[thelowlanders]

So....we make an attempt at normal human life for the first time in months. We go to a friends house for dinner and lo and behold, FD urinates on their master bed all the way through the blankets, sheets, and of course soaks in to the mattress!

This "puddling" thing is something we thought was only coming from traumatic things like visits for a while, but now it's for every day stuff, like calm down and watch movie, or go to bed. ***bam*** there's a puddle and a nasty glare on FD's face. Or.... I'll get bath going right after I change baby diaper. ***bam*** she proceeds to stand next to toilet, pull pants down and urinate all over self and floor 1 inch away from toilet. You say "why" She says I was mad at you.... ?@!* is this really happening????? We've done all the therapy, emotion counseling, etc. Ugh, why? ....

This really needs to STOP. Is there any suggestions other than no emotional response, therapy junk, and "hoping" she'll stop?

[afamilythroughfoster]

have you tried taking away privileges..just stating matter of fact, "okay, well the next it happens you lose x privelege and you have to clean it up yourself". This is probably obvious but since I didn't see it in your post...

[chevyjewel]

How terribly frustrating all that must be.

Is she still in diapers?

If she's not perhaps putting her back in them might curb the behavior. Let her know only babies have accidents so they have to wear diapers?

If she's still in diapers perhaps keeping her in one piece outfits for awhile so she can't undress herself and get her diaper off to do that sort of thing might snap her out of it. That's what we did anyway with our little guy who was a poo player. Taking the ability to do that sort of behavior away from him for awhile helped him to forget all about it. When we started going back to multiple item outfits the behavior had ceased. We also had him take showers after we'd discover a "painting" of his. He HATED them because he couldn't sit and play like he could during baths and I think that helped too.

[c.a]

Am I reading your signature correctly - FD is not quite 3? My son is 3 1/2 and still has accidents. Yesterday he peed on the floor at the pharmacy (pharmacist was arguing with me - served him right). Are you sure it is a problem and not just normal power battle over potty training?

My son was resistant to potty training until we stopped trying to talk him into it. We changed to conversation to "choices". "Do you want ot wear a pull up today or big boy underwear?" If he said a pull up - well that was just fine - put it on and no more discussion. After a few days he started choosing big boy underwear and improving with making it to the potty - but we still have accidents.

[thelowlanders]

Yes, she is in pull ups. She has figured out in even one piece outfits to pull over pull up through clothes. That's what she did last night on friend's bed.

As for removing priviledges, she is what I call a good "acclimater". She gets to where it's "Good, I didn't want that anyway" attitude. For 6 months now, nothing effects her.

She's also a control seeker. So, shower = more one on one time. Clean up own mess = more time focused on her, etc. I just sat her down pee and all on the bathroom floor, and said we will continue to have a fun night w/ our friends and you will sit here until I am ready to go and clean you up. Asked her who made the choice to miss out on fun night. She said "me". I'm trying to take the control away from her, otherwise I would have stopped everything and been undressing, cleaning, redressing, laying down, etc. HER. Not being with our friends or other children. That is what she wanted.

What do you think? I feel I took some control away, but still not sure if just doing that is going to make her stop. It hasn't yet... I need ideas

[chevyjewel]

Do you guys have access to any child therapists or behaviorists that could help you gain some insight as to why she's doing this or how to stop it? Usually they have GREAT ideas.

I have no clue what else to suggest beyond them. Hopefully someone else here will.


ETA - has her case worker advised you on any way to deal with this?

[thelowlanders]

c.a. You're right. She'll be 3 next week.

I understand accidents and power struggles. But...since day 2 of having her, we had puddle on stair and her sitting next to it. Diaper dry, stair not so dry. She had pulled her pants down to do this.

I say "just a minute" to her for something like cup of milk, so I can finish helping one of the other kids. She proceeds to go to open, obvious place....pull her pants down or pull up over....and urinate....Then stand right next to it with smirk on face until I come across her and her special offering.

Just to name a few instances. I really need to move past this with her.

[thelowlanders]

I've met with many. They all generally say the same thing....

No emotional response, no extra attention, just clean her up and move on. With these responses, they say the behavior will just go away. ***poof***

6 months later....still not happening.

[manderzmcg79]

Okay, so I'm totally NOT a parent and am not knowledgable (sp?) about potty training etc. However--I do work with adults who are developmentally disabled and have dealt with my fair share of intentional puddling and painting

Ignoring it, doesn't seem to ever work if you ask me.

We've had luck being firm (very firm) and forcing our clients to clean their own mess. Usually we send a staff member in that particular person doesn't like so much (is there a person she'd rather NOT have attention from?). That way we prevent the attention seeking behavior :P IF it warrants bathing, we too force them to shower themselves--we do NOTHING to assist them, do not even talk with them except to instruct.

So... yeah, beyond that, no clue that is within the range of acceptable behavior from parental units

[CaddoRose]

I have a friend with a 3 yr old who does the same thing and it's her bio child. Not to the extent that you are having, but she does it when she doesn't like to wait or is put in time out,etc. They are trying to use a gymnastic body suit made form lycra with legs on it. even if she manages to get the pull up pulled to the side, she can't really get all of the body suit out of the way and so she pees on herself. So far, she doesn't like that. It gives the Mom a chance to let the daughter deal with the entire cleaning up part herself. Here's a link to the type of clothing I'm talking about.

Gymnastics Unitard - Style #: ML2712 - Dancewear Solutions

The other think she does is take the daughter to the bathroom every hour to pee. I know that's not always feasible, but it can lessen her ability to do it on demand.

I think you are correct about it being a control issue and not like other kids who happen to pee on accident. This is deliberate soiling to show you who's in charge. I would take away everything and her ability to move about the house freely right away. She has to earn them back. If that means restricting her to a chair while you cook dinner, then that's what it is.

[jbee]

if it is just the leotard with the reg. top and the legged shorts bottoms they have them at our wal mart and target cheaper than a dance store. we have also found them at thrift shops and yard sales for our dds' gymnastics.

[respitemom2]

When our youngest adopted daughter came to us(almost three) with control as her motivation for every situation she wanted to win, we used the "pratcie method" when ignoring a situation got us nowhere. "Oh, I see you still haven't figured out where your pee goes. Come on I'll show you where it goes." Bring her to the toilet and have her "practice" going to the bathroom. Every single step of the process. (And if I was too busy at the time for "practice" then, we would do it later, when it was a good time for me). We practiced A LOT, but it became no fun for her to pee where she knew shouldn't when every time she had to "practice" peeing where she should! A lot of work, but so it cleaning up pee messes everywhere and at least I had the control

[thelowlanders]

I like the pratcie method. but with this one it doesn't work. It's exactly what she wants. You to herself. Even if for a few seconds extra.

The leotard another good one. This girl, has peed while sitting on barstool after hearing about upcoming visit in an hour (my boys accidentally mentioned it) and proceeded to get down and sit in the middle of the pool and play with toys. To my amazement when I came around the corner.

She really has me stumped. All the things that work for others she is immune to. She has lost priviledge of free roam of the house, but it only takes one second of going to pantry while cooking and ***bam*** a new puddle if I didn't obey Princess FD's every whim.

PLEASE...Keep the ideas coming. there's gotta be something that will work. we did have 1 month no visits. That worked. But I don't have a vote in that matter

[kxl164]

If she wants your attention and time, then make her clean it up on her own and make sure you are doing something very fun with the other children, or even better for yourself. Let her see you, if you can, spending time with the others. Check on her after a few minutes, like 10, when you see how little she has progressed, then say, "It is a shame you can't join us since you haven't cleaned up yet, keep trying." And then go back and have fun again, keep doing that, after about 3 times, if it still isn't clean, just ignore that and thank her for cleaning up then make her clean herself. You can be in the room with her, of course, but bring a book and make her wash her own body (she is capable by this age). She will probably act out, splash around, whatever, ignore that and read or listen to music whatever, then thank her for cleaning herself up and make her dry herself. She will not like being wet, will probably do a bad job, keep focusing on yourself and make her responsible for drying her body. Again, she will probably do a bad job, then put her in a pull up or whatever, and give her her clothes to get dressed. She can get dressed in the same room as you, but again make sure you are doing something for yourself or something fun with the other kids so she can see. If she resists, say that's ok, you can tantrum here until you are ready to get dressed.

I think you get the pattern.

It is REALLY hard to do this, but it worked for my son who wanted the same thing your foster daughter wants. He wanted my attention on him, positive or negative, and I finally said NO.

Just keep her away from the TV and I don't suggest reading as a "fun" activity with the other kids unless she really likes to look at the pictures, because then she is being included too.

Doing this gives her your presence, but not your attention. You are not leaving her, but you are also feeding in to her need for control.

Again, this is hard and you have to totally be committed for it work, but within a week we can change any negative behavior he dishes out.

The bad side is that he does come up with new behaviors... but the positive reinforcement for good behavior outweighs the need for the negative over time, well at least it did for us.

Good Luck!

[Whistler]

One thing I try with my attention-loving 3-year-old (ok, just turned 4) is giving her bunches of positive attention when she is NOT acting out aand telling her it is because she isn't acting out she's getting the attention. When she does act out it's exactly what you are doing... no attention, no control, loss of priviledges, etc.

But when I am trying to extinguish an attention-seeking behavior I have found that it helps to give her oodles of extra attention and reinforce the "good" times. She has a need, a lack in her life and is telling me in the only way she knows how. She needs that attention. So I give it to her in a way that will reinforce appropriate methods of asking.

We worked for EVER on saying please. It was a huge power struggle because she didn't want to do it my way. But once she did and she found that she consistently was getting the attention she craved from me when she used it, she quit doing the other behavior and started using please. Now, she was still demanding attention inappropriately but it was a step in the right direction. The next step was waiting patiently for one minute (a set amount of time...we used a timer) then she would get my attention. Then it was five minutes. But through all that I tried to communicate to her that she could be secure in the fact that I wasn't going to ignore her forever. But the attention would not be entirely on her terms either.