed to be place where we voice all our opinions... it's supposed to be a place where we can talk about how to talk respectfully.

It's like when I fight with my hubby. Let's say he forgets it's our anniversary. I have two choices: I can tell him "You're a no-good low-life who doesn't care about me at all" (a judgment); or I can say "Honey, it hurt me that you forgot our anniversary, it really makes me feel unloved and unappreciated."

In statement one, the focus is on HIM. In statement two, the focus is on ME.

THAT is what I am asking of people. When you vent, please keep the focus on yourself... use "I" statements. Don't lash out at others.

If you must talk about your worry over a failed-match baby going home with the bio mom, don't say "Bmom never even saw the baby, she's only 17, she has no money, she can't be as good a parent as me;" say, "I am really worried about the baby, and I am really sad the baby's not coming home with me, I know I'd be a good parent." Statement one: judgment of someone else (can be offensive); statement two: judgment of yourself (non-offensive).

------------------------

Now.... there are times we need other people's advice and objectivity. For example:

I was recently considering closing my adoption. A few aparents here came to my thread and said (paraphrasing), "Ya know Nicole, it's not OK to do that. You have an agreement in place with Marie's aparents and Marie, and you need to honor it."

Thank God for those voices. The voices of reason.

But they were able to do it in a non-offensive way. They didn't say, "Oh god, so it's OK if a bmom closes an adoption, and not aparents? You are the most selfish person. I can't believe you'd even consider this. You're a horrible birthmom."

No.... they just stated how it would make them feel ("I" statements) if they were Marie's aparents. They didn't make derogatory statements about me.


That's all I'm suggesting here. Use "I" statements. If you need to call someone on a behavior/idea/thought, use "I" statements. Be gentle.

(End of spiel.)