[kakuehl]

As I read through this thread, I had a couple of thoughts (being me I have to share them, of course!) First a comment, then a story!

One of the first courses I had in seminary was about language and communication and some learnings have stuck with me! All of us speak a different language (yes, I know we think we're all speaking English). Our uderstanding of vocabulary is affected by our own experiences. You literally do not hear what I thought I said! I see a lot of that happening in this thread. This, btw, is one reason the ADG says to avoid generalizations! I can talk about my experience but I can't assume that everyone else has the same experience. I can share my experiences and insights and you will hear (read) what I say from your own perspective. (BTW, I am a birthmom who has never done drugs, neglected or abused my kids... who chose to relinquish my firstborn at birth - he was not removed from my care -- just so you know a bit of my background. I am currently an ordained Lutheran minister with a master's degree.)

Now the story: years ago, when I was teaching, I had a student who was physically abused by his father. (There 5 children, Dad beat everyone; for some reason the children were not removed from the home.) When David was in high school (I was his chorus director), his father was in a car wreck that left him in a vegetative state. I remember thinking how relieved David must be and being astounded (befuddled?) at how much pain he was in because of his father's situation... at how much he cared about and for his dad, this man who regularly beat him. I have never fostered, but my students have taught me much.

[RavenSong]

Kathy, my mom abused me physically and emotionally when I was a little kid. She was only 17 years old when I was born; my dad was 21. She was an unhappy young woman, with a husband who was an alcoholic and who beat her up like clockwork. The abuse didn't start until I was 4 years old, as far as I remember, and I have a memory that goes back to the crib.

When I was 4 y/o, my parents lost a set of twins boys...my brothers. My dad drank as his way of dealing with the grief. My mom stayed home and tried her best to take care of me, but I think her grief and her anger overwhelmed her. My dad left, and my mom lost it.

I was never removed from the home, although I did end up in foster care as a teenager thru the juvenile justice system, not DHS. I'm sure if the times had been different, CPS would have yanked me out of there.

Now here's the difficult part to explain. My mom and my dad loved me with all of their hearts. They really did...that's not just wishful thinking on my part. And I loved them. I loved my mom, even though she hurt me. And I loved my dad so much that I can't even find the right words to describe it.

My parents were messed up, that's for sure; there's no denying that. I think if they had had help or assistance of some kind that things would have been easier on all of us.

If anybody, anybody at all, had even suggested to me that my parents were not deserving of my love, I would have fought them tooth and nail. If someone had said my parents were not worthy of being parents, that they didn't deserve to be parents, I would have kicked them in the shins. I do know that when the doctors at Children's Hospital asked me how I had fractured my skull, I just glared at them and remained silent. They gave me a doll to play with in the ER, and I tore her head off when they told me to pretend that it was Mommy. And then later that night as I lay in the oversized crib, I cried for my Mommy to come get me. I called her name out over and over again.

Life is not black or white. People may not think that parents who abuse their kids love them. But most of them do, I believe. I know my parents did... It's easy to judge others when you haven't walked in their shoes.

I do know this one thing for a god-given truth, and that is kids get a lot of their identity and self-worth from their parents. If you believe their parents are trash, believe me, those kids will soon think that they are trash, too.

If it's all about the kids, then I think we must bear some semblance of compassion for their parents. For their parents' blood does run thru their veins. It's as simple as that, IMHO.

[jphollen]

I really wanted to keep my mouth shut but can't I am a former foster child and a foster parent. I have had four long term placement so far. Three sets of bios, two of which are simply addicts and seem to have neglected their kids. They love their kids they just can't seem to put the pieces of their lives together and struggle with addiction. I have empathy for them. Often times they irk me a little but I would never speak poorly of them. I will do and have done everything I can to help them get their kids home.

The other bio I have dealt with also had a drug problem. And truth be known I am sure some mental health issues. That said I will never be able to put my head around what she did. Do I harbor nasty feelings towards her? Honestly yep! I would never speak poorly about her in front of her child and I am more than civil to her in person...but it takes some serious effort. My fd was allegedly sexually abused by this woman herself and often traded sexually for drugs. This little girl is shattered. It makes me angry. The things this beautiful little girl did to herself to act out the abuse would be so terrible, so awful... This is my exception to the everyone makes mistakes rule. (which I truly believe in most cases). This is why I think all sides have good points. As a foster parent you should work towards r/u when it's the goal (9 times out of 10 or whatever). You should do back flips to help bios get their kids back but sometimes there is a case that is different. Sometimes it's not just they didn't know how to parent, drugs came into play, or there was neglect. Sometimes there was something much harder to get past. Everyone here means well.

[fredalina]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I do know this one thing for a god-given truth, and that is kids get a lot of their identity and self-worth from their parents. If you believe their parents are trash, believe me, those kids will soon think that they are trash, too.

If it's all about the kids, then I think we must bear some semblance of compassion for their parents. For their parents' blood does run thru their veins. It's as simple as that, IMHO.

i was once a mentor (through Big Brothers/Big Sisters) for a girl aged 12 (was her mentor until she turned 15 and moved in with her uncle, though we still write) who was raised by her paternal grandmother after being removed by CPS. She had "simply" been abandoned in the house for several hours while her mother had gone out and gotten high. She was 10 months old and was learning to pull herself up on things, and tried to pull herself up on a dangling iron cord and pulled the iron down on her head. She wailed and wailed until a neighbor broke into the apartment and reported her to CPS.

Later, her father got his life together somewhat, though her mother never did. Her father got married to another woman in another city and had 2 daughters he took care of with her.

This little girl felt like since her parents were bad people, she must be a bad person. She felt it so strongly and nothing could be done to convince her either that her parents were good people with bad circumstances, or that she would not necessarily turn out like them. Despite the efforts of her grandmother, her church, and her mentor (me), she spiraled down into that abyss and it took going to live with her uncle to snap her out of it. Her uncle was her blood relative also, had been very close to her father, had been friends with her mother, and was as stand-up a man as i've ever met, my own husband notwithstanding. He was an ex-military man with great character and discipline, and he was exactly what this girl needed.

When i was a teen, i was good friends with a girl adopted at birth because her mother was the victim of rape. Her birthparents were honest with her about her origins because they felt that, hard as it was to hear, it was better than secrets that might come out later. That girl felt like every violent thought she had, every sexual thought she had, etc was because she was some kind of deviant because she must have inherited it from her rapist father. Her birthparents tried to overcome this with her, but it took years of counseling for her to find peace.

But, yes, i truly believe that kids get a lot of their self-worth from their parents, or at least their lack thereof. On top of feeling like they aren't good enough for their parents to want enough to kick the drug habits, etc, or on top of feeling like they were the cause of the abuse or abandonment, etc, they feel like they are just as "bad" as their parents. If foster parents don't try to show respect for the birthparents insomuch as possible, try to show that the birthparents are good people in bad circumstances (even if we don't believe it!), and try to honor that part of the foster kids' selves, we can't hope that the kids will love or honor themselves enough to break the cycle of abuse.

Any bad sign or bad feeling that a child gets from a foster parent toward his/her birthparents will only reinforce to the child that he/she is also bad or worthless. Actions to show compassion and actually help the birthparents through mentoring will show the child that he/she is worth a chance.

[MassachusettsMom]

thelowlanders,

Just wanted to send my support. It sounds like you are going through this with mindfullness, which is great. I, too, have learned more than I ever wanted to through my foster-adopt journey. I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about my former FS's and current pre-adopt son's birthparents and the circumstances they came from. It's not easy.

[Dickons]

Originally Posted by thelowlanders

This is a toughie.

I went to CRB meetings today for both F children. I was completely torn from both aspects.

1 side: Mom is crying, missing all her son's firsts such as sitting, crawling, standing, etc. and is worried about lack of attatchment. Asking for more time at visits. They were basically blowing her off. I felt for her, and acknowledged to the board that there is not much room in SW schedule, but would highly recommend more time for mom w/ son because he's at an age of being ready to attatch. Really seems to not know her. Especially if he were returned, it would be best for him to not go to a "stranger" it would seem to him.

But here's side 2 creeping up in me: Wow, It's sad you missed his first standing up. But you shouldn't have missed his sitting and first crawling if you weren't neglecting him. He likely would have been doing this before he got taken away if you would have simply removed him from his carseat. He would have been less comatose if he wouldn't have been putting up w/ physical abuse.

So, my point is. I'm trying to grow through this. Be supportive to them. And to their children. She realized quickly when I vouched for her visit time, that I'm not trying to "steal" her kid. We actually started crying together, geesh. I recognize the hard decisions she's having to make. But on the other hand, I'm not quite there on understanding allowing your children to be put in danger. Period. And not being willing to separate from this person.

So I can see how people may be frustrated by their behavior and decisions. But I can also see where some of these people just need support, a safe place for their children, and when the timing is right.... a second chance. I just hope and pray that everyone involved makes sure they're actually ready.

Vegas C- Nicely put. Maybe I should print that and put it up by my mirror for me to read every morning. This truly is a journey for me.

Bravo! Well done! The journey of life is a never ending process of learning. Being brave enough to come here and ask the tough questions, struggle (or not) with the answers provided, means you have the best intentions for your children. They will grow up with the concept of looking at the bigger picture - because you are willing to look at the bigger picture - even if they are only with you a short time they will be better for it.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[BethanyB]

In reading some of these stories (which I think are very important) I wanted to clarify my thoughts a bit. I am not saying that every person who has their kids taken by the state deserves to get their children back. There are some really sick people out there, who if they do not change their ways are a danger to their children. In those cases, it is in the best interest to the children to be adopted into another home. People who molest children and do horrible acts such as that do not deserve to have their kids.

However, this thread was about "where to draw the line" and some really bothersome remarks were being made about bio parents who actually wanted certain things for their kids. As if ALL bio parents don't deserve things like pictures or the choice in how their kid wears their hair. THAT is what I took issue with. And not everyone came across the same way. I certainly understand needing to vent sometimes about certain things but the language you use is very important. I think this does become about who "gets" what, when it should not be that way.

As foster parents, we don't get to decide who "deserves" pictures or extra visits. The state has a job to do. And that is to either get these bio families on the right track or have the children adopted into good homes. Trust that the state is keeping track of those missed visits as proof before the judge, so if a judge decides that a parent does not deserve another chance, after many efforts have been made, than that is fair.

We, as foster parents, can't take what we hear and then judge for ourselves on who is worthy of this or that. Or who is telling who what to do or who is getting what.

I don't think we get to draw the line at all. If something comes from the SW, then in my eyes it should be done. If something comes from the bio parent and you feel it is unreasonable, than take it to the SW and they should decide where to draw the line.

Whenever I look at my kids I think how lucky I am to have them. And while I do not agree with many of the choices their bio mom made, I know they will always be a part of her. So putting her down is putting them down. Speaking poorly about her is speaking poorly about them. I will be honest with them about the past when they are old enough but I will also try to get them to see that some people really struggle with addictions and as much as they love their kids, they just can't overcome the hold it has over them. I really hope she is able to get help so that she will still be alive if they choose to search for her someday.

[vegaschristina]

Originally Posted by BethanyB

I don't think we get to draw the line at all. If something comes from the SW, then in my eyes it should be done. If something comes from the bio parent and you feel it is unreasonable, than take it to the SW and they should decide where to draw the line.

To me, drawing the line isn't about me "winning" or the bio parents "losing." I think it's about drawing the line on disruption of your own family while complying with the CW.

My schedule is amazing, and very detailed. Here's our current schedule:

Bubba has preschool Mon - Thurs
Nikki has preschool Mon, Wed, Fri
Sissy has daycare on Wednesday
I have college Tue, Wed, Thur
DH has college Wed plus a work schedule that changes weekly
my mom has college Thur, Fri, Sat

In addition to everyone's schools, I have the normal tasks of laundry, housework, church, doctor's appointments, shopping.

For me winning isn't about having the bmom lose, it's about keeping her visits in a timeframe that I can manage. When I am in class and get a call saying drop everything and bring the kids, it's hard to feel like I have any control over my own life. If however, I can tell the CW (and I do) I am free to bring the children on _________ or ________, which would be better for you? I have won, because I am still in control of my life and my time.

My CW had a nasty habit of scheduling EVERYTHING during nap time. It finally stopped when I brought the children, screaming from lack of nap, to his office and left them there with him for their visit. I wasn't losing, the kids were. After that screaming visit, we've never had another nap-time visit.

Like I've said before, winning isn't about the bparents losing, it's about a measure of control over my life.

[EandDmom]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

Dpen, I'd be really grateful for all the insight you can give. It's a pleasure and a privilege to have you here for the discussion.

I like your comment about making sure kids don't feel like they are trash. My son's parents are very troubled people, but they're not trash, and neither is my son. (My son, actually, is an incredible gem. :-) )

So would I actually.

[thelowlanders]

Vegs Chrstna- You are great at putting dowm my feelings exactly.


I think I found where I draw the line, as far as my compliance. This whole thing w/ the pictures and my bad attitude started out with my concern for our family's safety. The mother was being sneaky. Said the numbers on the card were the portrait studio. They were not. After I called them and realized they were personal numbers, it was too late. We were on her family's caller I D and they just had to look up "John and Jane Smith" and there's our address. (Listed before we started fostering)

So..... Here's my line. I am quite compliant w/ many requests. But when a bparent starts to be sneaky, rude, or disrespectful. That's my sign. I take a few steps back in my compliance for a while.

There's one line. Any others?

[EandDmom]

[quote=EandDmom]

Originally Posted by bethy724

If you are not a fp or have any intention on being one I have no idea why you are reading a thread started for fp support.

/QUOTE]

I was wondering this myself

Just for the record... I wasn't being snippy I really was interested in what would bring someone to this board if they had no interest in being a foster parent.

[CaddoRose]

The easiest way to find that line is let all request go through the CW. Even if the parents were to ask me about doing something, I have to tell them to talk to the CW about it. I can't make the decisions about anything. That all comes from the CW. It is easier to work things out with a CW who is understanding and who knows when the parents are asking for too much. It keeps me in the role of child caretaker and out of the role of possible adversary.
I do get time to talk with the parents, but I keep it about the kids and never get into anything else. It's better that way.

[BethanyB]

I would think that people who don't like having their lives disrupted would not even want to foster. Fostering comes with many expectations and unexpected court dates, visits and so on.

[stevenstwin]

Originally Posted by BethanyB

I would think that people who don't like having their lives disrupted would not even want to foster. Fostering comes with many expectations and unexpected court dates, visits and so on.

But that doesn't mean we have to put up with EVERY disruption! There was lots I was willing to do, but my only family counts, too! I'll tell you the issue we had that made me nuts- FS had 2 visits a week. We came home early from camping on several occasions to get him to his visit, only to find out that the visits had been cancelled. Finally I said "we're going camping for 2 weeks - if that is a problem, you'll need to arrange respite." THEN suddenly it was "no problem, we'll be happy to reschedule with the parents!!" Sometimes if you don't stand up for yourself, they'll walk all over you.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by stevenstwin

!" Sometimes if you don't stand up for yourself, they'll walk all over you.

Here's the difference to me: Am I saying no just because I'm p.o'd at the birthparents? Or do I have a genuine logistical problem?

If I'm willing to say "That's not a good time for me, can we reschedule?" that's logistical. But if my gut reaction is "STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!"-----well, then, I know I've got another problem altogether.