[GAMOM75]

we just got back from spending a week out of state to meet the sibling set of 3 that we were matched with. Of course the first two days were great. But now, I am feeling overwhelmed and am secretly hoping TPR is held up of some sort. Am I just scared/cold feet? The kids were overall great kids. Of course I was in observation mode the entire week. Here are some of the behaviors I noticed. Are these typical? Just want to mention kids have been in several different placements. The oldest (J) has been placed in 9 placements over the course of 10 years. The last one was the only one that was his fault. The two youngest ones have been in 5 placements. None of which were there faults. (According to the paperwork we have read) So of course my first concern is RAD.


Oldest Child (J)(12yrs) seem to make excuses for his siblings. For instance, when the kids were hyper he would say "I think it is because they forgot their medicine" It was as though he was afraid we would change our minds about adopting them if they kids misbehaved. He seem to speak for them. If I asked a question to the little one, he would immediately answer before the little one could. That drove me crazy the first day and seem to aggregate the siblings. I finally had to tell him to let them answer for themselves. Overall he seemed to be a normal preteen. In the car would just attached himself to a mp3 player. He seemed like a happy child overall and was talkative and friendly when spoken too. Some odd behaviors that we did notice was as the days went on I noticed that when we were not looking he would intentionally aggravate his siblings. Poking fun at his sister or brother until they cried, taking them from them, etc. It seem to be out of boredom, but was constant and only done when we were not in the room. My bio daughter noticed it and would instantly stand up for the little ones. When the little ones would get riled up, bio child would help calm them down. This seem to upset (J) and he would make comments to her like " I will handle it" etc. I figured this to be normal for a child who has been looking out for his siblings for the past few years. On the second day, J caught my husband and I off guard when he called us 'mom and dad'. I did not know how to act. He said the words to us but in a lower tone. As though he wanted to see how it sounded? I am not sure. Does this sound like rad? He never used the words again the rest of the week, just on that day. At dinner one night he spurted out that his sister had ADHD and brother had Bipolar. Just random comments. He seemed to take pride in the fact that he was not on any medications. On the 5th day we noticed there was a huge obsession with food. In fact, we had to put a rule that they needed to ask us before going in and out of the fridge. On two occasions my husband and I caught him sneaking food out of the fridge. He would put his finger on food at dinner to "claim it" and prevent everyone from eating it. As we were ending the visit we had the kids pack up all of the food in the rental house to take it back with them to the foster home. (J) put all of the food in a bag and kept it next to him in the car. On the way home he constantly stuffed his mouth with food. Nonstop. Never letting anyone else get any. Finally my husband told him to put the food away. I still caught him sneaking food out of the bag. It is not like the kid was hungry, we had just eaten lunch! Another thing I noticed is J kept telling me that he was not an aggressive person. Just at random. Out of the blue he would make that statement. I know he has a history of aggression, so I know he is saying this to convince me. It is clear he is trying to manipulate me, but he is not very good at it. He tried to manipulate several times over the course of the week, but all very obvious. Does all of this sound like normal behavior?

Middle Child K (9yrs old) Was very shy when we met her. Within minutes she attached herself (literally) to our bio daughter (11yrs old) She wanted to sit by her in the car, at dinner, etc. This continued most of the week. K seemed to be really annoyed with her siblings. Especially J. She would scream if J touched anything of hers. But if my husband or I or even bio child touched it, no problem. We went to an amusement park, and she was annoyed that she had to sit next to her younger sibling on a ride since only she could ride with him due to the height requirements. It was like the kids did not know how to play with each other but had no problem playing with us. She was so affectionate to my daughter though. As the week went on, she was okay with giving me hugs. She was still naturally shy with my husband. She has been diagnosed with ADHD and I definitively saw it when there was a lapse in medication. She seems to have no real bond with her siblings and they annoy her very easy. I saw her show a little affection with the youngest but non with the oldest at all.

The youngest (P) 6 years old. was very quite the first day. Would not make a lot of eye contact and seemed to be shy. As the day went on he seemed to open up especially with my husband. His behavior seems like typical 6 year old other than the the fact that he is a habitual liar. About the smallest of smallest things. Usually when he is trying to avoid getting in trouble. When he lies, he always looks down or away. Will avoid eye contact with you. Especially when you are disciplining him. He tries to avoid your eye contact and will play dumb. Like he does not understand. We let him know that in our house we don't care about mistakes we care more about the truth and trust..jada jada. Letting him know that if the truth is told, you will not get in trouble for accidents or mistakes. By the end of the week he got better. He would start to lie out of habit and I would look him in the eye and say P, are you lying to me? Then he would immediately say yes and tell the truth. Early on in the trip he would also pout when he did not get what he wanted and would again avoid eye contact, but he really wanted to please my husband. My husband would say..."if you pout we will leave right now" etc. and surprisingly that worked. By the first day he would make continued eye contact with my husband and by the end of the week he made it with me. He immediately gave my husband a hug on the last visit without being prompted. For me, I had to ask if it was okay if I hugged him and he gave me a huge hug and did not want to let go. This was a big step since on the first visit he would not even let me hold his hand to cross the street.

BioChild age 11 of course she was the one most excited about adopting. She wanted siblings. After day 7 she was in tears and said she did not want things to change. Now that we are home she is attached to me and wants to watch our shows together, etc. I am not sure if this is normal behavior or a sign that she is not ready for this? She seemed to really attach to P and vise versa. She gave him a long hug and said she would miss him. She likes K alot, but I could tell that K's constant following her around was making her feel suffocated as she went to bed very early one of the nights. Later she admitted to me that she just wanted some time to herself. I let her know that once K got settled and into her own things she would feel safe enough to not stick so close to her. Bio did not bond to J at all. She actually hates him (according to her) I am not sure if that is an age thing or what? She seemed annoyed that the constantly antagonized the little ones and spent most of the days sticking up for them. I think this caused more friction between her and J since he felt it was his job to protect the little ones and she was trying to take that role? Who knows...

Thoughts anyone??? Is all of this normal or should we just run away now? I am so confused.

[sergekel]

I hope I am not being negative...but my gut feeling is that these kids have really been through the wringer.

I am feeling that it might be in their best interests to find a family with no other children. These kids seem to be very involved and where your bio daughter is only one and this sibling set is three, I would hate to see her get drowned out due to this group's issues and needs, etc...

Sad thing is, how long will this group need to wait to find a family with no other children to take them? That would be my line of thought. I think I would have horrible guilt...thinking that if I didn't take them, who would??

I don't know. I suggest talking to EVERYONE involved in these kids' lives. Every foster parent, teacher, cw, anyone I could get ahold of to help draw a picture of what these kids are really like.

Also, I looked into a teenage boy once..and I have a teenage daughter. I asked around and the general advice was to keep kids of the opposite sex of similar ages away from each other. So, the 12 y/o boy is pretty close in age to your 11 year old.

A LOT of things to consider. No matter what happens, thank you so much for considering opening your home as a forever family to these kids. Bless them, they need a home so badly. It just needs to be determined that your home is the best place for them...and that they are a good fit for your family.

There is always more than what's on the surface. If I had to base a decision on what you said here, I would be leaning towards not taking them, if it were me. But the more you look into them, there might be some good explanations to their behavior that could be worked on.

I would have a hard time getting past what the bio child would experience while you worked hard to meet these other kids needs and help them deal with deep issues. I am all for teaching our bio kids to love and serve others, don't get me wrong. I think the thing for me is that there are so many of them and just one of her. If you had 3 bios and were considering one needy adopted child, things would be different.

I hope you do not find this discouraging....just some thoughts to help you weigh your pros/cons and make a decision that is best for everyone.

(((hugs)))))

[jphollen]

I just want to address a couple things about the oldest child and let others with other/more/different experience chime in.

Food- I have yet to have a foster child yet who doesn't have food issues. Some hoard food, some steal food, some over eat until they are sick and I could go on and on. In my experience this tends to be because there were periods in their life where food wasn't constant, they needed to ration it, save it, they may have not been sure where there next meal was coming from etc. I had one child who despite lack of food as a very young child had been consistently fed for several years and still struggled with food issues. It usually helps to have a therapist help wade through these issues. Having a huge bowl of fresh fruit available, as well as strict rules about where in the house we can eat (but less focus on how often) can really help with hoarding and stealing.

Answering for the other children Can be from having to parent them in the past, wishing to control them or really wanting to please you. We have a sib set where the oldest definately was the parent. It took some time to transition him into a sibling role. Example at first we let him help out (gather things for diaper changes etc) until he felt secure and let go a little. We left his sisters door cracked at night so "he could check on her" (the idea was to make him feel like he had some control of course we weren't depending on him to actually do it, we also had a monitor set up so he knew we were properly caring for her as well).

I would worry about attachment issues with all the kids. Its a lot of placements, how could they willingly want to trust any adult. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't do it. It does mean that I would have an attachment therapist on speed dial before I brought them home. JMHO. Also be prepared to have things of that nature written into your subsidy agreement. Attachment therapy (provisions for behavioral hospitalizations and rtc wouldn't be unreasonable either). Not trying to scare you just being realistic.

Good luck.

[chevyjewel]

Just my take, for what it's worth

J sounds like a very typical 12 year old boy. They are always famished and antagonistic towards siblings lol so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I think his randomness totally sounds like testing. 9 placements in 10 years has undoubtedly taught him that everyone will eventually reject him. I'd be willing to bet he liked your family and to avoid being hurt again thought he'd put the worst tidbits about himself and his siblings out there in hopes if you were going to reject him and them you'd do it now before he really got attached to you and the thought of your family actually becoming a part of his. The fact that he tried to justify his younger siblings behaviors would imply to me that he was truely wanting them all to make a good impression. That and that he's very much wanting to be a permanent part of a family someday. Lots of kids being bumped around that much would be bitter, resentful and ready to reject first. He certainly doesn't give that impression from what I've read of him.

K sounds like a very typical 9 year old girl too. The fact that she didn't scream at you guys when you were touching her stuff was only because you're new. I'd be very willing to bet that with time she'd feel more comfortable and begin having the same reaction as she affords her brothers. Additionally, I don't know of many 9 year old girls that are physically affectionate with their brothers, unless their brothers are babies. The arguing and general irate behavior towards them sounds about as normal as can be as far as I'm concerned.

Guess what I'm going to say about P lol? He sounds about as normal as they come too. The lying is what a lot of kids his age are testing out. The fact that he comes clean almost immediately however is fantastic! Wow! The pouting is just his age groups way of learning how to deal with disappointment and for most kids, once a predictable response from you is learned, the behavior usually all but disappears.

Your daughter sounds like she is more than ready for siblings even though she talked about wanting some alone time every once in awhile. Going from no siblings to three would be quite the adjustment for her. Assuring her if she needed it that she could get away for a bit would help I'm sure. I would have been super surprised if she said she was crazy about J because they're so close in age, and at 11 12ish the opposite gender contains cooties. Although initially overwhelming, with time the additional noise and stuff and K following her around would become normal to her and wouldn't phase her much if at all. K will likely get bored of it too and back off a bit.


From what you described these are FANTASTIC kids. Despite what they've been through they don't appear to have suffered many ill affects at all that don't also affect other kids their same ages that have never endured what they have. That resiliancy, and the fact that they don't seem emotionally completely out of whack would have me running towards them, not away.

Good luck with whatever you decide though. Hopefully others here will have additional insight for you

[mamallama]

It sounds like "normal" behavior for kids that have been been abused and shuffled around in foster care for years. It also sounds like this sibling group is going to require an enormous amount of time, patience, counseling, etc. I think most will agree that the behaviors we see in the beginning are only the tip of the iceberg.

Four kids is A LOT of work (speaking from experience) when they have don't have any issues. I personally wouldn't disrupt birth order. I think making a first born (and an only child for 11 years) a middle child in a very dysfunctional sibling group could be extremely traumatic.

[dachshunds4you]

Chevyjewl: you put in words exactly what I was thinking.

I agree 100% with what you said. I think a lot of this, is typical kids...and most especially kids who have been bounced around. I think once you bring these kids home, they will all settle in very nicely.

Definitely having one on one time with your bio is an absolute. She will need that to not feel jealous of the others, and know she can still have that time with you.

Once you have these kids in your home (if that's what you decide) having firm rules/consequences in place everything will fall into place. These kids need to learn that another family isn't going to abandon them again...

I wish you the best on your decision. Pls keep us posted on what you decide.

[stevenstwin]

You specifically mentioned fear of RAD - so I'll say that although it is, of course, FAR too early to really assess (since RAD behaviours may not surface for a long time) I don't see any red flags in what you've posted. The parentified 12 year old sounds "normal" although you'll have to work hard on giving her permission to be a kid. These kids have obviously been through a LOT and will need a lot of your time and attention, but there's nothing here that gives me that "OMG" feeling. I am, however, a little concerned about your bio daughter. Mine was excited in THEORY to foster/adopt, but the reality was way too much for her and she cried a lot about losing closeness with her parents, and having her family "change". She thought it would be just like adding a new baby to the family, (she did fine when her sister came along) but of course it isn't - not one that's suddenly just THERE with all his baggage and problems...and we didn't even have three.

[stevenstwin]

Originally Posted by mamallama

Four kids is A LOT of work (speaking from experience) when they have don't have any issues. I personally wouldn't disrupt birth order. I think making a first born (and an only child for 11 years) a middle child in a very dysfunctional sibling group could be extremely traumatic.

I used to argue against this, but I have to say you are right. My 13 year old daughter was displaced by a 14 year old foster son, and the one who had the biggest problem with it was HIM. He was always trying to boss her around, take what was hers, etc. on the excuse that "I am the oldest". Once I actually said to him "Well, she's been here longer!". I know that sounds really mean and wasn't the best response, but you had to be there. Add to that his intense behaviours and she was just a nervous wreck. Ironically, now that he lives on his own, they've become pretty good friends...so it isn't that she wasn't really and truly willing to make it work. She just couldn't.

[Chancey]

It sounds like these kids have a HUGE amount of baggage, and you have not even yet seen a miniscule part of it. In a case like this I would recommend really listening to your daughter and respecting her wishes. 3 immediate siblings may be too much for her - especially given that they are close in age to her.

There is a lot of weight given to birth order. Your daughter is first in your family birth order - being stuck as a middle child and with kids that have lots of issues could be too much.

I am speaking from some experience. We have a 12 yo bio son. About two years ago we were placed with a sibling set. 1 boy who was six months younger than my son and in a grade below; the sister was two years younger. They were placed as legal risk - we had hoped (at first) to adopt. He had ADHD and was "hyper vigilant" (sounds like the 12 yo boy you visited with). She was sexualized. We had sooooo much stress in our family, from their behaviors we only lasted four months. We had to ask for them to be moved. Our son was so relieved and EXTREMELY happy the day they left. So, I'm saying, it is REALLY hard on bio kids and you might have to respect her feelings.

Now, if we were to adopt a baby our bio son would be in HOG HEAVEN! We have a foster 8 month old that he begs us to adopt

[crick]

I agree with Mamallama - all these behaviors are normal for what they have gone through and their situations. And while they sound overwhelming, can certainly be overwhelming, I didn't see anything in there that would make me personally run. Does that mean it'll be easy? No.

I'd also say with diligent attachment parenting and a lot of structure, the kids would likely do well.

I guess it comes down to you and your family and what you feel.

[DianeS]

I agree with everyone who says that behavior seems typical for kids in the foster care system. That isn't the same thing as saying they're normal kids - not by a long shot.

One thing I see is that the 12 year old is parentified. The picking on the siblings may be typical, but it can also be part of being parentified - giving him a situation he can control and "fix" for the littles. While typical and to be expected, it will take a lot of work to get him to stop. And it will have to be stopped, because of the way it affects all three kids who are younger than he is, and for the way it affects him. The two youngest need to see you as mother in order to bond properly and take instruction from you. Your birth daughter needs you to intervene so she doesn't feel she has to, and so you don't set her and the oldest boy up for a power struggle. And the oldest boy needs to see himself asa sib, not a replacement parent, in order to learn proper interaction with others his age.

So that's a big one, one you can't ignore, and one you'll have to figure out quickly before that dynamic sets itself up between your daughter and the oldest boy, which could happen in a matter of days. Which means you may have to institute line-of-sight supervision for this group, or at least for the oldest boy, since it only happened when you were out of the room. (Things that only happen when you are out of the room can also set up a he-said-she-said thing between your daughter and the oldest boy, also not good.) Line-of-sight supervision is a LOT of work.

While I don't see any immediate red flags with the two youngest ones, I would insist on speaking to their previous foster parents. Paperwork doesn't tell the whole story, as you know. And 5 placements is a LOT to blame on "things", and you'll need to know the other foster parents' perspective on what happened, then you can maybe figure out what the truth might be.

Get the details from the older boy's foster homes about this "aggression". It also sounded like he wasn't always placed with his siblings - find out why, from the person who made that decision, or from a foster home that had them together. If it was lack of homes for that broad an age range, that's one thing. If he was aggressive to his younger sibs, that's another, since he's already started bothering them. You also want the details of the one move that is being blamed on him. What happened, exactly? Find out from the people actually involved, not from the papers or a caseworker.

What is your bedroom situation? You'll want to be sure your daughter has the ability to go into a different room from K and shut the door, preferably a room that belongs to your daughter (and not a den or your bedroom or something). I don't blame her for feeling "suffocated" by the end of a whole week of being followed around.

Give yourself a few days to breathe and sort through everything in your head. Mixed feelings at this point are normal. Going from one to four would makeanyone overwhelmed, and you have the added issues of the children's special needs to consider.

[GAMOM75]

Thank you so much for the great responses. I do feel guilty and know that if we don't go forward these kids may never be adopted due to their ages and lack of adoptive homes in the county. Plus I feel guilty because the kids were just moved from a home they were comfortable in to another home that has experiece in transitioning kids into adoptive homes. The foster mom is pregnant and the kids can only stay until the baby is born. 7 months max. So if we don't go forward the kids will be moved again for sure. The cw told us she does not think the kids can survive another loss especially since all three told her they loved our family and wanted to move with us now. I am so depressed over this and am wondering how I got myself in this mess. TPR hearing is tomorrow. I am going to pray on it and hope the answers are more clear tomorrow. Three is alot,boy do I wish bio was on board with this. I don't think we can do it without her on board. I was concerned about birth order but DD is the one that found this group initally. They hit it off on all of the phone calls previsit and I started to think it could work. Why didn't I just stick to the rules? I am happy to hear no rad signs pop out and that over all the behaviors seem normal. They really were good kids you just can't help but analyze everything.

[stevenstwin]

Yes, sleep on it, pray on it...I do believe that the answers will come to you. For all the advice we can give you, we aren't THERE. We haven't met these kids, we don't know your daughter or you - so YOUR instincts will tell you what to do. Just don't ignore what those instincts are trying to tell you, and don't do anything out of guilt! I can totally understand what you mean, but on the other hand the loss of your family now will be nothing compared to an adoption disruption later on, if you go into this KNOWING you shouldn't because you don't want to disappoint them. on the other hand, if you truly feel it is the right thing to do, don't let worry or guil about your BioD stop you - she might just be having a momentary reaction to sudden change. Heck, I've heard of moms with newborns suddenly mourning the loss of their "old" family!

Originally Posted by GAMOM75

Thank you so much for the great responses. I do feel guilty and know that if we don't go forward these kids may never be adopted due to their ages and lack of adoptive homes in the county. Plus I feel guilty because the kids were just moved from a home they were comfortable in to another home that has experiece in transitioning kids into adoptive homes. The foster mom is pregnant and the kids can only stay until the baby is born. 7 months max. So if we don't go forward the kids will be moved again for sure. The cw told us she does not think the kids can survive another loss especially since all three told her they loved our family and wanted to move with us now. I am so depressed over this and am wondering how I got myself in this mess. TPR hearing is tomorrow. I am going to pray on it and hope the answers are more clear tomorrow. Three is alot,boy do I wish bio was on board with this. I don't think we can do it without her on board. I was concerned about birth order but DD is the one that found this group initally. They hit it off on all of the phone calls previsit and I started to think it could work. Why didn't I just stick to the rules? I am happy to hear no rad signs pop out and that over all the behaviors seem normal. They really were good kids you just can't help but analyze everything.

[Kelly Rae]

I will be praying for wisdom for you in your decision.

You have received great counsel, I would like to add throw out the guilt in making this decision as guilt wont see you through their healing. Though disappointing for them if you choose not to move forward, it would be horrible to put them through a disrupted adoption.

[GAMOM75]

Originally Posted by DianeS

I agree with everyone who says that behavior seems typical for kids in the foster care system. That isn't the same thing as saying they're normal kids - not by a long shot.

One thing I see is that the 12 year old is parentified. The picking on the siblings may be typical, but it can also be part of being parentified - giving him a situation he can control and "fix" for the littles. While typical and to be expected, it will take a lot of work to get him to stop. And it will have to be stopped, because of the way it affects all three kids who are younger than he is, and for the way it affects him. The two youngest need to see you as mother in order to bond properly and take instruction from you. Your birth daughter needs you to intervene so she doesn't feel she has to, and so you don't set her and the oldest boy up for a power struggle. And the oldest boy needs to see himself asa sib, not a replacement parent, in order to learn proper interaction with others his age.

So that's a big one, one you can't ignore, and one you'll have to figure out quickly before that dynamic sets itself up between your daughter and the oldest boy, which could happen in a matter of days. Which means you may have to institute line-of-sight supervision for this group, or at least for the oldest boy, since it only happened when you were out of the room. (Things that only happen when you are out of the room can also set up a he-said-she-said thing between your daughter and the oldest boy, also not good.) Line-of-sight supervision is a LOT of work.

While I don't see any immediate red flags with the two youngest ones, I would insist on speaking to their previous foster parents. Paperwork doesn't tell the whole story, as you know. And 5 placements is a LOT to blame on "things", and you'll need to know the other foster parents' perspective on what happened, then you can maybe figure out what the truth might be.

Get the details from the older boy's foster homes about this "aggression". It also sounded like he wasn't always placed with his siblings - find out why, from the person who made that decision, or from a foster home that had them together. If it was lack of homes for that broad an age range, that's one thing. If he was aggressive to his younger sibs, that's another, since he's already started bothering them. You also want the details of the one move that is being blamed on him. What happened, exactly? Find out from the people actually involved, not from the papers or a caseworker.

What is your bedroom situation? You'll want to be sure your daughter has the ability to go into a different room from K and shut the door, preferably a room that belongs to your daughter (and not a den or your bedroom or something). I don't blame her for feeling "suffocated" by the end of a whole week of being followed around.

Give yourself a few days to breathe and sort through everything in your head. Mixed feelings at this point are normal. Going from one to four would makeanyone overwhelmed, and you have the added issues of the children's special needs to consider.

The kids would all have their own room. We thought having any of them share a room would not be ideal. Especially bio child since she has always had her own room.

The kids have always been placed together in the same foster home. The reason for the moves was going from foster home back to mom, back to foster home. CW stepped in and moved them from the last 3 homes because she found out accidentally one home used corpal (sp?) punishment. The kids mentioned it without knowing it would get foster mom in trouble. Another home CW moved because she was unhappy that FM had the kids labled and placed on ADHD and Bipolar meds with out her knowledge/permission. Moved kids. Last home (J) fault, home was very strict and he felt like FM was against him and played bio kids against him. He asked his CW to move him said he hated it there. Later on it was determined that FM told younger siblings to help her get rid of J and she would adopt them. Younger siblings admitted this to CW and she moved the kids.

J's aggression was documented by principal since he got in a fight at school with FS from last home. Per J and K he was protecting her. Other aggression was documented from previous FM said J would throw toys at siblings and other FK's in the home for no reason. J says the other kids picked on him and he was blamed for everything because FM did not like him because he was older and would not always do what she said. I am sure the truth lies somewhere between the two stories. There are no other documented aggression reports, however in talking with J it sounded like before he was in care he had physical fights with an older sibling that has since aged out of FC. Kids came from a home of domestic abuse.

Great advice about intervening so they don't have to have that struggle.