[myForeverkids3]

The kids CASA, CW, therapist and dad's attorney all came up with this bright idea to have a counseling session with the kids (6 yr olds) and have dad watch from the observation room . The therapist would talk with the kids about being adopted. The idea is that he would hear them say they want to be adopted and voluntarily sign the TPR. (I am not convinced that he even cares what the kids want)
The TPR hearing is Oct 28th!! I am wondering why they are feeling so pressed to have him sign rather than just waiting to the end of the month to terminate him. He admitted to everyone last month that he is still using cocaine daily! He has no job,lives with his mom and has only completed one thing on his service plan (since march 07). His lawyer says she has no defense for him and nothing to fight TPR with except "I still want my kids back."
I am worried about using the kids this way. They shouldn't have anything to do with convincing their dad to tpr. They wouldn't know he was watching/listening to the counseling session. Is that fair to them?? I am having a BIG problem with this. I would basically be lying to my kids. I wonder if the CW messed up on something and just discovered it?
And, I have always disagreed with asking FKs who are in an adoptive placement to say if they want to be adopted or not. UUURRRRR How can they be expected to answer a ? like that? Every child desires to be with their bparents to some degree. No child is 100% happy with their aparents either. What other options do they have anyway? They can't return home. Why do we give them the impression that they have a choice? They don't. We are going to be their parents and they're stuck with us! lol Quit asking if they're happy with us as if they could just go pick out another set of parents at Wal Mart or something!
Any input? Should I go against the crowd and refuse to bring the kids to the counseling session??

[Hadley2]

Needless to say, they are off their flippin' rockers and callously cruel to the children they are supposed to protect. It is certainly exploitative and unethical. Maybe illegal. At the least, the father's attorney is already guilty of misconduct and malpractice and should be reported to the bar.

I would jump over the cw's head immediately and make a complaint to the supervisor. If that fails, then the director of the agency. If that fails and even if it doesn't, I would also let the agency's own attorney in on it. That attorney might slap them down--he/she certainly should. I notice you didn't mention the agency's attorney; if that attorney is not involved, I would bet it is because the others know that he/she wouldn't be willing to play ball with such a stupid idea and might just get the father's attorney disciplined. So I would also let that person know what is in the wind before the others screw things up so badly that RU happens.

[greenrobin]

I don't have any advice for you, but I can tell you about our experiences with this.

The kids' dad is in prison. It was his desire to take their TPR to trial (as was their mother's). It was his attorney who convinced him that it was in the children's best interest to sign and irrevocable relinquishment. According to the attorney who tried the case, dad's attorney told him it was time to think about somebody other than himself.

If Mr. Attorney hadn't done that, it would have been a lot more stressful for all of us. It also gave dad a chance to be a good guy. At least in this.

We talked about adoption as a positive thing all of the time around here. I never asked the kids about wanting to be adopted, just acted like they did. I was completely surprised one day to hear Bubba singing to himself, "Oh, I want to be adopted, adopted, adopted, I want to be adopted by my mom and dad!" He was 5.

I never heard what happened in therapy, so it's entirely possible he'd been saying. Maybe your kids are too.

No, I don't think the kids should be used. But are they being used or are the cw and therapist just providing dad the opportunity to see things the way they really are? No matter what, the kids are not responsible for any choice he makes. And they should never know if he's allowed to listen in--that would be so wrong!

I pray you find a livable answer to this dilemma.

[hkolln]

I'd be worried if the kids 'know' he's watching that they may feel guilt later on about talking about wanting to be adopted. Normally kids tend to feel alot of that if they are not allowed to love both parent freely and talking about one over the other (IE you vs bioparents) may not be good for them. Because of what they say may change the course of everything they may feel like they caused it. Kids love their parents unconditionally...they don't care about the issues. I would make sure the kids are feeling pressured one way or the other to speak whatever. I'm not a counselor but I would get one if one is not involved in this situation. I'd hate for the kids later on down the road feel guilt that they steered their father to terminate his rights. Not that would be a bad thing as it would help them obtain permanency but they may feel guilty for doing it.

[Sdirector]

My soon to be daughter is older (12), but we had a similar circumstance.

Without getting too deep into what has been a very long story, her birthmother wanted her back. This, for many reasons, would not have been good. STB Daughter wanted us to adopt her (her bio half brother was adopted by us 12 years ago. This was at a time when the state was not involved in her life, so we had retained our own counsel to help bring this about.

We were denied full legal intervention in her case, which was a setback. I had a talk with her and asked her if this was really what she wanted, and she said that it was. I told her that if it was, perhaps her birthmother should hear it directly from her. She had told her GAL that this was what she wanted, and he had entered it into his report, but I told her that perhaps she should tell Bmother herself. She was petrified of this woman, and, well, you can imagine that this is all very complicated.

Not on her next every two week visit, but on the one after that, she told her. No prompting from anyone (as that would not have been right), "I want to be adopted by..."

Well, that set into motion a chain of events that resulted in her voluntarily terminating her parental rights. Of course, her GAL and most others concerned with the case said it would have happened anyways, but it did save us a HUGE amount of effort, and therefore money... money that would have been a serious hardship to come up with.

My understanding was that her lawyer also told her that she was doing the right thing (and probably told her that it would happen anyway). Think about it... someone with questionable mental issues thinks the kids should be with them, so they fight to that end. When she heard from the child what they wanted, well, it was all over. Not saying that this will happen in this instance, but it could certainly be an eye opener for the bdad.

Of course, it would have to happen carefully, and with all regard to the children's emotional health and safety, but it could be something good. It could also give bfather's lawyer the defense that she needs for him ("these kids are being manipulated), so legal counsel definitely has to be on board as to if this should happen, and what should be discussed.

Just my opinion, and I am sure that there are plenty of others...

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by Hadley2

Needless to say, they are off their flippin' rockers and callously cruel to the children they are supposed to protect. It is certainly exploitative and unethical. Maybe illegal. At the least, the father's attorney is already guilty of misconduct and malpractice and should be reported to the bar.

Can I just say a big AMEN!

[Hadley2]

good grief, the ends do not justify the means.

The first issue is the secrecy. A child of a mature age knowingly and willingly speaking to a parent about termination is a completely different thing from children of any age being used to manipulate a parent without their knowledge or consent. You, the cw, the casa, the other attorney, would all be complicit in creating the biggest, most toxic lie of these childrens' lives--that their father, all on his own, chose to terminate his relationship with them.
An attorney advising his client in his best interests, which may lie in termination to avoid prosecution or removals of future children, etc., is a completely different thing from an attorney colluding with the state to use trickery to manipulate a client to act against his own wishes. That is enough to get him sued and possibly enough to get him disbarred.

Secrecy is wrong. Secrecy is toxic emotionally and psychologically. If this happens and you are a part of it or know about it and do nothing, then you will be among those using your children to trick their parent and keeping a highly toxic secret from your own children. You will be hiding life-altering information from them for the rest of your life. Would you be able to do that? Because they will sense the presence of this secret, that there is something wrong involving them and their father. Sensing it and not knowing it will hurt them. Knowing the secret, if you or he--later--reveal it, will hurt them. There is NO WAY they will not be hurt by it.

The second issue is responsibility. Yes, the kids will feel guilt, of course they will because they will have caused the father to make a decision. If they weren't, why play the trick in the first place? To say that he made his own decision and they are not responsible is disingenuous--the whole point of using them is to push him past that critical line into relinquishment. Children aren't stupid. They understand that some things have a big effect on other people and that this would be one of those things.

Again, at the least I would contact the agency attorney directly and be sure he/she knows about this exploit if for no other reason than that it has the potential to blow the case out of the water.

[Yash]

I would definitely go over the CW's head on this one. I would go over everyone's head with this and get a new therapist. This is wrong on so many levels. I would contact the children's lawer ASAP.

[Dickons]

Wow, as an adoptee I would be absolutely devasted to find out as an adult that "I" was the reason I was placed for adoption...

Irregardless of any good reason the state has to TPR - "I" in my emotional mind would know "I" was the one who caused it - that guilt would eat me up for life and life is a very long time to live with that.

Let the state deal with any reason in court - do not make the child have this burden.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[DreamingAzure]

Wow...I'm surprised to see such a negative response to this. I'm not quite sure how to this is such a horrible cruel thing. For the kids it’s just another counseling session. Counseling seasons with children under the age of 10 are almost always viewed/observed by a 3rd party unknowingly, be it a SW, CW or foster parent.

I don't think that this automatically screams "coercion" of some kind. It might even do the biodad some good to hear the kids themselves say "I want to be adopted by XyZ" or "I would like to be adopted". And it might not make a bit of difference to him and he will be TPR'd at the end of the month. But it would save time and money for everyone if he did it voluntarily.

[Dickons]

Dreaming,

Secrets always come out and somewhere, somehow the child will find out that their words were the reason the dad voluntarily gave up his rights and did not continue fighting to retain custody even if it is a loosing battle - do not put this on the child - it is not fair.

No one should assume that a childs words at 5 will not come back to haunt him when he is an adult and actually understands the rammification of those words.

A child should not be party to something like this even if he has no knowledge his dad is watching...no way. For some adoptees we struggle to not go down the path of 'what was wrong with me that my parents gave me away' to have to also deal with this.

Regards,
Dickons

[onhazier]

Thank you, Dickons for making your points. I think you're correct from the perspective of the child. I also totally feel that having this "counseling" session is not a good thing.

[shadow riderer]

Originally Posted by DreamingAzure

Wow...I'm surprised to see such a negative response to this. I'm not quite sure how to this is such a horrible cruel thing. For the kids it’s just another counseling session. Counseling seasons with children under the age of 10 are almost always viewed/observed by a 3rd party unknowingly, be it a SW, CW or foster parent.

I don't think that this automatically screams "coercion" of some kind. It might even do the biodad some good to hear the kids themselves say "I want to be adopted by XyZ" or "I would like to be adopted". And it might not make a bit of difference to him and he will be TPR'd at the end of the month. But it would save time and money for everyone if he did it voluntarily.

Really? You can't see why this is negative? You don't see the effects this may have on the children in the future? What happens, someday, when the children decide they want to know their Birthfather, and he possibly tells them this little incedent is the reason he relinquished? It's not like they don't know who he is. A lot of adoptees do chose to find their birthparent, wanting to know answers.

It may very well do the bfather some good, but this isn't about doing the Bfather some good. It might also save time and money, but at what cost to the children's emotional health and well being in the future?

AS adoptees, we sometimes spend our entire lives wondering why our BPs were not able to raise us. We sometimes think it was because there was something wrong with us, even when logically, we know better. To find out someday that something "we" said was the reason a BP relinquished, even if it were in our best interest, would be a difficult thing to come to terms with. I'm sure I'm reading this all wrong, and you are not saying that saving time and money, at the expense of the children's future emotional health, is what's most important at the moment, because after all, the children wont know what's going on right now, not to mention the rights of the Bfather will be terminated in a few days anyway.

[o2b30again]

All I can really think to say is... Are you kidding me? My FD wrote a letter to the judge asking to be transfered to our school district because she was sick of driving 2 hours in the car 6 days per week. The judge got after the county workers for allowing her, at the age of 7, get involved in the case. OK so no one was listening and I felt that this was a healthy involvment only asking to be allowed to switch schools. I can't imagine what the judge would say if he found out the children were being "spied" on during a THERAPY session. Therapy is meant to be a safe place where the children can discuss anything and know that it is kept in THAT room. Our therapist ASKS permission from the children to share information with me and we are the adoptive parents.

If those children ever find out that their therapist, GAL, SW or even you broke their trust you are becoming exactly like the enviroment that they were removed from. The only way a child is going to begin to heal is to trust and if somehow they find out that any of you broke that you are all up a creek. I fear for the children that are involved here. Sounds like they only have their foster parents support.

On a side note....get a new therapist!!! For them to even think about going along with this is just crazy!!!

[DreamingAzure]

Originally Posted by Dickons

Secrets always come out and somewhere, somehow the child will find out that their words were the reason the dad voluntarily gave up his rights and did not continue fighting to retain custody even if it is a loosing battle - do not put this on the child - it is not fair.

I guess this is where I have to shake my head...no where in the OP did I read where this was going to be some giant secret. I think trauma is being read into it where no trauma truely exists. This 'tactic' if you want to call it that, has been used for decades within the SW and law enforcement field, and it's a very sucessful move. It is also not illegal, unprofessional or discipline worthy(I called lawyer friend who specializes in judicial ethics)
While I personally wouldn't bother to arrange something like this when TPR looks like a gimme and so close at hand, I also don't see it a horrible, traumatic, life altering event if handled correctly.