[Bassette]

If this is not the right place to post, can someone please tell me where I should post? Thanks.

My friend has been visited by CPS who state they were called because her apartment is "messy". They tried to manipulate her into allowing them in, without warrant, but she held firm and refused. They said they will back and I'm a bit confused on who said what but she (my friend) shares that she has been told they intend to take her baby.

Her husband is military though they rent private property. One of his superiors visited the apartment *after* my friend spend a couple days cleaning it and stated that he felt they had a right to take the baby due to the uncleanliness of the apartment. Again, this is after she had cleaned.

This is an internet friend by the way so I have not personally viewed her home and can't offer her advice so what I would like to know is what deems a home "clean" or "unclean" to CPS in general? What are they looking for and how can she comply with cleanliness?

Can they really take her baby without first saying "Mrs. Jones,.... you need to clean blah blah blah" and giving her a chance to comply?

Any advice or web site resources much appreciated. Her state is Washington if that makes a difference in respect to laws and/or expectations.

Thank you.

[thanksgivingmom]

You might have more luck in the Foster Parents forum where they generally have more experience dealing with CPS (though granted, usually from the Foster Parent side of things, but still).

Without having any actual information to back my opinion up? I'd think a messy house wouldn't be reason enough unless the mess was a safety/health factor for the child. Again, I don't know what the actual protocol is though.

Good luck!

[DPline]

Bassette - I just moved your thread over to the foster parent forum. (I was doing it while Thanksgivingmom was posting.) I agree with TGM that you are likely to get more info here. Hopefully one of the foster parents here can give you some insight.

[thanksgivingmom]

Thanks Debbie

[DianeS]

Oh, dear. This is never a good thing to hear.

You asked about differences between states, and I have to mention that when it comes to something as subjective as "clean", it not only varies by state, but by agency, worker, and sometimes the worker's mood.

Your friend did absolutely RIGHT in refusing to allow the workers into her house when they showed up without paperwork. They need a warrant to require that they come in. And personally, to get into my house they'd need a uniformed police officer with them who would tell me the warrant is really a warrant.

For the most part, reasonable CPS workers are looking for things that would indicate the baby is not being cared for, or cannot be cared for in that setting, or things that would harm the baby.

For instance, a home with rodent droppings or mold where the baby can reach them - that can harm the baby because of the likelihood the baby would put some in his mouth, and the harm is imminent, meaning the child could ingest some right then, or may have already done so.

A home with tall stacks of papers or other things - that could harm the baby in the future because stacks of things can fall over. (There was an article in my paper a year or so ago about a hoarder who died in her own home because the 8-foot stacks of newspaper all fell over and trapped her, she couldn't get out.)

A home with spoiled food in the refrigerator (not just one soft bunch of carrots or mushy lettuce, but primarially spoiled stuff) - that can indicate the baby can't be cared for since it would be hard to sort through the spoilage to find healthy food for the baby.

Unwashed dishes (again, not a few, but a week's worth or more) - could harm the child in the near future since those can attract rodents and bugs.

Keep in mind that too much of a messy home can indicate other problems - untreated depression, for instance, or a mental disorder such as a hoarding compulsion. The workers would be looking for indicators of things like that, too.

Everyone has a messy home once in a while. But the fact she cleaned for "several days" and still had enough of a problem that someone commented on it is troubling. CPS doesn't care about dust. They don't care if all your clean clothes are folded. They don't care if the breakfast dishes are still in the sink at lunchtime.

It's not a crime to be cluttered or messy - a bit. It's when it threatens the health or safety of a child that it becoems an issue. It's hard to imagine a home can get in the kind of condition where that is possible, but it happens.

To answer the other part of your question, about whether CPS can remove her child without giving her a chance to rectify the problem first - the answer is yes, they can.

The legalities on that differ. But if they really believe the child is in imminent danger (like feces on the floor when the child is of an age to crawl, for one example), they are authorized to remove the child. But they MAY need to have a uniformed police officer present to do the removal if the mom refuses to hand her child to the worker.

If the child is not in imminent danger (like the example of a week's worth of dirty dishes that will start attracting rodents and bugs soon) If the danger is likely to be present soon, they may tell her to fix the problems before they return in a couple days or weeks. If she did not have them fixed, they could remove the child then, in fact they will probably arrive with a judge's warrant for the child's removal, and either serve it to remove the child or not even mention it if they choose to let the child remain. If she did have the problems fixed, she might stay being monitored instead.

Your friend is well within her rights to not allow them in until they show up with a warrant to investigate the living conditions. She is within her rights to refuse to hand over her child unless they have a warrant for the child's removal.

I'd caution her against fighting an actual warrant, though, it's awfully hard to work a case plan from jail if she is arrested for non compliance with a legal warrant, or worse, for fighting with people during her child's removal.

If I were her, I'd be cleaning that house from sunup to sundown, no matter what it took. The baby can stay with a friend, and I might throw everything in the apartment into garbage bags and take it to the dump, all the way to the carpet if necessary.

I'd retain a lawyer, too, to ensure I knew any other rights I had in that state/city, and ensure I took all legal steps necessary to retain rights to my child (or to get her back if it comes to that).

I hope that helps.

[momraine]

Is there anyway she can send you photos to get your help in figuring out what to clean? We usually have a messy house, one time when dh was out of town and I had been sorting clothes to send to my sister, we had a neighbor call because she had issues with my disabled daughter playing outside. (in our fenced yard with her older brothers). Ours was deemed unfounded but scared the tar out of me. They did look to see if there was plenty of food in the cupboards and that the kids had clean clothes in thier rooms and appropriate toys. If she has a friend who can come help her clean that would be useful. If she can afford it get a storage locker and put excess stuff in it. (I know it's hard to throw too much away when dh is not there to defend his stuff). If it's mold and stuff that she can't do anything about due to renting, it's time to move. Check into base housing if nessesary. Ask that supervisor to help her. Ask him what specifically he would reccomend she do. One thing to consider, if she was raised by a messed up mom like I was, she may not really know how to clean and some basic step by step instructions would be helpful. It's really hard to get the cleaning done when you are full panic mode. I know I have been there.

[BrandyHagz]

It sounds like she is in communication with her husband’s command – a good first step. However, it sounds like the state may actually have a case, if she spent two days cleaning her house and someone in his command still felt that the house was unsafe for a child.

If the command feels that way – then they’re likely not going to be a lot of help.

I had a girlfriend in high school that lost her children to CPS because her home was ‘messy’ (her word, theirs was condemnable) – they showed up, took the kids for a week and told her to get the house clean.

She never got her kids back.

Some people see mess where others see filth. In this case, the best she can do is maybe solicit the help of others to come over and help her get the house clean. Move off base; get your deposit back, base housing nazi’s clean…especially if her husband’s command is of the opinion that 2 days worth of cleaning isn’t enough and they are unwilling to support her.

She can go to the Red Cross and send a message to her husband (if he’s deployed) and ask for hardship leave for him to come home during this time. It’d likely get approved.

[momraine]

Depending on how she was raised, she may have a different idea of what normal is. If she has some friends, maybe other wives who could help her out come over and either physically help her, or tell her what exactly she needs to do that would help. They can also tell her if maybe she needs to move. She may need to move to a smaller place that is safer rather than a larger one she can afford.

[Kat-L]

People who have homes that are deemed unsafe usually have a lot of stuff. I agree with the person who said she needs to get rid of everything that is not completely necessary. The less she has the less she has to keep clean. Once all the stuff is gone, it would be worth it to pay a cleaning company to come in and clean the house top to bottom. It's cheaper than a lawyer or fighting to get the baby back.

If she absolutely refuses to part with her stuff, see if she'll consider packing up everything she doesn't use on a daily basis and put in storage. First month is usually only a dollar. She can then have a cleaning crew come in and clean from top to bottom. Have someone accompany her to the store and get the nursery in order. Make sure there is food in the fridge and clean clothes in the closets.

She should be able to have it taken care of over the weekend. Serv Pro came to clean my house after squirrels got into the house and pooped and peed on every surface!! It was VERY expensive because they came last minute (I got home from work at 5:30 and found squirrels loose in the house) and it was considered hazardous (due to possible hanta virus from squirrel stool). A crew of 8 came and cleaned the entire house including the furniture and carpets in about 4 hours. They moved the furniture, shampooed carpets, sanitized every surface. She will probably need someone like Serv Pro because a normal maid service won't be equipped to deal with an extraordinary situation. Will it be expensive? Yes. Probably a few hundred dollars. But it's cheaper than paying a lawyer and wondering where your baby is sleeping at night.

[fredalina]

Generally CPS/DCS/DHS/DSF/etc does not *want* to take a baby. They actually try very hard (sometimes way too hard) to keep families together. But if a child is in imminent danger for any reason (including filth), yes, they can remove a child without giving a chance to fix it. However, if the child is removed, it doesn't mean that she "loses" her baby forever. She would be given a case plan to work, which would likely include getting and keeping the home clean, or if there is something like mold that keeps coming back, she may need to move, etc. States are extremely cautious about giving birthparents many chances before they terminate parental rights forever.

IMO she did right to not let them in without a warrant, and she should hold fast to this. Meanwhile, she needs to continue to clean, or hire a cleaning company to clean the home top to bottom. i had a very thorough cleaning done professionally on my 2200 sf house which was not filthy by any means but it had been a while since i'd had a *deep* cleaning (my DH's back was hurt and i'd just had knee surgery and had been on crutches for months), and it cost between $400-500. Depending on the size of the home and the state of it. My suggestion is she continue to clean for several days and get a pro in asap. As pp said, it may not be cheap but it will still be cheaper than an attorney.

[fredalina]

Whoopsie -- double post. Sorry.

[chevyjewel]

I don't feel like I could begin to comment here because the description of events sounds either fishy or full of holes...

It doesn't add up to me is what I'm tryin to say. So much of it...

[meshsgrl]

I don't feel like I could begin to comment here because the description of events sounds either fishy or full of holes...

It doesn't add up to me is what I'm tryin to say. So much of it...

I would normally agree... and my first thought was there is no way this is true. But then I remembered 4 adorable little kids I had once. They were removed from their home because of the filth in the home. The kids came on Friday, at the hearing on Monday the CW presented photos of the cleaning they had done in 2 days. The judge was impressed.
But bottomline... if you can live in a home filthy enough to have your kids removed, then most likely your kids are filthy and not well cared for either. I have a friend who can go a year without cleaning her toilets, she has literally paths through stuff to get from one room to the next. Her sink is normally covered with at least a weeks worth of food and dishes. Her cat, dog, and kids run wild in the house. Is she abusive? No Does she love her kids? ABSOLUTELY. Do they get the level of care and nuturing they should? NO. Would I call CYS on her? No. Would they remove her kids if someone did call? Maybe

[Hadley2]

Many years ago before fostering, I mentored at-risk families. This sounds very similar to one of those situations.

Myself and two other ladies spent an entire day, with the "help" of the mother, trying to straighten and clean her home. After over six hours, you still could not walk but a narrow (maybe 10-12") path through the house and you could not see the counters for all the dirty pans, dishes, food, etc. Hoarding was a huge issue--not just of food, but of videotapes, magazines, chatchkes, clothes, and more. I don't think she'd done laundry in months--either just wore everything again or kept buying new.

The key for this lady was never cleaning. It was psychiatric care. She had to fail, though, before services beyond a therapist would be offered. She did, big time, I won't go into that except to say that the failure that triggered a removal and higher level services wasn't about cleaning.

It's just my thoughts, but your friend may be more in need of and able to benefit from services than cleaning advice. If she is actually organized enough to pull off getting the house cleaned and misses out on the chance to receive family preservation services, including mental health care, I would have to wonder how long it would last and how much it would reflect a truly functional parent or one who managed to jump through one hoop while others, perhaps more serious, went unnoticed.

I guess that is my long-winded way of saying that something is wrong. Social services is there, first, to try to preserve the family if possible and help the parents change the conditions that put their children at risk and may lead to removal. Having an investigation result in receiving services, even if a removal is necessary to ensure the safety of the child, isn't the worst thing that could happen. It could be worse to squeak out of immediate trouble but not get the help she needs to parent safely. It may be best to empathize but not to try to rescue her from what she may really need--intervention.

ETA: An investigation and finding doesn't always lead to immediate removal. Our daughter's parents received nearly two years of services before her first removal.

[TxMom65]

If a home were bad enough to cause removal, there is filth, not clutter. There is usually some form of fecal matter within reach of everything (pets, diapers, rodents) and trash everywhere. There can be rotting food and enough 'stuff' that it becomes a fire hazard.

If she cleaned for days and someone else says it isn't clean, she has a problem.