[heidi6409]

Ok, so I am fairly new to having siblings close in age. I have taken care of other siblings and my nephews, who are 14 mos. apart. So, I have seen sibling rivalry. But the two little girls we were placed with two weeks ago take it to the max. They were neglected and had to fend for themselves, along with their older sister who is 5.

So, the three girls were initially placed with a foster parent who after two weeks asked to have the two younger kids removed because of non-stop fighting between the 5 yo and the 4 yo. At one point the oldest one pushed A to the ground and was kicking her. So, I said yes to the two girls, ages 2 and 4. They are SO independent and they fight over everything. For instance: today they were going outside and so B held the door open for A. A yelled at B for not letting her open the door herself! I ask B to go wash her hands and A will try to rush in first to get on the stool, then it's a shoving match. I calmly pluck A off the stool and tell her firmly to wait her turn because i asked B to go wash her hands. I have emphasized that we take turns and talk things out. I have given them words to help them talk about things. Like: it makes me upset that you grabbed this toy I was playing with. I want it back. I will give you a turn. We don't grab the toy, we ask for a turn in a minute.

Another one: we were at the doctors office and B had to use the bathroom. We go in and she pees. Well, it's one of those toilets that are elongated and there's no way she can balance on it and grab tp. So, I tell her I will get her the tp. She starts screaming that she wants to get it. I explain that it's too far away for her to get without falling in. She starts screaming again. So, I grab some tp and hand it to her for her to wipe. I figure she's still getting to be independent and wipe herself. But, now she inconsolable because she didn't get to do it herself. So, then I have to wipe a screaming tantruming child, pull up her pants (after she throws herself to the bathroom floor), wash her hands and carry her screaming down the hall at the doctors office. Ugh. It goes on and on! I do so much explaining and talking with them. I've been laying down the law, what I say goes. It's helping them to know I am serious when I ask them to do something. They are learning to listen, but it gets old being the mediator. I have to keep them apart doing separate activities sometimes to get a break. I know they have been made to parent themselves and each other and it shows. Anyone had kids that were constantly at each other for every little thing? Any other tips, suggestions?

[Fostermom22]

Honestly I would let them try to work out some of the problems on their own, as long as it doesn't get physical where someone is getting hurt. Kids need those skills, even at my 3 yo pre-k the kids have to work it out on their own and they are encouraged to start using words for feelings, but if B is only 2, I think that's young to "talk" about what is happening.

Good Luck

[rmsept81]

We had this happen with our 3 girls to some degree. They wanted to prove to me they were the "best" one. One always felt left out or that they were being bossed around. Now the girls were older but some of the following might help:

1) one on one time with you. Make them feel important in separate but equal ways
2) staggering activities so as not to give them a chance to fight. Bedtime, hand washing.
3) while it is important for them to learn things on their own you may also want to do some things for them. This will show that you are in charge and that they don't have to fend for themselves in your home.

In our house the major rule is keep your hands to yourself. We don't allow horseplay or pretend shoving. They get double the punishment for breaking this rule-everytime. So if they can't keep their hands off eachother and it's becoming a problem this may help.

Sounds like you are doing a good job of being consistent and with siblings like this it is key.

[Forevernmyheart]

I am so glad you started this thread. I have a 7 and 4yr old that also fight constantly. It can be so frustrating. They fight over every little thing.

[JLMom]

I think its pretty normal. My two (one bio & one fs) are 7 months apart & we see pretty much everything you mentioned. Just be consistent & hopefully they will grow out of some of it.

[farmchick]

One trick I like is to alternate "days to be first" - a friend suggested even getting a magnetic picture frame for the fridge and putting the child's photo in it. On Monday it is Y's chance to be first. On Tuesday her sister's - so that means Y gets to hold the door, use the bathroom first, take the first cookie, etc... Next day it rotates.

[OakShannon]

Originally Posted by farmchick

One trick I like is to alternate "days to be first" - a friend suggested even getting a magnetic picture frame for the fridge and putting the child's photo in it. On Monday it is Y's chance to be first. On Tuesday her sister's - so that means Y gets to hold the door, use the bathroom first, take the first cookie, etc... Next day it rotates.

I think this is a great idea. Especially for the 4-year-old. It's really good to give them language. "Can I have a turn when you're done?" "I don't like that." etc. But kids that age are still impulsive and aren't great at empathy - so while you keep talking about language and the other child's feelings, I would also focus on some black and white rules for managing their behavior. I took a parenting class where the instructor said that 4-year-olds are so verbal that we often assume that they understand more than they really do - especially about empathizing with someone else's feelings or perspective. What usually works well for them are consistent rules. The rule is: Hands To Yourself. Or "Today is A's turn to be first." If a whole day seems like more than they can stand not to be first, you could switch after lunch.

[crick]

Keep in mind your key fact - "They were neglected and had to fend for themselves". Repeat it to yourself over and over and over.

The most competitive battle of wills out of fear for survival is so challenging!!

Be consistent in your teachings and remind yourself this is not just "normal" sibling rivalry but likely all they know and truly don't know that you are going to care for them or can be depended on. It's going to take time and a very stable firm routine. So if that's what you are doing, then keep at it.

My kids were 2,3,4 & 5 when they arrived and the 4 & 5 year olds exhausted me to no ends with their battles for independence not only with me, but with each other. The younger ones then fed off of that. It's hard and while "normal" for kids coming out of a situation of neglect, it's important to teach them how to let go of the control, be in charge, and teach them to be loving towards each other. My kids were protective of each other with me, and adults in general, but with just the 4 of them? lol. Uh uh. That had to be taught.

They are now 11, 12, 14 & 15 and while they of course bicker and are still competitive with each other, their motivations are completely different. It's not a matter of survival now and they actually protect each other because they love each other.

Play the games, get your breaks, be consistent and praise them heavily for the simplest things they do right. I felt almost dumb telling my kids "Oh! Look! J let T play with his train and isn't upset about sharing! How wonderful is that!??" Clapping, and giving J a sticker or a marble (marble jars are great at this age) - really making a big deal out of it. But it helped...because they really need to learn to respond to positive things.

Hang in there!

[blueflower]

I find that giving choices works sometimes. This works well for getting our 4 year old to use the potty before bed. Since I am more okay with having to wash sheets if I know it is going to happen I can give him the following choice at night when he fights the bedtime routine step of using the potty, "Okay, it is your choice. Do you want to pee in the potty now or in bed later?" A not so extreme example would be, "Do you want to brush your teeth first or use the potty first?" Then the other person gets to do the non-chosen thing first. Or, "Do you want me to fold the toilet paper or do you want to do it?" If they argue, just repeat the question. Notice that either way, you were the one getting the TP; them getting it was not an option but was never mentioned. After a few times you may have to say, "Now, either you can choose or I'll choose for you. So I'll ask one last time, Do you want A or B?" It only took a few times before our kids figured out that I would choose for them, and not always how they would choose.

This also gives them a sense of being in control. And, as in the pee in bed question, a chance to think through their choice and what it means.

We also make the person who pushed to be first (an issue at our house and always the same guilty party) go last.

Another rule, made out necessity: if you can't share then you don't get it. As in, if you are not willing to share that really large chair with the other child, then you automatically don't get it and they do. Yes, it result in a , but they learned to share that chair.

[CaddoRose]

Another idea is to give them a task to do that must be done together without fighting in order to get the reward.So maybe they need to put away shoes and you tell them that child 1 will take the shoes into the room and child 2 will open the door. If they do this together without fussing, they both get a treat. If either one causes a fuss, no treat. Constantly reward the good/preferred behavior.

The other idea is to reward the cild who follows directions witout fussing with the other one. If child 1 picks upthe shoes and child 2 attempts to get them, and child 1 doesn't engage in fussing too, ten child 1 gets the treat.

[heidi6409]

Thanks for the replies

Crick:

The most competitive battle of wills out of fear for survival is so challenging!!

This is so true!

Speaking of routine, A and B are told the schedule every day, and A really pays attention and can repeat it. I go over it every day. First we eat breakfast, then we play. Then we have snack, then we play. Then we have lunch, and nap. etc etc. A week ago if I said nap B would fall to the ground screaming. Now, I repeat the schedule and she's ok with it. I tell her every day we will take a nap, so get used to it And she is!

farmchick: great idea, I will use it.

It's taken me all morning to write this because they keep me so busy!! LOL.

[Howdy]

I don't really know anything about siblings (other than having been one), so I don't know if this works, but I read in a parenting book that it helps to require the kids to agree in order to get a reward, such as, if they both agree on the movie, they get to watch that movie.

[Biblemom]

My FD left last night, but for the last 8 months I have had 5 children ages 5-9. We have had a lot of competition issues here too. You have gotten a lot of great advice here. I would add that, it is ok to let kids learn they can't do something. As far as the TP example goes, I would have let my kiddo learn the hard way. When they finally realize they can't reach, or fall into the toilet (yes, I know that is gross) then have them repeat "can you please help me?". Kids need to learn that it is safe to ask for help. It will take a while for them to understand that since it has never been an option for them. Find multiple times during the day to have them ask that as appropriate. When kids are fighting over getting out the door first etc, the kid that fusses, goes last. Period. No second chances on that one.

[smit8211]

Originally Posted by heidi6409

Ok, so I am fairly new to having siblings close in age. I have taken care of other siblings and my nephews, who are 14 mos. apart. So, I have seen sibling rivalry. But the two little girls we were placed with two weeks ago take it to the max. They were neglected and had to fend for themselves, along with their older sister who is 5.

So, the three girls were initially placed with a foster parent who after two weeks asked to have the two younger kids removed because of non-stop fighting between the 5 yo and the 4 yo. At one point the oldest one pushed A to the ground and was kicking her. So, I said yes to the two girls, ages 2 and 4. They are SO independent and they fight over everything. For instance: today they were going outside and so B held the door open for A. A yelled at B for not letting her open the door herself! I ask B to go wash her hands and A will try to rush in first to get on the stool, then it's a shoving match. I calmly pluck A off the stool and tell her firmly to wait her turn because i asked B to go wash her hands. I have emphasized that we take turns and talk things out. I have given them words to help them talk about things. Like: it makes me upset that you grabbed this toy I was playing with. I want it back. I will give you a turn. We don't grab the toy, we ask for a turn in a minute.

Another one: we were at the doctors office and B had to use the bathroom. We go in and she pees. Well, it's one of those toilets that are elongated and there's no way she can balance on it and grab tp. So, I tell her I will get her the tp. She starts screaming that she wants to get it. I explain that it's too far away for her to get without falling in. She starts screaming again. So, I grab some tp and hand it to her for her to wipe. I figure she's still getting to be independent and wipe herself. But, now she inconsolable because she didn't get to do it herself. So, then I have to wipe a screaming tantruming child, pull up her pants (after she throws herself to the bathroom floor), wash her hands and carry her screaming down the hall at the doctors office. Ugh. It goes on and on! I do so much explaining and talking with them. I've been laying down the law, what I say goes. It's helping them to know I am serious when I ask them to do something. They are learning to listen, but it gets old being the mediator. I have to keep them apart doing separate activities sometimes to get a break. I know they have been made to parent themselves and each other and it shows. Anyone had kids that were constantly at each other for every little thing? Any other tips, suggestions?

I had to giggle as I read this. Mainly because I know exactly what you are going through. Let me reassure you that this is perfectly normal behaviour for siblings of that age (2 & 4) especially girls. I actually have daughters that exact age (biological). They are healthy happy girls, but very competitive. It sounds like your 2 year old is strong willed (like mine). My suggestion is to let them "work it out" unless it gets too physical. Keep teaching them words to express their feelings & wants. Incorporate time out for hitting & such. Reward the behaviour that you want to see more often! This goes a longgg way. And the reward could just be something like you saying "It makes me so proud of you when you wait patiently!! You made me so happy!" When you are doing activities with them, give them each a "job" so they focus on that instead of what the other is doing...
I know how frustrating it can get but hang in there! There will be good days & bad days lol. Good luck!

[wendy_bird23]

Try teaching them to find a solution/come to a compromise on their own. This is going to take awhile, probably a long while, but eventually it will pay off.

To start: State the problem (and let them each tell you their side of the story if they wish) then ask them for a solution. ie "It sounds like you both want to be first washing hands. How can we solve this problem?" if they can't think of a solution throw out 2 or 3 and let them choose: "I'll give you 3 ideas: 1) you could agree that one of you could go first this time and the other gets to be first next time. 2) we could flip a coin and see who goes first. 3) we could do Eenie-meenie-minie-mo to see who goes first." If they can't agree on a solution tell them they have 1 more minute to decide themselves or you will have to choose for them. After using this technique constantly they will start to be able to come up with solutions when prompted and eventually will be able to come up with a solution without you having to step in.

My other suggestion is give them power whenever possible by giving them choices to make. Limit choices to acceptable answers though by being specific "Do you want to wear your blue shirt or you purple shirt?" not "What do you want to wear?" (asking open ended questions like this is just setting yourself up for an argument about the appropriateness of certain choices).

Also agree with PP's idea of giving them days to be first. Anything you can do to prevent problems is better than having to solve them when they arise. Growing up we rotated "Kid of the day". the Kid of the day got to be first, make any kid decisions (what music to listen to, movie to watch, bedtime song/book, meal choices, etc.), and was in charge of the extra responsibilities (setting table, putting away toys, folding laundry, etc -or assisting with these things if too little to do on their own). It really helps avoid arguments and adding the responsibility of being the helper of the day as well as the chooser of the kept the kid of the day from bragging too much on their day, and gave the others a reason to enjoy their day off as well as their day on.