[kharrison]

Hi all I need some advice really bad.... I have recently adopted 2 of my 5 foster children. I have one that really worries me. Here goes if you have a diagnosis please let me know I am considering taking her to her ped. to ask for help but I figured I would ask ya'll first...
She is 3 years old I got her when she was 9mnths old. If she doesnt get her way she will scream, scratch herself throw things, kick ,pinch until she makes herself throw up. I have tried everything I am a director of a childcare center and have been for a long time and I have also had lots of fostr children and I have never seen anything like this....I mean spanking DOESNT even help.... The ONLY that does is if she gets her way. Yesterday she screamed for 35 minutes and threw up twice until my husband finally gave her her way.I mean after it is all over you can ask her why she got her way and she will say because she threw a fit....So any advice would be GREAT!!!!!!!!!! I mean I am afraid she will grow up and cut herself or something...Could this be RAD or just plain SPOILED??????
Thanx
Kim

[lucyjoy]

Sounds like learned behavior. She's doing it because it's working and she knows it. Giving in because she's having a fit only reenforces the behavior and will make it a lot harder to break it.

[buttascotchbaby]

I am niot sure if this will help or not, but years ago when I ran a home based day care I had a little boy who liked to make himself thow up. Lovely on our shag carpeting

I finally put him in the kitchen (where the floor was lino!), closed the door (and stood right outside, peeking at him to make sure he didn't hurt himself), waited until he was finished, took him out, cleaned him up and basically ignored the behavior. This only happened, I think, one more time and he stopped. He did not get the results he was after.

If you are reinforcing the behavior by giving into it, or, indeed, reacting in any way (positive or negative) the behavior will continue.

See what I have learned after having my kids in therapy for almost three years? LOL

[hkolln]

Sounds like in her perspective:

1) I scream, kick, fight, throwup, etc...
2) I then get what I want!

So unless you are stern and ignore the behaviour then it will only get worse. Our niece did something similar to this when she came here last year. SHe would scream, cry, throw things, bang things, etc....but I would tell her to go to her room (and if she didn't I would place her there and shut the door)....and I would allow her to calm down...while telling her "Once you are calm you can come out and talk about it" I also let her know her behaviour would not get her anything. The trick is to not let it look like it bothers you...stay calm and ignore it...even if you have to isolate her where she can't hurt herself. It took about 6 months of doing that and it was like twice a week for her in the beginning, then down to once a month and she hasn't done it in the past 4 or so months.

Don't give her what she wants and she won't continue the behaviour. It will take alot of time...she obviously learned it from someone. So, be patient and do the same thing everytime.

[stevenstwin]

I agree with the other posters, but have to add that I don't think spanking is a good idea. As you have noted, it doesn't work. I'm assuming this child was abused...in which case spanking isn't going to "mean" anything corrective, it is just going to be a reinforcer that the world is not a very safe place.

[ProspectiveSingleMom]

It may just be a learned behavior, but I would mention to her Dr. just in case it is something more. Are there any other problems besides the tantrums? Is she developmentally on-track? Any other unusual behaviors when she is not having a tantrum? Does this happen every single time she doesn't get her way, or just part of the time?

There are a lot of disorders that could cause a child to have severe tantrums like you describe, but the tantrums would never be the only symptom.

[dakotabluebaby]

I work as a behavioral consultant. First things first get her to a ped. to find out if there are mulitple things going on.

Secondly they way we teach behavior with a child learning to say...go to the bathroom. We praise pulling down pants, then sitting, then start of success (even if bathroom is requested 1/2 way through) then full successes. Then we would stop. also along the line we continue to remind our kids to go, or partial steps, but we never walk through the whole thing...only as much as works.

Trantrums are built a similar way.
First we cry...did it work?
bang our feet....hit our hands...pull our hair... attack objects or others...and so on.

We will stop at whatever level works, or try the next.

By giving in when it gets so far we learn that if we keep escalating we will eventually get what we want. She will only trantrum until she gets what she wants.

You have two choices. Give her what she wants as soon as she cries a little. OR
Stop giving in all together, no matter how upset she gets.
You must choose one or the other, otherwise she will learn a new level in which she will get what she wants. I would recomend putting her in the kitchen or the tub. Sit with her, speak in a low calm voice (even if you can't hear yourself) avoid eye contact. Help her but do not respond to anything she does or says except calmly remind her she needs to be calm and keep her safe, when the trantrum is over and she speaks calmly, then give her a really great alternative for a while since she pulled herself together. Work from there.
AND be forwarned she may tantrum at first for an hour, but it will get better. if you give in it will get worse...meaning longer.

If you are consistent the severity of the problem should drop dramatically in a few weeks. We only do what works. Right now its working for her.

Also, punishment does not work unless paired with an alternative. Spanking will stop a problem for the moment, maybe. It is not a solution despite what our fathers told us. Hope this helps!

[xxsurroundedbyxy]

She has found what works for her. Maybe she just cried and screamed for 5-10 minutes at first and when that didn't work the next time she added the kicking and pinching and tagged on another 5-10 minutes. When that didn't work after awhile she added the vomit and some more serious screaming for another 10-15 minutes.

Now she is a complete tantrum thrower and it lasts for 30+ minutes. HOWEVER....in the end....she still got what she wanted.

So, essentially, you have taught her to just keep on going no matter how long it takes.

It will take lots of nerve, willpower, and calm-headedness to overcome but you will have to ignore and clean-up silently and NOT give in. Pretty soon she will try it for 30 minutes and give up, then 20 minutes and give up, then 10 minutes and give up until finally she realizes that you actually mean what you say and will stop it altogether.

Good Luck!

Kim

[CaddoRose]

In addition to what everyone else has said, I would say to not talk to her while she is throwing a fit. The more you talk, or try to get her to stop,the more attention you are giving her.

Start everyday off by explaing to her that there are going to be changes. Let her know that when she throws a fit two things will happen. One, she will lose her prized possession and two, she will sit in tiimeout for 3 minutes. Explain to her the consequences clearly if she throws a fit. If her prized possession is a doll, then tell her the doll is gone for the rest of the day. Let her know that from this day on, throwing a fit won't get her anything. If she breaks the rules, then it's into the chair for 3 minutes with no sounds at all. Time starts when she gets quiet. When you put her in timeout the first time, tell her why she is there in as few words as possible. Next time say nothing.

She will continue to throw a fit it, but you have to follow through with everything you told her. I warn you that you might have to take her to the chair 100 times and it might go on for hours, but you can't give in. If you do, she is learning that she is in control. If you think it is hard now, what will she be like when she's 6, 12 or 15? You have to stop this behavior now. You are the adult, older and stronger than a 3 yr old.

You can do it. As Kim says, stay cool headed, calm and just do it.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by xxsurroundedbyxy

She has found what works for her. Maybe she just cried and screamed for 5-10 minutes at first and when that didn't work the next time she added the kicking and pinching and tagged on another 5-10 minutes. When that didn't work after awhile she added the vomit and some more serious screaming for another 10-15 minutes.

Now she is a complete tantrum thrower and it lasts for 30+ minutes. HOWEVER....in the end....she still got what she wanted.

So, essentially, you have taught her to just keep on going no matter how long it takes.

It will take lots of nerve, willpower, and calm-headedness to overcome but you will have to ignore and clean-up silently and NOT give in. Pretty soon she will try it for 30 minutes and give up, then 20 minutes and give up, then 10 minutes and give up until finally she realizes that you actually mean what you say and will stop it altogether.

Good Luck!

Kim

I agree-let the tantrum roll. Ignore ignore. I suggest that the child help with cleanup, however. Keep a "flat affect" show no reaction whatsoever as best you can.

We began using the "cool down room" at our school at my suggestion, based on a student I had at another school. The rampaging student is "helped" to the cool down room-a physicallly safe place-and is placed there with a non-reacting adult. Time is kept. The amount of time spent tantruming had to be "paid back" by good behavior in the cool down room to earn the right to return to classroom. It worked-children with very severe behaviors-the kind that required an ambulance-stopped tantruming at school and now can participate in regular ed. in the middle school.

I agree with other posters-put her in a safe place- and just let it run it's course. She'll get exhausted eventually, and her tummy will hurt from the throwing up. It's hard at first, truly, but you can do it. And it will get better. Not right away, but it will get better. If possible, have child help with cleanup of the puke or whatever damage/mess is made during tantrum. That helps too, and keep a flat affect during cleanup-resist the urge to discuss the tantrum.

Lastly, after all cleanup is done, and everyone is calm, discuss three things. 1. Why did the tantrum happen, 3. what was the result (hopefully child did not get what was wanted!) and 3. what can be done differently next time-use our words, wait our turn, etc.

Will be thinking of you--good luck!!

[MamaS]

My youngest was a tantrum-thrower when she arrived (at age 4). After "waiting-out" a couple that lasted 45+ minutes and included throwing up, I did a "time-out". I carried her into the bathroom, set her in the shower, turned the water on (cool) and suggested she "cool off and calm down". The cold water brought her out of the tantrum real fast! After drying off and changing clothes we were able to talk about why Mom said no. The next time a tantrum started, all I had to do is ask "Do you need to go cool off?" and it scaled back to a whine!

[blau5]

Just something I saw on John and Kate plus 8 when one of their sextuplets gets upset, she throws up. They give her a bucket then Kate makes her remain in her throw-up clothes the rest of the day. I don't know if that would work or not, but I do agree with everyone else about not giving in.

[tvs4]

I agree with the others that is sounds like she learned how to work the tantrum thing. What we did with our toddlers was when they would start to excellerate into a fit we would place them calmly in a safe place - like their room which was baby proofed - and say very calmly "when you are done having a fit come and find me and I will talk to you". then walk out and shut the door. We NEVER gave into fits. Didn't matter how much they screamed and we did have a puker too. I think the trick is to remain very calm as they accelerate. Let them know it is not working. If you are afraid she will hurt herself then I would be very sure the room is safe of any objects she could hurt herself with and I'd put a video monitor in the room so you could monitor her while she screams, yells, etc.

Since she also seems very articulate I would talk to her when she is calm, before a fit, and say "I know when you get angry you do X, Y, Z. We don't act that way in this house. When we say "no" we mean "no" and if you have a fit we will put you in your room until you calm down." Go over the rules every day when she is calm. You might also try to stop the fit before it starts by saying things like "I know you want a cookie/toy/whatever, but I am going to say "no" which makes you mad. So go please go to your room now to scream and yell and when you are calm again please come talk to me". Takes all the power away from her having a tantrum if you tell her when to do it.

Finally, I would praise her when you deny her something and she dosen't have a fit. You can say things like "I know you were angry when I said "no" and I'm so glad that you didn't cry or scream. that makes me very happy."

good luck.

[Robbin]

I agree with previous posters. Unfortunately by giving in after 35 minutes, you have "taught" her to tantrum LONGER to get her own way.

When you implement whatever you will be doing, expect a BIG increase in behaviors and duration of the tantrums for a few days, then it will DECREASE dramatically...so stay with it for at least two weeks, it will be worth it, believe me.

Have you tried 1-2-3 Magic by Thomas Phelan? It works great for us.

1. I would loosely keep track of the tantrums and see if she has any antecedents (behaviors/activities/surroundings/time of day) that seem to precede the incident. If you can find some kind of pattern, try to intercede before it escalates.

I wish you the best of Luck...it will be a little rocky, but you CAN get through it

[timleenettesue]

I first found this out when our now three year old threw up so much I didn't know where to start to clean him up, so I put him in the shower to rinse him off. His tantrum stopped real fast. Now when he has a tantrum I just tell him to go ahead and throw up (in the toilet) or go sit in the tub. He will actually do this to try to see if it will work. The less we talk to him the shorter the tantrum. He came to us at age 7 1/2 months and has been able to throw up on demand from the beginning.

Don't ever give in. Our first placement was a five year old that would rage for hours. He once had a tantrum that lasted FIVE hours on our way home from our cabin. It does get better, but it will take a lot of patients and a lot of time.

HUGS